DCS Mirage 2000C Discussion

Hook47 · November 30, 2015

honestly the MiG doesnt stand a real chance against the Mirage face to face. Just get over it.

It's only chance is to sneak behind it, but then I can stab Klitchko from behind

That's what all the Eagle pilots said before the 21 released. . . Did you miss the Tacview? Looks like they stood a chance to me.

To summarize Mirage 2000 c Vs MiG 21, Mirage has:
- better instantaneous turn rate
- better sustain turn rate
- better flight control system
- better visibility
- better radar
- 4 missiles Vs 6 but Mirage's missile have wider firing envelope and bigger warhead (by large)

The MiG 21 has :
- more (inferior) missiles
- more flares

Can the MiG 21 kill Mirage 2000 C ?
Yes, in dogfight everything can happen. This is why western forces put so much emphasis on BVR weapons and tactics, to use their advantage in electronic over Warsaw Pact forces.

It will be all about tactics (ambush CAP, SAM traps etc...).
This is what we see in YouTube videos of F-15's kills by MiG 21 : the MiG 21 doesn't outmaneuver the F-15. But if the F-15 loose SA it can be killed...the same for Mirage 2000 C, it's about SA and energy management.

What matters is not if a MiG 21 can get a kill from time to time, it's kill ratio that gives an idea of aircraft proficiency.

8 Missiles, guys, 8!!!! The Mig can carry 4 R-60s and 4-R-60Ms!!!

Agree with most of your pros and cons.

nice comparison. to me the MiG21 has effectively also 4 missles. A pair of R60 is worth 1 missile.

PS: I love my MiG. i m flying it almost exclusively in DCS

I disagree, the R-60 is an agile and effective missile despite being a bit older. The only draw back is the small warhead but it almost always put the bad guy out of the fight, whether it kills them or not. A pair of R-60s is worth two missiles lol.

Also worth noting, carrying twin R-60s on a pylon does have quite tangible impact on MiG's flight characteristics. Mirage is already much better in flight performance, why widen the gap further with 6 missiles? :)

If this is a major factor for you I would recommend changing how you fire your weapons. If you ensure that you switch your next missile to the opposite pylon of the one you just fired the MiG 21 maintains very controllable flight characteristics. If you fire two missiles off the same wing, in a row, you are doing it wrong!Only weapon this is a major factor for is the KH-66 Grom, and it is not used in dog fights.

I don't know if I totally agree that the Mirage is MUCH better in flight performance. The Fishbed can and will tangle with a F-16 in the merge. I actually find F-15s beatable in the merge, unless the pilot is smart enough to keep it vertical, in which case he will have a good advantage (when flown by players, not AI). The Mirage has a snappy role rate and perhaps a better sustained turn, but it has only a small climb advantage if any. It is slightly better, but not much better from what I can tell. And since a skilled Fishbed pilot can tangle with a Falcon, Eagle or Fulcrum and come out on top or at least alive by shot denial, if he is smart, the M2000 is certainly doable. As a frequent online MiG flier I find the Fulcrum and Flanker to be the biggest threat in the merge currently, thanks to that deadly HMD and high off-boresight R-77, I will usually run from them when I would stand and turn with an Eagle.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Hook47

jojo · November 30, 2015

You're talking about AI F-16 right ?

Anyway you will discover soon enough :music_whistling:

cameleon33 · November 30, 2015

Hello guys,

Really looking forward to this module. Just wondering... with DCS World 1.2, DCS World 1.5 Open Beta and DCS World 2 Open Alpha; on which one are you going to launch M2000C?

Will it work on all of them? I guess we'll need an update of each version to include the new module...

Cam'

dartuil · November 30, 2015

Hello guys,

Really looking forward to this module. Just wondering... with DCS World 1.2, DCS World 1.5 Open Beta and DCS World 2 Open Alpha; on which one are you going to launch M2000C?

Will it work on all of them? I guess we'll need an update of each version to include the new module...

Cam'

+1

Hook47 · November 30, 2015

You're talking about AI F-16 right ?

Anyway you will discover soon enough :music_whistling:

Is there. DCS: F-16 release I missed somewhere? That would be a nice surprise

Muppetlord · November 30, 2015

Hello guys,

Really looking forward to this module. Just wondering... with DCS World 1.2, DCS World 1.5 Open Beta and DCS World 2 Open Alpha; on which one are you going to launch M2000C?

Will it work on all of them? I guess we'll need an update of each version to include the new module...

Cam'

I was confused enough when there was only two versions...but three...uhh..:(

My poor SSD...

jojo · November 30, 2015

Is there. DCS: F-16 release I missed somewhere? That would be a nice surprise

Yeeessss, you're such a great MiG pilot killing AI F-16 ! What does it prove ?

Do you know if DCS AI F-16 has good flight model ? When I see what they did with AI Mirage 2000 I have doubts...we saw DCS MiG 15 killing AI Mirage 2000. So why not MiG 21 killing AI F-16 ?

Your prowess against AI F-16 prove nothing about MiG 21 Bis value.

Hook47 · November 30, 2015

Yeeessss, you're such a great MiG pilot killing AI F-16 ! What does it prove ?

Do you know if DCS AI F-16 has good flight model ? When I see what they did with AI Mirage 2000 I have doubts...we saw DCS MiG 15 killing AI Mirage 2000. So why not MiG 21 killing AI F-16 ?

Your prowess against AI F-16 prove nothing about MiG 21 Bis value.

Look who is getting all abrasive! Chill out, dude, no reason to take it personally. Sounds like you really don't like the MiG

The MiG 21 is capable of engaging in turn fights with REAL F-16s, so I am not basing that on the AI F-16, I am basing that on the accounts of real USAF pilots.

"MiG-21 had the capability to get into the scissors with you, 110 knots, 60 degrees nose high, go from 10,000 feet to 20,000 feet, very maneuverable airplane..." - USAF Col. Terrence Fornof, Red Flag 2008, F-16 Aviator.

Good enough? Now relax, this is a discussion not a flame war. My point is the MiG 21 will be able to present a threat to the M2000 in the merge and should not be dismissed. It was, is and continues to be a heck of an aircraft despite it's age and deadly in properly trained hands.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Hook47

Boss86005 · November 30, 2015

Is there. DCS: F-16 release I missed somewhere? That would be a nice surprise

Yes, it would be a great surprise! :thumbup:

mattebubben · November 30, 2015

8 Missiles, guys, 8!!!! The Mig can carry 4 R-60s and 4-R-60Ms!!!

From my understanding that is a bug.

From all my research ive come to take it as that the Mig-21 could only carry one P-62-II twin launcher (for 2x R-60s)

On each wing.

So the being able to have 4 R-60s and R-60Ms is just a Loophole.

So while ingame this minute you can use 8 R-60s if you mix them up they is likley to change.

And also with him talking about how the double Pylons impact

flight characteristics to the point where 4 of them might not be ideal is not about the launch imbalance.

Its the Added Weight and Drag of the Twinlaunchers (pylons) Themselves causing loss of preformance.

And also when i talk about this like this i talk about Reality and how things should be ingame and not how it currently is

(with inperfect modeling and bugs etc)

Hook47 · November 30, 2015

From my understanding that is a bug.

From all my research ive come to take it as that the Mig-21 could only carry one P-62-II twin launcher (for 2x R-60s)

On each wing.

So the being able to have 4 R-60s and R-60Ms is just a Loophole.

So while ingame this minute you can use 8 R-60s if you mix them up they is likley to change.

And also with him talking about how the double Pylons impact
flight characteristics to the point where 4 of them might not be ideal is not about the launch imbalance.

Its the Added Weight and Drag of the Twinlaunchers (pylons) Themselves causing loss of preformance.

And also when i talk about this like this i talk about Reality and how things should be ingame and not how it currently is
(with inperfect modeling and bugs etc)

I've found no evidence of it being a bug, and I do not it would be unrealistic for a MiG to either have been able to do this or modified to do so. Either way, I'd prefer to keep the ability as it's nice to have in an aircraft that is often against the odds. In fact I would like to be able to carry 8 R-60Ms, but that doesn't work for some reason.

Even if it is changed, two extra missiles is still a nice advantage in a merge.

Cantiga · November 30, 2015

I've found no evidence of it being a bug, and...

I wrote here, It's quite natural that we assume it as a loadout limitation bug...

If you guys wanna continue discussion for M2K vs Mig, please move to another thread(There is more suitable one: M2000 vs Mig-21)

jojo · November 30, 2015

I have nothing against MiG 21. I'm tired to read your MiG propaganda.

Of course, the F-16 is not to be slow down to 110kt in dogfight.

F-16 is energy fighter, He's not at its best in very low speed/ high AoA, limited to 26deg.

This is the kind of mistake F-16 has to avoid...

Ramsey you're at war alone. I don't even understand why you keep coming here, claiming MiG 21 Bis is better than an aircraft you know nothing about ?

You're not asking questions about Mirage, you're making baseless claims, page after pages, despite evidences people are throwing to you...

Edited December 1, 2015 by jojo

TomCatMucDe · November 30, 2015

That's what all the Eagle pilots said before the 21 released. . . Did you miss the Tacview? Looks like they stood a chance to me.

8 Missiles, guys, 8!!!! The Mig can carry 4 R-60s and 4-R-60Ms!!!

Agree with most of your pros and cons.

I disagree, the R-60 is an agile and effective missile despite being a bit older. The only draw back is the small warhead but it almost always put the bad guy out of the fight, whether it kills them or not. A pair of R-60s is worth two missiles lol.

If this is a major factor for you I would recommend changing how you fire your weapons. If you ensure that you switch your next missile to the opposite pylon of the one you just fired the MiG 21 maintains very controllable flight characteristics. If you fire two missiles off the same wing, in a row, you are doing it wrong!Only weapon this is a major factor for is the KH-66 Grom, and it is not used in dog fights.

I don't know if I totally agree that the Mirage is MUCH better in flight performance. The Fishbed can and will tangle with a F-16 in the merge. I actually find F-15s very beatable in the merge, unless the pilot is smart enough to keep it vertical, in which case he will have a good advantage (when flown by players, not AI). The Mirage has a snappy role rate and perhaps a better sustained turn, but it has only a small climb advantage if any. It is slightly better, but not much better from what I can tell. And since a skilled Fishbed pilot can tangle with a Falcon, Eagle or Fulcrum and come out on top if he is smart, the M2000 is certainly doable. As a frequent online MiG flier I find the Fulcrum and Flanker to be the biggest threat in the merge currently, thanks to that deadly HMD and high off-boresight R-77, I will usually run from them when I would stand and turn with an Eagle.

i m not sure how good you know the R60 missiles you talk about. They are rear aspect. the kill you saw in the Tacview represents nothing as it is AI and is almost impossible to get with a Human pilot. Again, R60 is a rear aspect missile which has a very low kill probability or even a hit from the front.

i dont know what to say about your F15 remark. you seem not to read posts of others till the end.

read again, i said: frontal the mig stands no chance against the F15 and no to little chance against the mirage. The F15 who get shot by the Mig including the one i shoot are always sneaking from behind when the F15 is not paying attention.

in the merge all modern planes have the vertical scan which locks automatically or semi automatically at the turning mig. after this a couple of IR missiles and you are dead. With the Mig you d have to point your nose to your enemy, good luck with that. Ah, also, better do it when with a small intercept angle, otherwise you are wasting your missile.

8 R60 are more than useless, against the mirage you are dead before you should a single one. you d be dead before the merge. even if he misses you, you d never outturn and get into a six of a mirage with such a bulky loadout. a friendly hint, take 2 R3R at least to get a shot or 2 and eventually put him on defensiv while he takes on your wingman.

8xR60 is a handicap, not an advantage

Edited November 30, 2015 by TomCatMucDe

Hook47 · November 30, 2015

i m not sure how good you know the R60 missiles you talk about. They are rear aspect. the kill you saw in the Tacview represents nothing as it is AI and is almost impossible to get with a Human pilot. Again, R60 is a rear aspect missile which has a very low kill probability or even a hit from the front.

i dont know what to say about your F15 remark. you seem not to read posts of others till the end.
read again, i said: frontal the mig stands no chance against the F15 and no to little chance against the mirage. The F15 who get shot by the Mig including the one i shoot are always sneaking from behind when the F15 is not paying attention.

in the merge all modern planes have the vertical scan which locks automatically or semi automatically at the turning mig. after this a couple of IR missiles and you are dead. With the Mig you d have to point your nose to your enemy, good luck with that. Ah, also, better do it when with a small intercept angle, otherwise you are wasting your missile.

8 R60 are more than useless, against the mirage you are dead before you should a single one. you d be dead before the merge. even if he misses you, you d never outturn and get into a six of a mirage with such a bulky loadout. a friendly hint, take 2 R3R at least to get a shot or 2 and eventually put him on defensiv while he takes on your wingman.
8xR60 is a handicap, not an advantage

First of all, drop the condescending tone, this is just a discussion and it's unnecessary.

Secondly, the R-60M (The missile I was referring to when discussion limited all aspect capability) was NOT rear aspect, The are limited all aspect, and were a damn good missile for their time. Very agile and a good seeker head. Even the R-60 was very capable.

Frontally the MiG 21 stands as much of a chance as the skills of the pilot allow. If you are attacking an Eagle or Mirage frontally, your taking your life into your own hands anyway. The point is to get into the merge or near merge where you have a better chance, and in the merge the 21 has a better chance against the Mirage than several other of the aircraft in DCS. That has been the entire point I have raised, maybe you missed that.

Third, have you ever flown the MiG 21 in adversarial PVP? Do you fly the MiG at all? Do you even own it? I do almost daily and get kills regularly. It's a matter of practice, judgement, and knowing your opponent. Yes- the Eagle and it's like have clear advantages, NO- that doesn't mean they will necessarily win an engagement.

8 R-60s is far from useless, and I have had more success with that loadout on PVP than many others. All this talk about it somehow killing the Fishbeds handling is balderdash. You seem to have limited knowledge of the 21 so let me drop a bomb on ya (no pun intended). One major advantage of the R-60 is it is VERY light. Did you know 8 R-60s weights 50 lbs more than 4 R-60s and 2 R-3RS? FIFTY... POUNDS... lol. That is nothing. You are talking out of your exhaust nozzle when you say it is a handicap.

And even if I do bring a couple R-3Rs to attempt an early shot, after I've shot my SARH and the M2000 has done the same, I still got 100 percent more ordinance than he will.

As far as me never being able to get on the tail of a M2000 after the initial pass? Hehehe... We will see about that.

I have nothing against MiG 21. I'm tired to read your MiG propaganda.

Of course, the F-16 is not to be slow down to 110kt in dogfight.
F-16 is energy fighter, is not at its best in very low speed/ high AoA, limited to 26deg.

This is the kind of mistake F-16 has to avoid...

Ramsey you're at war alone. I don't even understand why you keep coming here, claiming MiG 21 Bis is better than an aircraft you know nothing about ?
You're not asking questions about Mirage, you're making baseless claims, page after pages, despite evidences people are throwing to you...

Dude. Relax man. No baseless claims being made here, I've based everything I have pointed out on what I thought was fact or reliable opinion. You totally missed the point of the F-16 pilots remark about the Fishbed. He was speaking to it's ability to climb, NOT it's low speed prowess, of which it has little.

Also please quote where I said the MiG 21 was BETTER than the M2000? You can't because I never did. I said the MiG 21 has some unique advantages, even as a 3rd Gen+ fighter, against the M2000C which it does not have against the other 4th gen aircraft in the sim.

I didn't even start this discussion, it came up in natural comparison and speculation, and as usual there were plenty to call the Fishbed obsolete junk when that is not the case, it is still a viable threat in the right hands and with the right configuration. Heck, even the Devs thought the discussion was worth having by posting a video of the two battling it out!!!

Relax, no one is here to tell you the Fishbed is the best fighter in the sim... But don't write it off.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Hook47

Fer_Fer · November 30, 2015

Can be leave the toxic fanboying to some other thread and go back to discussing the Technical specifications please?

Does anybody happen to know anything on the ECM resistance of the Radar and the general quality of ECM on the Mirage?

GGTharos · December 1, 2015

Not really relevant to the game, and not really available information. The radar being a bit older should have some trouble with modern ECM, but that's well ... vague and on purpose.

There are sometimes indications of ECCM capabilities in public materials, but all they really tell you is that ECCM is there.

Fer_Fer · December 1, 2015

Not really relevant to the game, and not really available information. The radar being a bit older should have some trouble with modern ECM, but that's well ... vague and on purpose.

There are sometimes indications of ECCM capabilities in public materials, but all they really tell you is that ECCM is there.

Ah shame, i was looking forward to some detailed reading material...

Oh well,

Hook47 · December 1, 2015

Can be leave the toxic fanboying to some other thread and go back to discussing the Technical specifications please?

Does anybody happen to know anything on the ECM resistance of the Radar and the general quality of ECM on the Mirage?

Toxic fanboying? This is a Mirage 2000 Discussion thread, and the discussion turned towards the M2000 vs the Mig 21. Can't help it some people get worked up about it, I thought it was an interesting talk.

GGTharos · December 1, 2015

There's a whole bunch of general material on the subject you could read - just not specific to a given aircraft. :)

Ah shame, i was looking forward to some detailed reading material...
Oh well,

Hook47 · December 1, 2015

SO any word on that countermeasure upgrade or external pods, devs?

Fer_Fer · December 1, 2015

There's a whole bunch of general material on the subject you could read - just not specific to a given aircraft. :)

Went through those for the most part already.

sitting 7 hours a week in a train means i have plenty of time to do my reading :)

Ultra · December 1, 2015

Is the Mirage's RCS small due to its small size? If so, will we see tangible benefits of this versus other aircraft in DCS?

GGTharos · December 1, 2015

Size has little bearing on rcs. I doubt the mirage will be any different compared to other fighters.

Brisse · December 1, 2015

M2000 RCS is similiar to an F-16, which means about 3-5 square meters.

MiG-21bis is also in the same range.

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