A suggestion for 'improving' toggle switches in the 3D cockpit

Hi all,

I have a pet peeve regarding the way ED has implemented the toggle switch logic in the 3D cockpit. It's been percolating within me for a good few months now.

At present a virtual pilot has two options when manipulating toggle switches via the mouse: Left-click and right-click. Assuming the virtual pilot's point of view, left-click typically moves the toggle switch 'up' or 'forward', and right-click typically moves the toggle switch 'down' or 'aft'.

Currently the switch logic is such that all toggle switches are cyclic in nature, i.e. if you keep left-clicking or right-clicking eventually you will traverse through the entire range of switch states. I find this implementation objectionable, especially for three-way toggle switches. This is because technically you cannot push a three-state toggle switch any further 'up' or 'forward' if it is already toggled to the 'up' or 'forward' position. No matter how hard you try, you can't continue moving the switch in one direction with the vain hope that it will somehow reset the cycle anew.

Allow me to explain further with a picture. Keep in mind that two and three-stage toggle switches in the 3D cockpit move 'up/forward' when left-clicked, and 'down/aft' when and right-clicked.

As you can see, if you keep left-clicking (or right-clicking), you can cycle through each of the toggle switch states in an unrealistic manner.

So why do I care? Three reasons:

1. I like consistency. If left-click means 'up/forward', that's all it should do. No switch 'reset' functionality should be modelled.
   
2. Toggle switches aren't magic. They have states that you move 'up' and 'down' between. You can't push or pull the switch for a full 360° and expect it to eventually reset to its initial state.
   
3. Sometimes I forget whether I have a toggle switch set to the 'on' (or whatever) position, and wrangling with TrackIR can often make visually confirming the switch's state difficult. In these cases I like to push the switch 'up' to confirm that it is indeed 'on', but unfortunately this often switches it 'off' for reasons outlined above. Admittedly this is a problem that can be solved by taking a moment to look harder, or by checking the Caution Light Panel, HUD and the various other displays etc., which is why I put it last.
   

My solution?

1. Model the physical limitations of toggle switches (and all switches really). They can only move so far in either direction before stopping.
   
2. Maintain the consistency of the current left-click/right-click system when interfacing with toggle switches. The only exception might be rotatory knobs which currently work in the opposite manner (left-click is 'down/aft', right-click is 'up/forward'), presumably to simulate moving your fingers in the direction of rotation (?).
   

Of course all of this is predicated on the notion that 'up/forward' and 'down/aft' actually mean something when we are clicking switches/knobs using the mouse interface! I personally think it does mean something (and ED would seem to agree if you take into account the rotary knob modelling), but if the reader and ED don't really care, what I'm saying will seem utterly silly.

I know some people will like the ability to teleport instantly from one switch state to the next, and some will say I should simply get used to it. To them I say fair enough — I'm not saying it has to be this way, I just feel it seems a little logically inconsistent and does't strictly correspond to the real world.

Well, there you have it. That's my pet-peeve.

Remember, it wouldn't be a pet-peeve if it was major issue that affected my enjoyment of the game. :thumbsup:

Great idea. I've been thinking the same thing ever since I bought this game. I often look down real quick and click a switch thinking it's down, when actually it's in the center position. This couldn't be too hard to reprogram, could it?

Please don't do this ED - or if - leave the option to switch to the surrent modelling !

Because: I use a touchscreen to manipulate the cockpit (directly - without Helios).

This has been bothering me since KA-50, and I completely agree. The switches are designed specifically so there's power states you have to go through before you can turn something off - for example, a radar power switch/knob will have 'Standby' before 'Off', so you can't just slam it off.

I brought this up before regarding the emergency handles and I got a lot of criticism for it and I still don't understand why.

Here's how I think the cockpit interface should work:

All emergency handles and controls (specifically the emer jett, fire handles, canopy jettison... maybe not the emergency control panel) are only actuated by right-clicks, specifically so an errant left-click doesn't immediately blow your canopy off, or shut down your engine, or something. It's happened to me before while messing with the UFC, an errant click and my left engine has no more fuel.

This can hardly even be claimed to be mere user error, as the specific design and pull tests of all of these handles is done specifically so that a real-life pilot cannot accidentally actuate them. Many emergency handles are double-actions and you have to rotate them after you pull. It's also kind of ridiculous to simulate stabbing a button with a finger and grasping an entire handle and yanking it with the same button, right next to each other.

All switches and knobs should have their 'stops' modeled as mentioned in the OP. I also personally think the radio knobs need to be changed to operate clockwise / counterclockwise as they should, to be consistent with every other knob in the cockpit. If you're not sure what I'm talking about, right-clicking a knob (say, the IFF mode select knob) will rotate it cockwise (the top goes to the right), and left-clicking will turn it counter-clockwise. This is consistent with every knob in the cockpit except the radio frequency knobs. In real life, you turn these knobs counter-clockwise to advance the frequency, whereas in the sim, you inexplicably right-click the knob (which should turn it clockwise) which causes the knob to rotate in the opposite direction (counter-) and advances the number on the dial. This is incorrect.

Finally, in the spirit of fidelity and preventing accidents, I personally think the switch safety features should be modeled as well. If a switch has a spring-loaded cover (such as the engine masters on the F-15), you should have a limited time to actuate the switch before the cover automatically closes.

If the switch has a built-in stopper (in the A-10, on the IFFCC switch) you should have to hold the 'click' action on the switch for about half a second to lift the switch over the stop. In the case of the IFFCC, I believe the stopper allows a smooth action from 'OFF' to 'TEST' (no lifting required) but to move it from 'TEST' to 'OFF' you have to lift it up (this is because there's no harm in accidentally turning it ON).

These aren't features because I'm a spaz and mis-click, these are real life safety features specifically because the USAF doesn't want a pilot to mistakenly turn off his IFFCC. If a real pilot can somehow accidentally move his hand over to the control panel and pop the switch off, it's not unreasonable that a mistake like that can be made in the sim, and as such modeling the switch stoppers would add a little bit more fidelity to the game as well as prevent accidents. There's been a couple of times I've flipped a switch because it was hard to tell if the switch was actually in the center position or not.

Anyway, that's my take on it.

Can't add much, I agree fully this has also annoyed me while playing the game and I would really like to see a redesign on how the switches do work in game. What we have now really feels half done.

Crescendo, you laid this out perfectly and way better than I would have done if I was to address the phenomenom, so thank you!

And the point raised by Frostiken really illustrates the sense of having correct switches.

As I stumbled over the "strange behaviour" myself, I can only second the need for a change here. I find it hard to wrap my mind around these switches and dials you can whirl around like your HSI course knop.

OT:

First "real" post here on the forums. Been actively learning the sim for about two weeks now, but here is my official "Hello!"

Supersheep

Thanks for the replies, all. I have to admit I thought this topic might have delved too far into minutiae, so I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds it annoying.

All emergency handles and controls (specifically the emer jett, fire handles, canopy jettison... maybe not the emergency control panel) are only actuated by right-clicks, specifically so an errant left-click doesn't immediately blow your canopy off, or shut down your engine, or something.

I essentially agree with this, but with slight reservations about remaining consistent with the left-click 'up/forward' and right-click 'down/aft' convention. I think right-clicking will work fine for anything you would normally 'pull out' such as the fire handles, but anything you 'push-in' should still require left-clicking.

However, I definitely support the idea of preventing errant mouse-clicks, especially if it simulates actual lockout-type features that would be present in the real jet. With that in mind, maybe instead of right-clicking for 'push-in' emergency switches (such as emergency jettison) you could instead left-click and hold for say 0.5-1.0 seconds?

If you're not sure what I'm talking about, right-clicking a knob (say, the IFF mode select knob) will rotate it cockwise (the top goes to the right), and left-clicking will turn it counter-clockwise. This is consistent with every knob in the cockpit except the radio frequency knobs. In real life, you turn these knobs counter-clockwise to advance the frequency, whereas in the sim, you inexplicably right-click the knob (which should turn it clockwise) which causes the knob to rotate in the opposite direction (counter-) and advances the number on the dial. This is incorrect.

I'm not privy to the correct function of the radio frequency knobs, but I agree 100% based upon your experience.

Regarding the "safety features", ideally I do think they should be modelled if present in the Hog. I know I've accidentally switched off my IFFCC at least once when setting up consent to release parameters. Although that particular instance was a result of left-clicking when I should have right-clicked (which is more to do with the switch logic in my OP), it's just as easy to accidentally right-click when in test mode too.

First "real" post here on the forums. Been actively learning the sim for about two weeks now, but here is my official "Hello!"

Greetings.

I agree completely on this. Might want to add a "One button mouse" option to the gameplay part of the options to allow for touchscreens, or, God, Allah, and Buddha forbid, a Mac.

I have one reason why this might be an issue and should remain the way it is.

Most of the time I would agree, but sometimes, when I want to flip a switch but need both hands on the controls and cannot reach the mouse, I use the mouse device and clicking button on my throttle (saitek X52). This function only works as a left (or right if you so program it) click and therefore would not allow me to "right click".

Yes, the argument could be made that in moments where I must have both hands on the controls at my desk, and therefore, in a real cockpit would also need to have my hands at the controls and would thereby be unable to operate a switch in real life either.

But, I'm sure many people use the Saitek mouse function and this would be problematic for them.

Lastly, I also used this mouse feature a LOT when I didn't have my Trackir system. So, for those who don't have the Trackir (or free equivalent), would likely be more frustrated than those who want realism as it means their ability to actually control the cockpit would suffer.

Note: I'm not against your idea, so don't eat me alive lol. I'm just playing the devil's advocate and pointing out a problem that would need to be included when devising a solution.

What do you guys using touchscreens and mouse devices do when you need to access the IFFCC test mode in-flight (for example)?

If the three-state toggle switch logic is cyclic, wouldn't you be forced to turn the IFFCC off before before switching to test mode? That seems impractical and dangerous.

For this special cases I Have a set-up the touch behaviour like this:

pointing the switch for longer than 0.5sec it will be a right-click instead a left-click.

But this need a lot of concentration and I pause my trackIR before I do this.

So "overriding" the position - and cycling trough the stages is much more comfortable and practical in most cases with a touch-screen.

I also share the opinion - that the switch-logic could be reworked in some points - but It has to be at least practical for touchscreen users.

Who wants to have the full "realism" - should build his own physical panels.

For what ever reason, this thread popped into my head this evening and I got to thinking about it from an implimentation standpoint.

I have no idea how each switch is coded but it seems like they almost have to have there own module, for lack of a better term. If that were the case then each switch would need additional code to test whether a right or left click was allowed based on the switches current position.

Even if everything is similar enough to allow for a bit of cut-and-pasting to speed things up, there are still a lot of switches to recode, bug-check, bug-fix, test...

Seems like it would be hard to justify the time/expense.

Just my thought on the subject, please return to your regular program!;)

Of course, no matter what they did I am still going to manage turn something on or off at the wrong time or leave my canopy somewhere over a beach in Georgia!!:D

I use the mouse device and clicking button on my throttle (saitek X52). This function only works as a left (or right if you so program it) click and therefore would not allow me to "right click".

you know you have both left and right mouse click on the X52 throttle?:music_whistling:

Left click is the botton near the throttle mouse, and right click is the wheel you can press with your left index/major :thumbup:

EDIT: oh.. and +1 for the idea

you know you have both left and right mouse click on the X52 throttle?:music_whistling:

Left click is the botton near the throttle mouse, and right click is the wheel you can press with your left index/major :thumbup:

 

EDIT: oh.. and +1 for the idea

The wheel is programmed to the middle mouse button I thought. Though, I suppose one could change that. Personally, I deactivated that little wheel because I'd bump it when I didn't want it and it is hard to use without moving the wheel too. I dunno. I just don't like using that button. But, that's just me.

Bumping this thread, as this is honestly my #1 request for the series.

In order of priority to me:

1) User-error-proof emergency handles in some form or another.

2) Standardizing cockpit knob and switch controls.

3) No more cyclic switches.

4) Implementing 'realistic' switch action - spring-loaded covers automatically close, time-delay added to switches that have to move over 'stoppers'.

I understand how touchscreens or nonstandard control setups can have issues so I wouldn't mind if this was a control options setting "Enhanced Switches" versus "Standard Switches".

Another suggestion to minimize the impact of this improvemet:

Modify the tooltips over switches to avoid confusion.

These can then be turned per default on so everyone knows about it, and those who turn them off are likely to keep this feature in mind anyway.

Great bump, Frostiken!

Super-

I agree completely on this. Might want to add a "One button mouse" option to the gameplay part of the options to allow for touchscreens, or, God, Allah, and Buddha forbid, a Mac.

I think this is the best way ED should go. :thumbup:

Nothing more to say about.

I think another option(And ED if you're looking make all of these options... well... options so one group of people don't get shafted) would be to use the scroll wheel on the mouse. I use that in my VRS Superhornet mainly. Rotating up moves the switch up and rotating down moves the switch down. I really like it.

I think another option(And ED if you're looking make all of these options... well... options so one group of people don't get shafted) would be to use the scroll wheel on the mouse. I use that in my VRS Superhornet mainly. Rotating up moves the switch up and rotating down moves the switch down. I really like it.

You could mostly relicate that by rebinding your mouse buttons in whatever software it has for DCS: A-10, so MWheel up simulates a right-click, MWheel down is left. This would sort of be confusing on toggles but...

You could mostly relicate that by rebinding your mouse buttons in whatever software it has for DCS: A-10, so MWheel up simulates a right-click, MWheel down is left. This would sort of be confusing on toggles but...

Well I noticed not all of the switches go the same direction when either left clicked or right clicked... would be confusing

I use the mouse device and clicking button on my throttle (saitek X52). This function only works as a left (or right if you so program it) click and therefore would not allow me to "right click".

But you can program the X52's mouse button in Saitek Profile to emulate the left mouse button and with a shift held to emulate the right button and problem solved, no?

+1 here

This would be good to add as an option. If it is an option it adds features without removing any.

I'm in complete agreement with the O.P. If I had a dollar for every time I accidentally clicked a switch down while using the mouse button which normally clicks the switch up ...

I'm right now working at a Autohotkey script that can be used in the cockpit to trigger a right or left click.

It works like this:

Leftclick on a (rotary-)switch and moving the mouse a little up or down while releasing the button:

Move up = right click

Move down = left click

No significant movement within 6square pixels before release = right click

It is still a little buggy in some occasions (turning knobs) but I think I find some time at the Weekend to nail it down.

I have written it with the use on touch-screens in mind - but it works also very good for mouse-only use.

So you will be able to actively move a switch up/or down by a mouse gesture instead of thinking about to use the left or right mouse button.

Here is a little showcase if you are wondering what Autohotkey is and what you can do with it in DCS:

Possible to Do Multiple Commands with One Press in DCS?