P-51D Dogfight - Stalls and Spins

[Charly_Owl]

Hello everyone,

 

I started flying the P-51D and I thought I had it figured out. I practiced dogfighting against human players with Cliffs of Dover and once I got the hang of it, I decided to try out flying the Mustang against the FW 190 AI. Boy, that AI schooled me.

 

I usually fly the CloD Spitfire or Bf109, but the P-51D in DCS makes dogfighting extremely difficult. Each time I try to pull on the stick for a little bit, my plane enters in a violent spin. Each time I get altitude and come for a dive, the moment I try to pull up from this dive is the moment where the air whistles and my plane spins. I just have to make very very large turns in order to keep the aircraft in its desired trajectory, but I really, really wished I could turn tighter, both in horizontal and vertical manoeuvres.

 

I tried 2 things: I tried to use my combat flaps to tighten the turn (which kinda works but bleeds way too much energy for my taste) or I kick the rudder to try to maintain trajectory as soon as I hear the "air whistle" that comes before entering a spin.

 

I just don't understand why the plane has this tendancy to spin like crazy the minute you pull a little on the stick. I haven't seen this kind of behaviour on either a CloD Spit or a 109. Could anybody help me understand what's going on and how to make these high-G turns without spinning to my death? Thanks!

[Faith]

I believe the spin you are referring with high up elevator is a dynamic stall over the wing. I think the the instruction manual refers to this phenomenon.

 

Make sure you are getting full movement on the control surfaces and your joystick is proportional to the in game surface movement. You can check this using a keyboard shortcut. I have heard the P-51 module needs to have its axis movement remapped from default or it is much too sensitive.

 

You are probably just over controlling the aircraft and causing the spins and stalls. Try to be more gentle.

[Skulleader]

Hello,

 

I've saw many documentarys where we can watch the warbirds in dogfight in the WWII and is it true that it seems that the real P-51 is more easy to fly than our P-51D but is it true ?

It's very difficult to have the answer because our virtual world is not the real world and maybe it's too difficult to obtain the same FM for our P-51D that the real P-51D, no ?

As I'm not a real pilot, and as I've never fly the real P-51D I don't know the difference between our P-51 and the real P-51.

 

Sometime after to have watched one documentary about the warbirds and the dogfight in the WWII I've tried few maneuvers in dogfight but I could not fly my P-51 like the real Mustang, maybe because I'm not a real pilot or maybe because I'm not a good pilot, very hard to have the answer...

 

I've owned IL-2 1946 and of course I've piloted many aircrafts in dogfight (virtual) but this simulator is not realist, our DCS's P-51D is more realist, more difficult to pilot but it's just one sensation, my sensation.

 

For have a real idea about our P-51D the best is to have the feedback from a real pilots who flying with the real P-51D, I've read the post about the two pilots from the Horsemen (Duxford) who tested our P-51D but what can I say ?

 

Is not easy to meet one real pilot who fly with a real Mustang for have one comparison with our P-51D and I think that this topic is difficult to have the solution...

 

Wait & See and hope...

Edited March 9, 2014 by Skulleader

[gavagai]

Over the years we have lost more P-51 aircrews to turn related accelerated stall than any of us care to remember

 

http://www.warbirddepot.com/fighter_formation/documents/FFQP_Turn_Performance.pdf

 

A laminar flow wing is a terrible choice for high AoA maneuvers. My advice is to get a force feedback joystick. It's almost an unfair advantage when you are fighting other humans in a P-51 vs P-51 fight.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

welcome to dcs!

the thing is, i know exactly what you are suffering from charly owl.

clod will give you the tendency, to just throw the stick way to quick and to much around.in clod, you dont get punished for that.in clod you can literally keep pushing the stick back to its edge of movement, and keep happily turning almost all day long,...until you reach a certain speed, and you stall...thats quite an unrealistic behaviour.every plane can stall at any speed, but im sure you are aware of that.

 

i suggest you, that you keep practicing.using flaps during turns definitely helps..not necessary when dogfighting the AI, but as soon as you go online and try to fight an experienced p51 pilot without flaps, you are pretty much done even before trying.especially if its a guy like the poster above :)

using rudder helps a lot and is necessary to use correctly here in the stang.step the ball, keep it centered.

 

keep practicing, and you will soon learn to fly on the edges of the flight envelope of the p51.with time you will be able to ride that stall, buffeting through the air, taming the stang :)

 

but be aware, as soon as you managed to do so, it will have ruined your fun for clod and other "sims" probably.at least it did for me.i just cannot fly this game anymore, as it feels so wrong.

 

EDIT: and what the ace from above said,...laminar wingflow, everything comes with a disadvantage....

Edited March 9, 2014 by 9./JG27 DavidRed

[WildBillKelsoe]

keep in mind that most TV CGI is crap and does not model real life behaviour. Like that red tails movie for instance, try that gay maneuver Lightning (IIRC) showed the German the 'trick' he 'learned' and you're in flames..

 

Its a return to basics. Chased? Put lift vector on target.

 

Also, keep in mind that it takes time to develop the motor skills with your joystick to fly in that envelope. Its a good touch to include pre-buffet sounds and stall entry vibrations, but with practice, you'll avoid those.

 

Of note also, is that the more you gain speed, of course, the more left yaw tendency you receive, and of course, the loss of speed causes a right yaw tendency.

 

 

Flying online with human pilots on training basis is the best way to learn that bit of extra information, and lots more interesting information. Check my sig for a dedicated P-51D squadron.

[PFunk1606688187]

welcome to dcs!

the thing is, i know exactly what you are suffering from charly owl.

clod will give you the tendency, to just throw the stick way to quick and to much around.in clod, you dont get punished for that.in clod you can literally keep pushing the stick back to its edge of movement, and keep happily turning almost all day long,...until you reach a certain speed, and you stall...thats quite an unrealistic behaviour.every plane can stall at any speed, but im sure you are aware of that.

 

Are you saying that Clod doesn't model high-AoA maneuver stalling at all, or just not well? I don't own it so I'm just curious.

[ZaltysZ]

Are you saying that Clod doesn't model high-AoA maneuver stalling at all, or just not well? I don't own it so I'm just curious.

 

It does.

[gavagai]

It does.

 

Agreed. I don't think anything is wrong with Clod and high AoA. Clod doesn't feature an aircraft with a laminar flow wing. The leading edge slats on the 109 are especially good at preventing departure at high AoA.

 

My prediction is that there will be a mass migration to the Spitfire and 109 when DCS WWII is released. Only the committed will stick to the P-51 for low altitude dogfights.

[VincentLaw]

My prediction is that there will be a mass migration to the Spitfire and 109 when DCS WWII is released.

Funny you should say that.

You think that Mk IX will make you an absolute winner?

I have bad news for those who consider P-51 too stick sensitive and thus prone to stall... :)

As Spitfire has neutral stability there is only 3/4" of stick travel to stall as it was reported by NACA. Really silk hands or full scale joystick required... :)

It will be no mercy, hardcore only - all will be as Mitchell designed.

[gavagai]

I have already read that comment from Yo-Yo. I stand by my prediction.

 

In every flight sim I have played the Spitfire is a magnet for people who don't know a thing about BFM. If it ends up differently in DCS WWII I will be pleasantly surprised.

[PFunk1606688187]

In every flight sim I have played the Spitfire is a magnet for people who don't know a thing about BFM. If it ends up differently in DCS WWII I will be pleasantly surprised.

 

Reminds me of the endless tirade about how the Spit and La-7 were OP in IL-2.

 

What I assume is that people will always gravitate towards the TnB fighters over the BnZ ones. Its so much simpler to think about yanking on the stick than trying to manage energy in 3 dimensions for the multitude it seems.

[gavagai]

Yes, and having the luxury to fight to the death, die, and then takeoff again to practice some more.

[HellToupee]

Advantage spitfire has over the p51 is in the stall warning, it should be bufferting quite a bit before you pull hard enough to stall.

[HotTom]

http://www.warbirddepot.com/fighter_formation/documents/FFQP_Turn_Performance.pdf

 

A laminar flow wing is a terrible choice for high AoA maneuvers. My advice is to get a force feedback joystick. It's almost an unfair advantage when you are fighting other humans in a P-51 vs P-51 fight.

 

^

Agreed! My FFB G940 gives me plenty of warning when I approach any stall. It's sad that no one is making a force feedback stick these days but, if you have an older one or can buy one, you have a huge advantage with the P-51D.

 

In the instant mission, I own the Dora. When the stick starts shaking, I just back off a bit and completely avoid accelerated stalls.

 

I consider FFB the single most important feature in any flight sim joystick. Essential kit!

 

Hiya Gav!

 

TTT (HT)

Edited March 9, 2014 by HotTom

[Bounder]

It's a matter of practice, the Mustang is very different to the aircraft in Cliffs and you can't throw it around like the Spit or 109. Having said that I'd tend to agree with David - as someone who has been playing Cliffs relentlessly since day one, if there is high AoA stall modelled in the current patch, I've not noticed it. At high speed I just throttle back and can yank the stick momentarily as hard as I like to cut the tightest of turns or loops, or to get my sight on my enemy for the shot (unless I'm approaching at stall speed). Maybe I'm so used to Cliffs that I know exactly how much to pull. Also, don't get me wrong, I'm a Cliffs fanboy and it's great, it's been my main online pastime for the last couple of years. Anyways, regardless of differences or not between sims, the Mustang can't be manoeuvred as harshly and I found it a bit of a transition. I experienced exactly the same stuff as the OP - things got better after setting my joystick up so it matched the movement of the in-game flight stick and with lots of practice, especially against other players. I don't have a force feedback joystick but I can certainly imagine it helps with the Mustang, for me I just have to practice practice practice to learn the limitations of the Mustang in DCS. I find the dogfights in DCS very rewarding and they remind me of pilot accounts, flighting for that inch to pull my guns sight into my opponent as I follow him up or in the turn. It's bloody great and the more I play the more I love it.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Bounder

[otto]

The joystick also makes a huge difference. In a luftberry with a warthog or Microsoft ffb owner there was no way i could keep up and i was on 6 with a little more energy. In the same turn they could turn 2 times better. And i'm a very precise pilot .

[otto]

I have already read that comment from Yo-Yo. I stand by my prediction.

 

In every flight sim I have played the Spitfire is a magnet for people who don't know a thing about BFM. If it ends up differently in DCS WWII I will be pleasantly surprised.

 

I don't like the ones that choose to fly on a 20 % fuel load plus a drop tank so their spit behaves like a UFO after drop tank is released.

[ZaltysZ]

About CoD:

1) Spitfire, BF109 and etc. have higher critical AoA than P-51

2) There is somewhat exaggerated inertia of controls in CoD: you can throw stick around a lot, but aircraft will lag behind way more than in other sims.

3) Some planes like BF109 are realistically control heavy at high speeds: you can pull your joystick fully, but the same won't happen in aircraft as virtual pilot isn't supposed to have enough strength to overcome stick forces at high speed.

4) Accelerated stalls:

[ZaltysZ]

I don't like the ones that choose to fly on a 20 % fuel load plus a drop tank so their spit behaves like a UFO after drop tank is released.

 

I don't like the ones that do BnZ with Spits. They are the real pain :) Fortunately they are a minority, and this use case for Spit is like a secret technique, which is still unknown for most commoners. :smartass:

[Der_Fred]

Charly_Owl:

Check that your stick calibration is linear - this helps somewhat.

 

I think you're probably a bit over zealous with the stick at the moment. You can still do this but first get to know the limits. The P51 has plenty stall warning.. you just have to be aware of it.

 

The stall warning is a slight aircraft vibration that is noticeable, but it comes quick and fast, and will catch the unwary.

 

The way to handle it is be gentle on the elevator movements, pulling/pushing until the vibration starts, and then release the pressure a little.

You don't have to turn tight in the P51.. it'll turn tight by itself, even without flaps.. but you have to hold it just below the stall region.

This region moves up and down according to your speed.

 

'Practice makes Perfect'

:-)

[Charly_Owl]

Okay guys, thanks for the advice.

 

I put 0 curvature for all axes and I can say that going gentle on the controls really, really helps. I went from dogfighting the 190 and getting hit in 20 seconds to dogfighting the 190 for 10 whole minutes, landing a couple of hits on him (and me receiving very few in return), without stalling or spinning a single time. The fight was extremely interesting because the more I flew against the 190, the more I knew what I was doing. I kept mixing horizontal and vertical manoeuvers so we were never on the same plane and we would sometimes exchange positions: one second I'm on his tail firing my guns, the other he's able to extend and come back for another run, and then all of a sudden he's exchanging scissors with me. I would go offensive or defensive depending on my opponent's behaviour, which is very fun when you actually know what you're doing. Feels like... feels like you're "in control", or something.

 

Practice, practice, practice... just like you guys said. I just can't wait to try and test it online once multiplayer is more stable. Hopefully, we'll be able to have some very interesting fights with DCS WWII.:pilotfly:

Edited March 12, 2014 by Charly_Owl

[Der_Fred]

Here's a track to spin through.

 

Having not flown for a month or two, I'm busy toying with my new hardware, and the AI.. but it essentially shows that you can out-fly an opponent in the P51, even if you don't out-turn them.

:-)

long127Trk.trk

[msalama]

:huh: The track shows an AI Focke shooting you down. So who actually outflew who - or did I perchance misunderstand something?

[Der_Fred]

Nah... track corruption again - funny how they can never get this right ??

Track works fine on my PC..

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/os22jhe0nfn1655/Long127.jpg