the non existent communication is getting rather annoying

[Merlin-27]

haha MAC, I was thinking the same thing. :megalol: Surely, Luthier wouldn't give me his own P-51D key!

 

in recent years there is this misplaced sense of entitlement by some (i am not saying specifically you) that just because they are passionate and deeply committed/involved in a particular game, that somehow this obligates the developers to be accountable to demands being made (in this case, to be responsive to aggressively made demands of interaction and providing information).

 

this is a pretty good article that puts this issue in a broader context http://www.polygon.com/2013/8/15/4622252/plague-of-game-dev-harassment-erodes-industry-spurs-support-groups

 

i think there is a clear difference between supporting our game genre and helping it to succeed, compared to becoming part of the problem and creating a toxic environment.

 

The only thing "misplaced" is your understanding of the issue. That article is a fun way to confuse the topic at hand. This environment is far from what is depicted in the article AND futhermore when money has exchanged hands we have every right to be opinionated. No one here is threatening anyone as far as I know. Are you suggesting that our demands of a professionally run customer facing element is a source of sheer terror for our beloved game developer? Does this request for due diligence make us offensive monsters in your eyes?

 

if we are seeing ourselves as supporters and fans that we should do our part in creating constructive feedback and contribute to increasing our mutual chances the end product being a success, not undermine it.

 

What part of my comments are not constructive criticism? We have suggested many ways things could be remedied and many have offered assistance. You are blind if you don't think we don't want this effort to succeed.

 

and if you paid that large chunk of money and still havnt received your p51 product key, how about i give you my key ? i havnt activated it yet so it is valid and working, and you can just give me your key when the oversight is eventually addressed (as I am confident that the few who havnt received it yet will soon be identified by DCS/luthier)

 

Once again, the point of my entire criticism has eluded you. I've been flying the P-51D for quite a long time and host a 24/7 public server dedicated to it. I do not need your product key to act as a finger in the dike. I am genuinely concerned and I have respectfully asked for improvements to the manner in which things have been run.

[rootango]

when money has exchanged hands we have every right to be opinionated.

 

in the privacy of your own home, sure. but once you are in a public place and shared environment you have obligations towards others as well, and the unspoken understanding obviously in this type of forum would be to communicate in a civilized and constructive way to the developers. and if they dont reply to you dont start huffing and puffing about your misplaced sense of entitlement.

 

Are you suggesting that our demands of a professionally run customer facing element .......... request for due diligence .......

and that is exactly where your current problem lies :) YOU do NOT have ANY "rights" to make demands for them to "do" anything (beyod providing you with the sale of goods as described), and why should you ? if you dont like the product just ask for your money back, aside from that you are "entitled" to zip, denade, rien, nothing !

 

Once again, the point of my entire criticism has eluded you.

only because as it turns out you have nothing valid to complain about (since you now say you have received your p51 key, and also agreed it is only logical for you to get skype observer access in the latter parts of the beta stage). its up to luthier and DCS how they manage the communication about their products development, dont like it ? then just come back in 7 or 8 months when it is done

 

 

I am genuinely concerned ....

you can sleep soundly and be assured luthier is keeping watch on the wall to keep you safe from your darkest fears of their projects failure, and all indications still are that the project will be delivered on time and as planned :)

 

and I have respectfully asked for improvements to the manner in which things have been run.

lol, you'r struggling a bit with that one arnt you ! and saying pretty please and 'mam doesnt increase your entitlements or their obligation to you either, i wish the world was that simple :megalol:

[cichlidfan]

and all indications still are that the project will be delivered on time and as planned :)

 

What schedule are you basing that on?

[MA_Goblin]

@rootango:

Sorry mate but I haven't made any demands in my post, have I?

 

Since I have had the unfortunate privilege to be project manager in IT

projects I do believe that the lack of communication and the in-ability to

make the games own web site with info and consolidating the data from

the KS and PP are simply bad customer relationship.

 

I also have every ED module except the Mi-8 already so I don't need the

P51 key for any other purpose than giving it away. I really don't think that

it's on my part to make them do good on their statements and promises.

 

I fully accept delays and that it will take this entire year for them to

produce anything viable but only, and i repeat only if they tell me that

that's how everything is. That is customer relationship. If they are stretched

thin then say so. I don't mind. But don't tell me nothing!

[rootango]

What schedule are you basing that on?

 

from its inception the layout of this ww2 project has a number of elements that give it a very strong chance to succeed and be delivered on time. the grafix engine (EDGE) and game engine are provided as finished products by DCS, and they already have a working highly detailed aircraft with fully modeled flight physics (and other aircraft parameters) that is fully working in that environment (as well as the other game elements like vehicles, munition ballistics, weather etc). those 2 main elements are usually the great unknown quantity that can make or break a new game, and DCS provides those elements to luthier as fully working finished products which he only needs to make minor modifications to (if any)

 

luthier and his team then create 3 or 4 additional high fidelity new aircraft (external aircraft and cockpits, plus obtaining detailed flight physics data). the development time needed for each of those aspects is well known (and has already proven to be reliable). as you might have noticed in the latest kickstarter update, luthier then simply (sic) imports the new finished aircraft and "plugs in" the flight physics data, and basically it should work :) obviously minor bugs can be present and cause some delay (as was reported in this weeks update), but whatever bug they fix will make it even easier to import the next aircraft trouble free etc..

 

the new map is populated with objects and landscape detail, again this can be done at a known pace and rate (and has been done for a number of other projects in the past by both teams). this is usually a time consuming elelment, but it is fairly easy to predict the time required.

 

other elements from existing DCS products are added and modified as required to become part of the ww2 environment (like elements of combined arms or DCS world). luthier already specified not to expect many changes from the currently working DCS format, eg the number of online players (net code) possible, weather, ballistics etc. all that will be modified and adapted from current working DCS elements, and only in later years as various new aircraft and new maps are added will they take the time to develop those low priorities further.

 

and for those that have been following the development updates in that context, they will ave observed that luthier exactly described the ww2 sim project development in that context and from the updates we can see so far that everything is progressing nicely and on track.

Edited March 23, 2014 by rootango

[Raven68]

One thing you can probably count on is that this whole ordeal jeopardizes future campaigns, if there are any.

[bongodriver]

No, if a successful product is released then it will be very positive for the future.

[rootango]

lack of communication and the in-ability to

make the games own web site with info and consolidating the data from

the KS and PP are simply bad customer relationship.

 

i fully agree, but then again however much we personally care about this project (as fans) and wish it to succeed, it is also their right to mismanage that part if they so decide.

 

personally i think luthiers team is peddeling as fast as they can on their little bikes to make progress on the most essential parts of the project, eg the game itself, like aircraft, map, game objects etc... once they have a few milestones covered and gain confidence with various elements working as they should and on schedule, they will worry more about promotional elements or customer relations.

 

I fully accept delays and that it will take this entire year for them to produce anything viable but only, and i repeat only if they tell me that that's how everything is. That is customer relationship. If they are stretched thin then say so. I don't mind. But don't tell me nothing!

i have been following this project from the start and see in their kickstarter updates all the indications they are on track.

[Raven68]

No, if a successful product is released then it will be very positive for the future.

 

That will be for the future to tell of course. If you base it on the current atmosphere from the forum members that have contributed, would you feel confident in starting a KS campaign today for a future module in DCS?

[bongodriver]

That will be for the future to tell of course. If you base it on the current atmosphere from the forum members that have contributed, would you feel confident in starting a KS campaign today for a future module in DCS?

 

Yes, it can only be a good thing if more content is added to our tiny niche hobby.

[MACADEMIC]

It is you! Welcome back! :megalol:

 

MAC

 

from its inception the layout of this ww2 project has a number of elements that give it a very strong chance to succeed and be delivered on time. the grafix engine (EDGE) and game engine are provided as finished products by DCS, and they already have a working highly detailed aircraft with fully modeled flight physics (and other aircraft parameters) that is fully working in that environment (as well as the other game elements like vehicles, munition ballistics, weather etc). those 2 main elements are usually the great unknown quantity that can make or break a new game, and DCS provides those elements to luthier as fully working finished products which he only needs to make minor modifications to (if any)

 

luthier and his team then create 3 or 4 additional high fidelity new aircraft (external aircraft and cockpits, plus obtaining detailed flight physics data). the development time needed for each of those aspects is well known (and has already proven to be reliable). as you might have noticed in the latest kickstarter update, luthier then simply (sic) imports the new finished aircraft and "plugs in" the flight physics data, and basically it should work :) obviously minor bugs can be present and cause some delay (as was reported in this weeks update), but whatever bug they fix will make it even easier to import the next aircraft trouble free etc..

 

the new map is populated with objects and landscape detail, again this can be done at a known pace and rate (and has been done for a number of other projects in the past by both teams). this is usually a time consuming elelment, but it is fairly easy to predict the time required.

 

other elements from existing DCS products are added and modified as required to become part of the ww2 environment (like elements of combined arms or DCS world). luthier already specified not to expect many changes from the currently working DCS format, eg the number of online players (net code) possible, weather, ballistics etc. all that will be modified and adapted from current working DCS elements, and only in later years as various new aircraft and new maps are added will they take the time to develop those low priorities further.

 

and for those that have been following the development updates in that context, they will ave observed that luthier exactly described the ww2 sim project development in that context and from the updates we can see so far that everything is progressing nicely and on track.

[rootango]

from kickstarter update 12, stating what i referred to earlier in a previous post about the ww2 game development approach for their first installment (normandy)

 

The project was designed from the ground up to be simple and lean. It's largely made up of three types of tasks: aircraft creation, landscape design, and mission and campaign design. All of these tasks are inherently more predictable than many other tasks often involved in game design. The feature list for DCS WWII was specifically chosen to contain as few risks as possible.

 

 

 

This way, the project plan is a matter of simple math. We can accurately estimate the amount of time it will take us to make the 3D models of aircraft and cockpits because we're not breaking any new ground here. We can accurately estimate the amount of time it will take to create new aircraft because most DCS WWII tasks follow the tracks laid down by DCS P-51. Looking over the blueprints and technical descriptions of all featured aircraft, we see no major tasks that have a serious risk of falling through or taking too much time and jeopardizing the entire project.

The landscape design is also predictable. We know exactly what needs to be done. All tasks can be estimated accurately because they follow preexisting examples.

 

 

 

Content creation, missions, campaigns, is again predictable. We are using the powerful DCS Mission Editor, a stable, established program, that again allows us to accurately gauge the amount of time needed for all tasks.

All in all, we know exactly what needs to be done. We can estimate all tasks with a high degree of accuracy. Kickstarter budget gives us a comfortable cushion to play test everything and correct any unanticipated problems we may encounter.

if you then read through the updates from the last few months, you can see they are pretty much on track :) Edited March 23, 2014 by rootango

[dburne]

It is you! Welcome back! :megalol:

 

MAC

 

Lol, that would explain it...

[VincentLaw]

One thing you can probably count on is that this whole ordeal jeopardizes future campaigns, if there are any.

No, if a successful product is released then it will be very positive for the future.

Having a good experience with the final product will not change the fact that I had a bad experience with the kickstarter. This is not something I can forget before I consider contributing to future kickstarter campaigns.

if you then read through the updates from the last few months, you can see they are pretty much on track :)

It is March. They are not on track. Being able to admit that is not a bad thing, and being off track doesn't make you a bad developer. (Pretty much everything is always off track) Edited March 23, 2014 by VincentLaw

[klem]

That will be for the future to tell of course. If you base it on the current atmosphere from the forum members that have contributed, would you feel confident in starting a KS campaign today for a future module in DCS?

 

Actually (bongodriver), I might say No. The current atmosphere from the forum members that have contributed might make me think "why bother".

 

Back OT, Ilya is communicating with us, on Kickstarter. It might be nice for some forum members if he came here and repeated what he has already said on Kickstarter but I would rather he spent his time on develpment than duplicating his efforts. And for now the same goes for spending money on a Publicity Manager.

 

And, again, why do some people insist on posting questions here when by there own admission he does not seem to come here (for whatever reason), why don't they just go to Kickstarter and post their questions there where all the backers can see their concerns. It might actually get them some stronger backing, in the right place. In here we are just a small pool of backers just shouting into the wind.

 

Anyway let's just look at those five questions:

-why is it not possible to give a lifesign at least once a week to at least show the community and supporters, that you are still there/alive?

where is the communication you promised.not the monologue like iregular updates we have seen so far, but actual interaction with the community.

 

He gives a lifesign on Kickstarter on a reasonably regular basis and when there is something to say. I'm not interested in updates that say "see last week".

 

Regular, Honest communication as promised is all we want.Community Manager hire? (if there is nobody yet, i would vote for Sithspawn, as he is already trying to do his job)

 

What is there to communicate beyond the progress (and problems) he is experiencing and reporting on Kickstarter. There is nothing for us to test/review/discuss yet.

 

- The logo design contest - results?

OK I'll give you that one. A real dealbreaker but yes it should be done. Maybe he didn't like any of them.

 

-Can I get a confirmation email on my paypal contribution to the kickstarter?

I don't understand the question. Every single purchase I have made with Paypal gets me a confirmation from Paypal but never from the supplier.

 

-Is there a status on the "Black out" that prevented all development images? (Edit by SiThSpAwN) I dont think this is an issue as we saw screenshots in the latest update.

 

Missing P-51 Keys that should have been sent out already?

I believe that is linked to the Paypal issue and the problems associating them with/into Kickstarter accounts. It's a pain but he is aware. From what I am reading I don't think many people are affected.

 

Remember guys, you didn't buy anything. You invested in a new project and investments come with unpredictable programmes, outcomes, risks and sometimes worse but we are nowhere near that far down the road.

 

Do you really think he is sitting there with our money, rubbing his hands and saying 'what a bunch of shmucks'?

[cichlidfan]

One thing you can probably count on is that this whole ordeal jeopardizes future campaigns, if there are any.

 

I would hope that nobody associated with DCS starts a kickstarter for a very, very long time.

[bongodriver]

Actually (bongodriver), I might say No. The current atmosphere from the forum members that have contributed might make me think "why bother".

 

 

Yeah sure, you 'might', you 'might' not, you 'might' be the only one

[cichlidfan]

-Can I get a confirmation email on my paypal contribution to the kickstarter?

I don't understand the question. Every single purchase I have made with Paypal gets me a confirmation from Paypal but never from the supplier.

 

 

 

Really? Can you provide three examples of vendors/businesses which do not provide receipts or any other form of response when you pay with PayPal? I use PayPal quite regularly, and I cannot.

[VincentLaw]

And, again, why do some people insist on posting questions here when by there own admission he does not seem to come here (for whatever reason), why don't they just go to Kickstarter and post their questions there where all the backers can see their concerns.

As a paypal backer, I do not have backer privileges to make any comments on kickstarter.

 

-Can I get a confirmation email on my paypal contribution to the kickstarter?

I don't understand the question. Every single purchase I have made with Paypal gets me a confirmation from Paypal but never from the supplier.

Yes, I have a confirmation from paypal that paypal sent my money to RRG. Other than that I have absolutely nothing. I would like to know that RRG actually recognizes my status as a backer, and that I will be getting the rewards I payed for. Right now, I have absolutely no assurance from RRG of anything. I am basically in some gray area of uncertainty. Consequently, I have no confidence in RRG.

Remember guys, you didn't buy anything.

Actually, we did. This is straight from the kickstarter terms of use:

Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.

Of course I used paypal, so they are not bound to those terms regarding my money. Edited March 23, 2014 by VincentLaw

[Merlin-27]

I really didn't want to respond to you anymore... but you make it oh so hard to resist.

 

in the privacy of your own home, sure. but once you are in a public place and shared environment you have obligations towards others as well, and the unspoken understanding obviously in this type of forum would be to communicate in a civilized and constructive way to the developers. and if they dont reply to you dont start huffing and puffing about your misplaced sense of entitlement.

 

You, little fella, are the only one getting excited. Take a look at the way you write your sentences. I can almost see the steam from your ears. Everything I have written has been civilized and constructive. You really need to start paying attention.

 

and that is exactly where your current problem lies :) YOU do NOT have ANY "rights" to make demands for them to "do" anything (beyod providing you with the sale of goods as described), and why should you ? if you dont like the product just ask for your money back, aside from that you are "entitled" to zip, denade, rien, nothing !

 

Ah yes, promised items on the kickstarter should not be expected. That makes sense. Now you are really enlightening the masses.

 

only because as it turns out you have nothing valid to complain about (since you now say you have received your p51 key, and also agreed it is only logical for you to get skype observer access in the latter parts of the beta stage). its up to luthier and DCS how they manage the communication about their products development, dont like it ? then just come back in 7 or 8 months when it is done

 

I can't believe I have to explain this part to you. I purchased a P-51D license from ED long before RRG began their work. Thank you for trying to put me in my place :doh:

 

you can sleep soundly and be assured luthier is keeping watch on the wall to keep you safe from your darkest fears of their projects failure, and all indications still are that the project will be delivered on time and as planned :)

 

This just doesn't make any sense. I'm not going to attempt to decipher it.

When have I ever complained or even commented about the timeline of the sim development?

 

lol, you'r struggling a bit with that one arnt you ! and saying pretty please and 'mam doesnt increase your entitlements or their obligation to you either, i wish the world was that simple :megalol:

 

The only struggle is within your twisted logic. I'm really hoping you are just some butthurt fanboy and not anyone with a legitimate tie to RRG. If that were proven I would detach myself completely from the enterprise.

[Merlin-27]

once they have a few milestones covered and gain confidence with various elements working as they should and on schedule, they will worry more about promotional elements or customer relations.

 

Customer relations last. Brilliant. That has always shown to be an effective business mantra.

[klem]

As a paypal backer, I do not have backer privileges to make any comments on kickstarter.

 

True, but this was warned in update #11 and Paypal backers made that choice. I believe you can see Kickstarter updates but in any case those that can are able to post them in this forum if they wish (someone has posted #31). Also, knowing that Paypal backers may never be able to comment on Kickstarter it would be a much more positive approach for one of those that can to post the questions in Kickstarter. There seem to be enough guys here who are keen to represent backer's views.

 

Yes, I have a confirmation from paypal that paypal sent my money to RRG. Other than that I have absolutely nothing. I would like to know that RRG actually recognizes my status as a backer, and that I will be getting the rewards I payed for. Right now, I have absolutely no assurance from RRG of anything. I am basically in some gray area of uncertainty. Consequently, I have no confidence in RRG.

[/Quote]That's how Paypal has always worked for me.

In Kickstarter update #30 he addresses the Rewards issue again after explaining the nightmare in #24. I know it's taking time but he isn't ignoring it.

 

Actually, we did. This is straight from the kickstarter terms of use:

Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.

Of course I used paypal, so they are not bound to those terms regarding my money.[/Quote]No but apparently you can always get your money back (Update #11) although it seems to me a bit early to be thinking like that.

 

Anyway, this is just going round in circles.

 

 

@bongodriver

I'm not sure if you're misunderstanding me or I'm misunderstanding you but regardless of this Topic my main worry is that some people will indulge in the kind of malicious poison that was spewed all over CoD in the banana forum.

 

This Thread is a case in point. Instead of going to Kickstarter with questions it has been decided by some ED forum members to collect them here, rant that Ilya is not visiting this forum and then heap ill feelings on anyone who reminds people that this is a Kickstarter project with its own means of communication. As far as I know this is not the official project website Ilya spoke of to which all backers will be invited in order to discuss the project. If the absence of that official website is an issue then that's also a question for the Kickstarter page. Let's keep Kickstarter where it belongs.

[VincentLaw]

True, but this was warned in update #11 and Paypal backers made that choice.

I am not complaining about my inability to post on the kickstarter page. I am explaining to you why I am posting here instead of bringing up the issue on the kickstarter page, which is what you said everyone should be doing.

Let's keep Kickstarter where it belongs.

No, lets keep it here where everyone has the ability to discuss it.

That's how Paypal has always worked for me.

Yes. That is how paypal works. Of course paypal is not magically going to get RRG to confirm anything. That is entirely on them. Edited March 24, 2014 by VincentLaw

[Raven68]

Why not post here?? To me these forums are the heart of the DCS community.

[Cobra847]

I would hope that nobody associated with DCS starts a kickstarter for a very, very long time.

 

I would hope that anybody with a level head does not paint everyone with the same brush.

One crowdfunding campaign has absolutely nothing to do with another.