F-15 useless against EOS

[EAGLE23]

Ok I have noticed servers like S77th who don't have operating AWACS usually result in F-15's being snuck up on by Russian fighters using there EOS IRST. If your unfamiliar with the S77th server the F-15s spawn at Tbilisi and Russian fighters spawn at Mozdok there is a mountain range spliting these bases apart and the bulleye and 90% of the mission is at suhkumi whenever I fly a F-15 and I go head on towards mozdok from Tbilisi to intercept fighters I get nothing, nada,zinc on radar and I get hit by a R-73 or R-27ET (TED) when ever I see a fighters contrails when over the mountain I point my nose at them radar on and I know they're there above me but my F-15 itself doesn't. The Suhkois using EOS see everything and can target us without warning what should I do go nose cold ecm off and fly through valleys and cry myself over to Suhkumi (exageration) :cry::helpsmilie::helpsmilie::helpsmilie::helpsmilie::helpsmilie: :cry: but seriously what do you F-15 pilots do out there to defend against EOS and are there any tips to picking up targets I don't know about (list those you think can help) I know how to defend myself in a head to head battle or any battle but I can't even see these guys and when I do they tag team me with eos or even better get me with R-73's at 43,000feet when im radar hot 160 and scanning my 12 and don't even see them come from under me miles out. Im seriously bout to give up and fly Russian fighters again. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: but out of all seriousness I could use the help. Thank you anyone who takes out the time to help me.

Edited March 6, 2014 by EAGLE23

[lunaticfringe]

1. Understand what you can see with the radar at a given range. 160 mile detection mode isn't going to net you a fighter sized target much beyond a hundred her (in fact, I think it outright doesn't). DCS puts them out more inside of 70 or so, maximum. So first order of business is trimming your search range.

 

By doing so, you are lowering the amount of time for the radar to sweep bars and "listen" for targets at ranges further than you could ever hope to detect them. This increases the potential for detection of what you should be able to detect.

 

2. Search modes are not boresighted- they are stabilized. Thus, "pointing my nose" at a guy with your radar active may still be sweeping in a pattern that is well beyond, or well in front of, them, depending on the last elevation region you had your scan set at.

 

3. Lower altitude. Not weeds, but make sure you're not in contrail levels. If you're sprouting a tail, their work is all but done for them. Fighter sized targets without radar are effectively invisible at 40 miles (or should, so long as EOS isn't grossly overrated, or you're not stupid fast).

 

4. Look at your kneeboard map, or look at the map view depending on the server, and focus on where your nose is in relation to the valleys you're trying to scan. Be at a level that allows you to look into those valleys and catch what's coming at you. This means changing your flight plan. Don't go "straight" anywhere, unless you are pointing in a direction you can use the azimuth shift of TWS to sweep and grab what is coming at you.

 

5. Practice good visual search methods. Look at where you think they may be coming from, zoom in, and then look "around", sweeping your "head" in game; eyes are attracted to changes in relative motion instinctively- if you're moving your virtual head, and the focused scenery in the background is shifting at a given rate (that of the rotation of your head), and a dot is moving faster or slower, you will see it.

 

6. When in Search, make sure to condense your scan width as is normal in TWS. This speeds up the processing (see 1) and allows for a natural transition into the other mode if required; you won't be looking somewhere TWS can't see, meaning that your TD box will be there immediately.

 

7. Shift pulse widths in accordance with the terrain you're shooting wavelengths against. Interleaved doubles the scan time if you're searching for someone coming at you. Get high and stay there. Conversely, if someone's running, go mid. Be in the right width for the situation.

 

There's more, but that should get you started.

[AegisFX]

Fly around 24k alt. Alternate between radar on and off while scanning at various levels. Manually move the radar up and down. Fly around 88-100% throttle and don't use AB( it shows up at longer ranges on EOS)

 

If you are on the 77th, start your flight from base to regroup on the coast and every so often, begin an orbit with radar on to scan the horizon, particularly toward the mountain region. Finish the loop, radar off, and continue on to the coastal region. Do NOT chase an enemy. Just watch them in TWS if they run away.

 

You'll beat the EOS with vigilance. Monitor the radar when it's on. Monitor your surroundings with your cockpit view. Trackir, mouse, whatever you need to move your view to your window.

[104th_Crunch]

Good pointers.

 

Understand as well that if you were playing on a server with AWACS in the air, EOS can be way more of an advantage. Using AWACS you can creep up on someone using EOS alone. So your observation about an advantage without AWACS is invalid if both sides have it.

 

The other Su/MiG advantage is the R25T as it has the longest range of any thermal guided missile. Also, the helmet target tracking / off bore firing.

 

You need to search the forums on the best way to use radar to find your targets first, as the tips already given here detail. It's all about finding the best way to scan potential areas of bandit location and having good situational awareness. If you find them first in an F15, flying high, and fast you can use your height and speed for better missile range and jet manoeuvring. Those low, and slow guys will be at a disadvantage.

 

Also, if you tally a bandit in a F15 by chance without your radar painting him, and giving you away, you can sneak up as well with radar off, and fire your Sidewinder using the missile's seeker alone.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Crunch

[TAW_Blaze]

The eagle has the advantage assuming no AWACS or datalink for either side. Excellent SA with it's great avionics, better standoff capability.

 

Now when you have AWACS and datalink the advantage goes the other way, simply because the russian drivers tend to fly low in the dirt. AWACS ain't worth shit when you're trying to find a guy inside those valleys. Meanwhile you'll show on their datalink all the time because you're flying high.

 

Fly around 25 000', going above trails is pretty worthless right now due to the crappy missile guidances. Learn how much time it takes to sprint before you shoot and only use burners for so much. If you fly in afterburners 24/7 they'll see you no matter what. Also you don't want to fly above those mountains on your own. If you have a 2 or 4 ship you can go for it but solo mountain missions mostly fail. To a specific extent, on the S77th, fly to the coast south to the mountains, then move up to Kobuleti, or Kolkhi, not sure which one was friendly there. Rearm, refuel if needed, then just CAP around that area. That's what you're supposed to do in the mission anyway. If you fly across in the middle of the mountains with zero SA then no wonder you're getting killed.

 

Other than that, to me it seems you don't really understand how the radar works. I'm not sure if I can give anything to you on that, but if you figure out how the antenna elavation/tilting works and how the cone shape affects the scan pattern then you're pretty good. Albeit there's a good amount of details beyond that. :D

Edited March 6, 2014 by <Blaze>

[Darkwolf]

As being one of those su27, i can tell that it is not so easy for us either. Most of the time i get pinned by radar and shot before i could sneak anywhere. 27ET missiles are great, f15 pilot never see it coming, but believe me, when rwr goee wild on our plane, we know we are dead. Only way to survive is to spam a couple of those crap R27ER and run away.

[Frostie]

EOS is currently overmodeled since latest update, waiting for fix.

[*Rage*]

As being one of those su27, i can tell that it is not so easy for us either. Most of the time i get pinned by radar and shot before i could sneak anywhere. 27ET missiles are great, f15 pilot never see it coming, but believe me, when rwr goee wild on our plane, we know we are dead. Only way to survive is to spam a couple of those crap R27ER and run away.

 

Crappy ER guidance should improve in next patch. Fingers crossed:music_whistling:

[TAW_Blaze]

EOS is currently overmodeled since latest update, waiting for fix.

 

I'm curious, can you elaborate please?

[Frostie]

I'm curious' date=' can you elaborate please?[/quote']

 

You can see contacts at bonkers mad ranges.

[TAW_Blaze]

I wonder how far you can see a guy cranked off the burners and how far away you can maddog an ET at him with a reasonable pk. Should go for some testing.

[AegisFX]

For me, it seems like if the target cuts off his burner, I immediately lose the EOS unless they were close enough for a normal lock. The AB really does seem to stand out that much, I think.

[Pyroflash]

If it needs to be fixed, then I'm all for it, but IMO, EOS only gives Russians an advantage when used in a specific fashion. If you are using proper tactics, you can negate the benefits of EOS, and in some cases, use the capabilities of EOS against a bandit.

 

The important thing to really keep in mind is that EOS still requires line of sight. If the EOS can see you, your RADAR can see him better. The only thing that complicates this is if your search patterns aren't planned out well.

 

There are things that a fighter can do positionally, in order to more effectively sweep the mountains. With the right mindset and tactics, the Eagle can actually see and manage quite a lot that AWACS may have trouble with. For starters, if you are within 20 miles or so of a mountain range, try to:

 

a. fly high. This way you can point your RADAR down into the mountains to where the enemy can hide from the AWACS.

 

b. Position yourself and your scan pattern in such a way that you are covering the valleys, and your RADAR isn't being blocked by any obtrusive ridges. If possible, always have someone hot on the target so that an enemy doesn't have a chance to slip through.

 

c. Don't be afraid to slip down lower if you spot someone in the weeds. 26,000' of energy isn't going to help you a lot if you lose track of him because you are so high. The only caveat here is to try to maintain an altitude advantage if possible. Don't low the lawn, but don't let him slip under you either.

 

d. Use your support. Periodically have someone clear your six and looking low. ET's make a giant plume of smoke when they fire. Use that to your advantage.

 

e. Understand the limitations of the systems the bandit is using. The EOS system and R-27ET have some serious drawbacks which can work in your favor if you know how they work. Know how to manage your heat signature, and practice proper missile defense. ET's are comparatively pretty easy to dodge, and visual SA will save your life because of this. I know it's easier said than done, but its a discipline that you build up over time.

 

g. Understand what a good bandit looks like and what a bad bandit looks like. If you recognize that things aren't going according to plan early on (your first missile missed, the bandit started notching and suddenly appeared again 20 miles away, etc.), maybe it's time to rethink your position and do something to change the pacing. An STT launch here, a cheapshot there, stuff to keep the range open so that you have more time before he gets into a position to more effectively threaten you. Pretty much don't let Russians get into positions where they have advantages over you. Always give them something to worry about, even if it isn't a killing blow.

[blkspade]

First and foremost, scanning at 160nm is basically useless as no fighter sized targets will show up beyond 62nm. It also creates a elevation scan gap for targets that are closer to you, that isn't clearly represented on the VSD. As targets pass the midway point on the VSD you should decrease the scan range. Also to help with early detection you should be in high PRF at first.

 

Be wary of high flying Russian jets. If they aren't firing ERs at you while up there, then they are most likely bait and isn't the one actually killing you. Its his buddy on comms flying low waiting for you to climb full ab completely focused on the high guy. Anytime you're sure its 1v1 you want to be out of AB within a certain range of a Su/MiG depending on their altitude. If they're really high its around 20nm, lower then 12-15nm, otherwise you'll be taking ETs to the face.

[EAGLE23]

Thank you everybody I will apply these useful tips and practice them as well again thank you

[JNASova]

Good pointers.

 

The other Su/MiG advantage is the R25T as it has the longest range of any thermal guided missile. Also, the helmet target tracking / off bore firing.

 

 

R 27ET is good at range 10 KM (incoming target).At 10KM any missile is dangerous,especially AIM 120C.So,not some advantage.

[blkspade]

 

R 27ET is good at range 10 KM (incoming target).At 10KM any missile is dangerous,especially AIM 120C.So,not some advantage.

 

Considering the ET is effective at as much as 20km, its advantage over the 120 comes it requiring visual launch detection. You always have the minute possibility of evading the 120 just by always having a RWR telling to take evasive action.

[104th_Crunch]

Good pointers.

 

The other Su/MiG advantage is the R25T as it has the longest range of any thermal guided missile. Also, the helmet target tracking / off bore firing.

 

 

R 27ET is good at range 10 KM (incoming target).At 10KM any missile is dangerous,especially AIM 120C.So,not some advantage.

 

Hi Sova,

What you say is true, but if the 27ET is fired in EOS, enemy will not get a warning. Which is a very nice advantage :)

[Bandit.]

I don't know if it was mentioned but keep a check on your afterburners. Half of my kills come from pilots using too much afterburners. It allows me to detect targets from insane ranges and therefore, I am able to plan my attack with a lot of time. It gives me the opportunity to sneak up on pilots with ease.

 

Stay off burners unless you are actually fighting someone and you should see a massive increase in your survivability

[Pyroflash]

I don't know if it was mentioned but keep a check on your afterburners. Half of my kills come from pilots using too much afterburners. It allows me to detect targets from insane ranges and therefore, I am able to plan my attack with a lot of time. It gives me the opportunity to sneak up on pilots with ease.

 

Stay off burners unless you are actually fighting someone and you should see a massive increase in your survivability

 

Stay off burners unless you ACTUALLY NEED THEM. There are plenty of situations that require afterburning, but aren't combat related.

 

Though using afterburners in order to burn off that extra couple thousand pounds of fuel that you brought in those draggy (and heavy) drop tanks probably isn't one of them.

[Bandit.]

Stay off burners unless you ACTUALLY NEED THEM. There are plenty of situations that require afterburning, but aren't combat related.

 

Though using afterburners in order to burn off that extra couple thousand pounds of fuel that you brought in those draggy (and heavy) drop tanks probably isn't one of them.

 

I agree. I guess the main idea of my post is to avoid attracting unnecessary attention. Same principle applies to radar usage and jammers. You don't need it on 24/7 it just use them when you actually need them.

 

I usually turn it on do a scan pattern and then off again. I don't even bother with jammers when I'm flying solo.

[JNASova]

 

Hi Sova,

What you say is true, but if the 27ET is fired in EOS, enemy will not get a warning. Which is a very nice advantage :)

 

Same as with TWS and AIM 120C.Dont have warning did misile fired at 20 KM until become active.Never cant be shure,so you ALWAYS soppose it is fired.Same with ET.ALWAYS soppose it is there and take defensive action.

At 10KM you must expect enything

 

And R 27ET is good at 10KM for incoming targets and IF target continue starit a head.

[Pilotasso]

Radar missiles as they stand in 1.2.7 are a joke. IR technology and visually acquiring targets owns the game right now.

[Darkwolf]

Well. We sukkhoi pilots have the EOS.

 

 

.... you have Fire&forget Amraam.

[Pyroflash]

 

Same as with TWS and AIM 120C.Dont have warning did misile fired at 20 KM until become active.Never cant be shure,so you ALWAYS soppose it is fired.Same with ET.ALWAYS soppose it is there and take defensive action.

At 10KM you must expect enything

 

And R 27ET is good at 10KM for incoming targets and IF target continue starit a head.

 

There are certain indications the enemy pilot can give you that will show whether or not he has fired a missile. Of course, this assumes that the enemy is trained well enough to know what to do when launching a missile. Also, even when I know that they've fired missiles. I wouldn't necessarily take immediate defensive action. The situation may not warrant it, or the tactic may require a certain action be taken that will lead to the defeat of the missile anyways.

 

At 10km, I am expecting a merge. Both targets are now unable to run from each other, and the fight will close extremely fast from here on out. Maybe one ET shot (or active), which can be dodged by any half decent Eagle pilot, and on to the merge.