Coordinated turns vs. FM

[SnowTiger]

Interesting !

I'm definitely going to tinker with that. I'm not sure why I have never messed with Saturation ? Maybe because it Sounds a bit like something to do with Margarine ? !!

 

I can't wait to try this out.

Thanks a ton.

[Nichts]

I bank slightly, apply rudder to keep the ball + string centered, try to keep the pitch attitude stable. The helo reacts accordingly - for a few moments. Then it rolls back to a horizontal attitude although I keep the cyclic steady (i.e. deflected for the desired amount of banking).

Like someone of Polychop basically already confirmed, it seems to me as if the responsible forces are introduced into the system form the outside, i.e. the SAS ...

I do also think it’s the stabilization system. When I switch off the gyro system, the helicopter behaves somewhat like a Huey – at least it doesn’t try to maintain the 0° pitch/bank.

 

For me, there’s no problem flying this helicopter with the stabilization on as long as I remember how it behaves. Moreover I can use the characteristics for elegant manoeuvres like stopping to hover from a pretty fast sidedrift.

[Cowboy10uk]

Installed an update today on 1.5 open beta. Coordinated turns were no longer a problem, seemed to work perfectly, so I'm guessing there's a FM update in it.

 

Cowboy10uk

[Rogue Trooper]

Hey cowboy10uk,

Do you not have the komodo stick?

I would have thought that this would have been the sweetest of sticks rolling out of a turn.

[golani79]

I've just flown it before and experienced the same behavior - after going into a turn the Gazelle wants to "get back up" in the bank angle.

 

It felt like if I had to fight the helo.

 

Gesendet von meinem ONE A2003 mit Tapatalk

[Rogue Trooper]

I guess it must be a 1.5 thing, nothing like that exists in 2.0 unless you go to extreme bank angles... but this is the same with all DCS chopper modules... just faster.

[golani79]

Gonna try it out in 2.0 tomorrow.

[Rogue Trooper]

it would be nice to get feed back from my reference... the untouched.. unsullied model.... never updated.

 

please put in some respectable hours.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Rogue Trooper

[decipher]

I guess it must be a 1.5 thing, nothing like that exists in 2.0 unless you go to extreme bank angles... but this is the same with all DCS chopper modules... just faster.

 

don't forget that by "dcs 2.0" you mean specifically the nevada map, which is at a higher elevation than the caucasus map. therefore any helicopter will behave differently, due to the difference in altitude and its effect on engine power etc. this is not due to any differences in the DCS 2 codes or anything, just due to actual physics!

[Rogue Trooper]

indeed. but I have a whole hunk of DCS chopper modules to reference the Nevada effect well before the gazelle came along.

Additionally I tried to recreate Afghanistan in Nevada with extreme temperatures.... that was an eye opener let me tell you.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Rogue Trooper

[grunf]

don't forget that by "dcs 2.0" you mean specifically the nevada map, which is at a higher elevation than the caucasus map. therefore any helicopter will behave differently, due to the difference in altitude and its effect on engine power etc. this is not due to any differences in the DCS 2 codes or anything, just due to actual physics!

There are parts of Nevada that are below the sea level (Death Valley).

[Rogue Trooper]

Once 2.0 Nevada came into my DCS world.... I never looked back, my eye was only focused on the future.

[Flagrum]

Installed an update today on 1.5 open beta. Coordinated turns were no longer a problem, seemed to work perfectly, so I'm guessing there's a FM update in it.

 

Cowboy10uk

That is weired - because there was no update. Which DCS version are you running now? Latest is 1.5.3.53279 of 27-may-2016.

 

I guess it must be a 1.5 thing, nothing like that exists in 2.0 unless you go to extreme bank angles... but this is the same with all DCS chopper modules... just faster.

What are exteme bank angles for you? I am trying to fly turns with 30°. Yes, lesser bank angles are less difficult, but afaik 30° is "standard", isn't it? I mean, I want to perform a turn, not a sightseeing tour over half of the map ...

[Rogue Trooper]

60 - 70 degs is extreme, I do like to go to these extremes and of course lift is an issue.

I think 30 degs should not be an issue.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Rogue Trooper

[Chelco]

Hello,

 

Running 1.5 beta (it's the only one where I can turn this chopper).

 

Maybe somebody already mentioned it, but I pull some collective during turns. It works like a charm.

 

Cheers,

[Flagrum]

Running 1.5 beta (it's the only one where I can turn this chopper).

This is also weired ... as 1.5.3 OB and 1.5.3 stable are currently the same.

[Chelco]

I know. I'm not all that clear on versions, but I know that both my 1.5.3s are up to date.

 

Anyway, pull some collective to keep airspeed and coordination.

 

Cheers,

[Fri13]

It has been told by the devs that de SAS has too much authority but that the general FM is really close, it has even been tested by real ALAT gazelle pilots.

 

There are two things in question now:

 

1) Flight Model (FM)

 

2) Input Output (I/O)

 

The flightmodel can be very accurate and just have a small SAS calibration requirement or bug etc. But the I/O can have a something wrong.

 

I find Gazelle way too difficult to fly with a 35cm extension in stick with G940. I can only do 1-2mm control movements or otherwise it will go wild and just roll over. :joystick:

 

I am going to take off the extension to test it with a non-extended stick to see how impossible it is to fly. As the real Gazelle doesn't at all have so sensitive controls as default controls are in the DCS.

 

And this is my grape in DCS, that the default I/O values are way too sensitive for almost everything, and requires far more tweaking by the virtual pilot than they should.

 

Like now if I move the stick 100% around, it hits the virtual limits at about 60% position. Meaning the ratio is closer to 1:2 than 1:1. So what I am going to do with extra 40% movement that I have left in my stick, as I am never going to use that full range. So I need to lower the I/O values so I get it closer 1:1 ratio so that joystick and collective would follow each other as close as possible.

 

While helicopter is sensitive to fly, it is never so sensitive that you just have to hold the stick stationary and helicopter flips over because you just look at it.

New joysticks has now what, a 65536 x 65536 input values? And If the max virtual input range is met at around 40000 and only a 300-1000 range is usable for the extended flight output, it makes it very difficult to fly anything by default as I super easily overcompensate everything, requiring very very stationary movements and tensing the whole arm so I wouldn't move the stick.

 

I have had the thought that the mapping is easy to do so that max input value joystick has, is mapped directly to the max output in the simulator by default. So once your stick hits its physical limit, it hits same limit in the simulator. And this would by default make it far more pleasing to start with. But now it is like the limit is far more sooner and only way to make it in default settings more easier is to use long extension (same angle and input, but just longer travel at the head of the stick) or then simply start playing with the input curves.

 

 

Look at those cyclic movements. I can't even dream about doing so big movements with 35cm extended stick. The whole gazelle goes around if I would do so radical movement as they do in real live in nice smooth speed.

 

So the FM can be accurate, but the I/O can't be, not for me.

And I just tried, in perfect hover if I hit trimmer, gazelle goes crazy and it flips over. I can't even touch the trimmer or otherwise it does something totally own crazy thing and just flips. In nice 120kph forward flight, pressing trimmer causes it to roll over 180 degree so in 2-3 seconds I am upside down without moving stick at all.

 

But that can be problem of FF not being implemented for FF sticks, so it is a centered-trimming for spring joysticks.

[Mt5_Roie]

 

But that can be problem of FF not being implemented for FF sticks, so it is a centered-trimming for spring joysticks.

 

It's in the works.

[Fri13]

It's in the works.

Glad to hear!

 

Is there possibility to have more effects available that KA-50 has or are those only available what DCS itself supports?

[Mt5_Roie]

It depends on the code. I just received one of the two sidewinders we'll be using for testing, but it's the serial cable version so ordered a usb adapter for it. Once I have it up and running I'm sending it to our main coder who's working on getting the FFB coded. I have another second one coming for me to use for testing as well.

 

I'm not familiar with what the KA-50 has right now, but when I get my sidewinder I'll test out it's use with the current helicopters and see what we can implement.

 

Glad to hear!

 

Is there possibility to have more effects available that KA-50 has or are those only available what DCS itself supports?

[Fri13]

It depends on the code. I just received one of the two sidewinders we'll be using for testing, but it's the serial cable version so ordered a usb adapter for it. Once I have it up and running I'm sending it to our main coder who's working on getting the FFB coded. I have another second one coming for me to use for testing as well.

 

I'm not familiar with what the KA-50 has right now, but when I get my sidewinder I'll test out it's use with the current helicopters and see what we can implement.

IF i remember correctly, the sidewinder program itself has the effect list easily available so you can feel how different functions worked. Last time when i used sidewinder was when red Baron II came out and sidewinder II.

 

And Logitech G940 has similar as well but it is in Windows calibration tool. So when you press different buttons it does different effects.

 

And what many FF user would like is different effects for weapons like naturally cannon, rockets and missiles has different profile. A shakes, stalls and so on.

 

With a ka-50 if testing, SimFFB program here at forums is great to feel how FF effects works better as it gives very special friction and force and possibility have no centering.

 

And as bonus if possible to consider for G940 owners of to add support for three color codes for buttons in that HOTAS. There is a small script at UH-1H forum that adds that support and just changing few lines it works for ka-50, so if possible get it work out of box, it would be great.

 

FF is great for many but very valuable for helicopter simmers as it's really giving great experience.

 

So thanks for improving it in future!

[Ramsay]

I just received one of the two sidewinders we'll be using for testing, but it's the serial cable version so ordered a usb adapter for it. Once I have it up and running I'm sending it to our main coder who's working on getting the FFB coded. I have another second one coming for me to use for testing as well.

 

Oops, bad luck, I'm not sure if FFB will be supported through the USB adaptor unless it's a custom adaptor.

http://riseofflight.com/forum/topic/45292-ms-sidewinder-ffb-pro-working-usb-adapter/%3Ca%20href

 

The Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 is USB, works with the default Window 7, etc. drivers and was the one you wanted. It goes for about £45 (60 euro) on ebay.

[Mt5_Roie]

Will test and let you know...the adapter I ordered is specific for joysticks. So here's hoping. Otherwise I'll look for more sidewinders.

 

Oops, bad luck, I'm not sure if FFB will be supported through the USB adaptor unless it's a custom adaptor.

http://riseofflight.com/forum/topic/45292-ms-sidewinder-ffb-pro-working-usb-adapter/%3Ca%20href

 

The Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 is USB, works with the default Window 7, etc. drivers and was the one you wanted. It goes for about £45 (60 euro) on ebay.

[SnowTiger]

This is not a great video re: Quality

but starting at about 1:55 minutes, you can see a wee bit of Cyclic "stick" handling at high speeds.

There is a bit more motion of travel of the stick than I would have thought.