Beyond Visual Range Struggles

[lunaticfringe]

Aaah, the Soviet AMRAAMSKI-blitz.

 

Do it in an F-15, and the Sukhoi and Mikoyan fans will say you're spamming. But it's okay that the operational doctrine their aircraft are built upon allows for it... ;)

[Frostie]

Rather than being multiple ARH missile shots the idea is to release a SARH missile followed by an IR missile to increase the chance of a kill by different seeker selection. If one fails the other being of a different seeker eg. IR, still has a chance to hit.

This is the idea rather than multiple missiles of the same variant being fired which could result in one failing so both/all fail.

[lunaticfringe]

I know exactly what it is, and it still amounts to being the equivalent to what others call spamming. That there is a shift in seeker head does not mitigate the fact that an ARH's probability for the second shot can be aided by attempts at defeating the first based on changes in relative aspect and defender energy; the second weapon has the higher probability of a hit not because it looks at the target a different way, but because the defender has less smack on the jet required to negotiate the orthogonal, and because he doesn't know it's coming when it could have affected his end game plan against the first weapon.

 

You say "помидор", I say "tomato".

[AegisFX]

Let's have a tournament and settle this matter with VIDEO GAME SCIENCE. Teams. Fighters. Missiles! What styles will win!

[lunaticfringe]

The drag is not an exception to the matter of defensive SA loss; your wingman/flight's situational awareness is not yours, and it doesn't matter how many bogey dopes they send over the radio- your actual awareness is based on what your five senses have within their grasp. Further, the point of the drag is offensive, not defensive; you're holding an opponent at a specific aspect, and intentionally *not* losing your situational awareness against him by maintaining visual, at least through the mirrors, in an attempt to keep him focused on you long enough to let your wingman kill him. You have tabs on your wingman with the RWR or visual as well in the far distance.

 

Unless, of course, you're a sucker, and then it's not going to matter, because you're going to die; you just don't know it.

 

If you're doing it right, however, defense is the last real thing on your mind. You might be able to quote from the regs on it, but you're playing lame because you want him to die.

 

That will, however, change, the instant the bad guy pulls the trigger. Your focus immediately shifts from your wingman's relative position to the position of the bad guy, and his inbound weapon. Period. Ergo, you just lost SA on one factor that may help you survive because you're fixated on the danger.

 

That's purely psychological. Offense is a theoretical exercise; sure, some have an instinct for it naturally, but 95% of the players have to be taught how to sharpen and employ their fangs.

 

Defense is different- it's primal. More effort is spent teaching pilots how not to overdefend too early, rather than get in the mindset in an emergency. It's a big, lonely sky without friends when the active weapon alarm goes off, or when your wingman yells "ATOLL"; he might tell you where in the sky to look, but the data, and the pilots will tell you- your brain is hard pressed to comprehend anything after that first warning. The mind over-compartmentalizes danger naturally, and there's very little someone can do about it.

 

Listening and watching debriefing tapes- that is, the real thing, its incredible to listen to dedicated air to air pilots with even just a few years in the saddle be able to quote chapter and verse exactly where an opponent is, and be able to rattle off exactly where he'll be in twenty seconds.

 

And then you hear a shot call. Every bit of that is gone. The mighty sound like they're grasping at straws, not because they don't know what they're doing, but because they must function as though their existence depends on it- because it does.

 

In closing, there's a MiG-25 driver from the first Gulf War who would like to tell you all about how to play bait and maintain SA, but he can't- he didn't maintain it, leveled out, tried to run early, and died for it. He was well and truly defensive, and it doesn't matter what the plan was, or how much he was talking to his element partner- he lost tabs on the two guys trying to kill him, and got splashed for it.

[blkspade]

While your point seems quite valid, on some level it falls completely out of the scope of defensive SA in the sim. The sense of urgency just doesn't exist within the sim to completely destroy your focus while defensive. What ever SA you entered the engagement with is likely to remain relatively close to the same level while defensive. Well enough practiced tactics and behaviors, tied to the constants (limitations) that exist within the sim allow for this. This is particularly true of being an Eagle driver in the sim. You know where your opponent is, what they are, and thus what kind of weapons you'll have to defend against vs range. With decent rear quarter visibility, if I knew where he was going in to the fight, I know right where to expect him should I be forced fully defensive. If its a BVR fight, then I will have forced them to defend as well (otherwise I'm doing it wrong in the first place), and so I know how they are highly likely to respond if they expect to live. That tells exactly where to put the radar, because I know he's there I just have to light him up for my missiles to do their job. At WVR ranges it doesn't change much except now looking at that volume of sky means I should actually be able to see him and what he's doing.

 

The drag is not an exception to the matter of defensive SA loss; your wingman/flight's situational awareness is not yours, and it doesn't matter how many bogey dopes they send over the radio- your actual awareness is based on what your five senses have within their grasp. Further, the point of the drag is offensive, not defensive; you're holding an opponent at a specific aspect, and intentionally *not* losing your situational awareness against him by maintaining visual, at least through the mirrors, in an attempt to keep him focused on you long enough to let your wingman kill him. You have tabs on your wingman with the RWR or visual as well in the far distance.

 

Unless, of course, you're a sucker, and then it's not going to matter, because you're going to die; you just don't know it.

 

If you're doing it right, however, defense is the last real thing on your mind. You might be able to quote from the regs on it, but you're playing lame because you want him to die.

 

That will, however, change, the instant the bad guy pulls the trigger. Your focus immediately shifts from your wingman's relative position to the position of the bad guy, and his inbound weapon. Period. Ergo, you just lost SA on one factor that may help you survive because you're fixated on the danger.

 

That's purely psychological. Offense is a theoretical exercise; sure, some have an instinct for it naturally, but 95% of the players have to be taught how to sharpen and employ their fangs.

 

Defense is different- it's primal. More effort is spent teaching pilots how not to overdefend too early, rather than get in the mindset in an emergency. It's a big, lonely sky without friends when the active weapon alarm goes off, or when your wingman yells "ATOLL"; he might tell you where in the sky to look, but the data, and the pilots will tell you- your brain is hard pressed to comprehend anything after that first warning. The mind over-compartmentalizes danger naturally, and there's very little someone can do about it.

 

Listening and watching debriefing tapes- that is, the real thing, its incredible to listen to dedicated air to air pilots with even just a few years in the saddle be able to quote chapter and verse exactly where an opponent is, and be able to rattle off exactly where he'll be in twenty seconds.

 

And then you hear a shot call. Every bit of that is gone. The mighty sound like they're grasping at straws, not because they don't know what they're doing, but because they must function as though their existence depends on it- because it does.

 

In closing, there's a MiG-25 driver from the first Gulf War who would like to tell you all about how to play bait and maintain SA, but he can't- he didn't maintain it, leveled out, tried to run early, and died for it. He was well and truly defensive, and it doesn't matter what the plan was, or how much he was talking to his element partner- he lost tabs on the two guys trying to kill him, and got splashed for it.

[lunaticfringe]

While your point seems quite valid, on some level it falls completely out of the scope of defensive SA in the sim.

 

That is a valid contention, but it was not the original point being made with a poor comparison. If one wants to discuss the merits of maintaining SA in a simulation versus the real life comparison that was struck, then we can have that conversation.

 

Further, if someone wants to provide the time and money to produce the necessary blind research methodology, we can recreate any number of US DoD/UK MoD experiments on the subject that would confirm that even with a simulation, awareness of what is happening breaks down at the point at a call that demands immediate response.

[GGTharos]

Perhaps we should just ask the question:

 

"How does one measure Situational Awareness?" ... and then answer it to the best of our abilities.

 

I won't call this OT because I consider SA to be a huge part of 'BVR Struggles'.

 

In the case of the OP, I believe there is a lack of detailed knowledge of the systems which would help him a lot, followed by an understanding of tactics, bandit psychology (which of course feeds directly into tactics) and a slew of other things.

 

Edit:

 

There seems to be a few key tactics that separate the good from the flying bulleyes, but whenever I try to apply them, I end up with a face full of missile. I guess the best way to reply to this is a lesson on how to effectively engage BVR. I do not want a military technical manual, that is not useful to me here. I want people to elaborate tactics that can help me become better without having to bust open one of those damn things.

 

You need the technical manual for this game. You need to know exactly how the systems work, why they do the things they do, and how they do them. That technical knowledge is the very beginning of forming BVR tactics. Yes, you can collect tactics from people and use those - they'll work until you run into the guys with the technical knowledge. It could be worse, you could be missing a critical piece of information that'll get you shot down even if you don't run into them.

Edited March 13, 2014 by GGTharos

[TAW_Blaze]

It's not OT at all, if you don't know how to build, maintain and regain your SA you won't do jack**** in any type of air combat..

Edited March 13, 2014 by <Blaze>

[lunaticfringe]

It's important to understand that the brain's ability to process information in real time is finite, and that the instant a higher level demand is placed upon it, the comprehension of comparatively lower level data that may have been kept in balance cumulatively will suffer. This cannot be mitigated in any environment, real or simulated; it's simply the way our cognitive abilities work.

 

That acknowledged, good tactics (meaning successful BVR) are predicated on generating a situational awareness problem for the opponent. Shots in the bracket or pincer, joined with changes in aspect and altitude, confuse the bad guy for the followup, because he can't juggle all of the balls necessary to both track the shooter, defend the shot, and keep the position of the shooter's formation pal in his mental picture of the engagement. There are radar and offensive RWR tricks that can be used to help alleviate this degradation, but all of this goes away in the shot endgame, and must be recovered before a second launch is inbound.

 

That is to say you're starting at zero.

[sobek]

It's not OT at all' date=' if you don't know how to build, maintain and regain your SA you won't do [...'] in any type of air combat..

 

</officer's casino mode>

 

Please mind that this forum is rated for everyone.

Edited March 14, 2014 by sobek

[TAW_Blaze]

</officer's casino mode>

 

Please mind that this forum is rated for everyone.

 

There you go. Now edit that quote out or it's you that breaks the rule! :D

[hvymtal]

I understand the aircrafts very deeply. I know the capabilities of the APG-63/70, the N019, and N001. I know the TWRs of the planes, the weights of the missiles and fuel tanks, the range and speed figures, etc. I don't need a technical manual because I am basically a walking one. That's why I asked to not give one. I can maintain SA very well in CAC and BVR. I can anticipate what the bandit is thinking in BVR. I have High-functioning autism; My brain works at lightspeed. I can process more information in a second than most people who actually train their brains can. I can keep my SA in BVR.

 

I don't need a damn situational awareness lecture, I need tactics

Edited March 16, 2014 by hvymtal

[hitman]

Best tactical advice? Find a few buddies online and develop techniques. Here are a few Ive learned over the years.

 

1. Trail formation gives the enemy at your 12 o'clock a stacking problem on radar. The ships behind you are hard to separate from the radar screen.

2. Go high - low. Wingmen that go high and low give an altitude problem hard to see on radar.

3. Go wall and spread out - wingmen that spread out give the enemy an azimuth problem and may have issues tracking all aircraft within his radar cone.

 

Thats about as far as my BVR knowledge goes...its limited, and it sucks.

[lunaticfringe]

If you're that far inside the bandit's OODA loop, what to do should be apparent.

 

Relative performance, weaknesses, and overlap is what defines tactics. If you know the information half as well as you claim, developing tactics is a remedial exercise; all it takes is repetition to learn how to employ them in the moment with precision.

[AtaliaA1]

I understand the aircrafts very deeply. I know the capabilities of the APG-63/70, the N019, and N001. I know the TWRs of the planes, the weights of the missiles and fuel tanks, the range and speed figures, etc. I don't need a technical manual because I am basically a walking one. That's why I asked to not give one. I can maintain SA very well in CAC and BVR. I can anticipate what the bandit is thinking in BVR. I have High-functioning autism; My brain works at lightspeed. I can process more information in a second than most people who actually train their brains can. I can keep my SA in BVR.

 

I don't need a damn situational awareness lecture, I need tactics

 

 

 

 

Application of tactics and skills in a real world environment. From the makers of Falcon 4.0. But with your knowledge you have probably seen this already. Others who come here may not have.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=A5laDQe0w6w

[NoJoe]

Application of tactics and skills in a real world environment. From the makers of Falcon 4.0. But with your knowledge you have probably seen this already. Others who come here may not have.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=A5laDQe0w6w

 

That video is all dogfighting, though. There's not a whole lot out there about BVR..

 

My favorite video that covers some BVR is in a vid about F/A-18C pilots that travel to Germany to participate in mock combat against the former East German MiG-29s. Anyway, there's a segment where the Hornets "fire" (simulated) AMRAAMs, crank, then notch as the missiles go pitbull. There are some interesting in-cockpit views showing just how aggressive the notch maneuver is, and it's interesting to listen to the communications and sequence of the engagement.

 

Watch this video, starting around 5 minutes in and lasting through into the next video.

 

It might not be anything new to you guys, but it's really the only look at BVR that I've ever found.

[[Knight]]

Engine solid-fuel rocket motor

Wingspan 20.7 inches (530 mm) (AIM-120A/B)

Operational

range

• AIM-120A/B 55–75 km (30–40 nm)[3][4]

• AIM-120C-5 >105 km (>57 nm)[5]

• AIM-120D (C-8) >180 km (>97 nm)[6]

Speed Mach 4

Guidance

system

INS, active radar

 

The info for this is out there not secret. FIX IT. Have a nice day.

[Frostie]

Engine solid-fuel rocket motor

Wingspan 20.7 inches (530 mm) (AIM-120A/B)

Operational

range

• AIM-120A/B 55–75 km (30–40 nm)[3][4]

• AIM-120C-5 >105 km (>57 nm)[5]

• AIM-120D (C-8) >180 km (>97 nm)[6]

Speed Mach 4

Guidance

system

INS, active radar

 

The info for this is out there not secret. FIX IT. Have a nice day.

 

If there is no secret then do tell at what altitudes those ranges apply to.

[RIPTIDE]

I've been flying the SU-27 for a couple of weeks. Doing research, trying to figure out flight patterns, evasive maneuvers and all that.

 

But Right now I'm actually getting quite frustrated by the damn fact that NOTHING seems to be working. The notch, energy fighting, turn fighting, beaming the missile ( biggest joke ever in my honest experience. ) and plenty of others.

 

The RWR goes silent, so I assume I've broken contact or I've been fired upon by a heat seeking missile. Big joke. RWR goes silent for like 7 to 10 seconds, still get hit. Guess what? Aim120. I've been Beaming it's original location Gaining & losing altitude flaring&Chaff. ( Still haven't had the slightest visual on any missile because there seems to be NO smoke trail after the first 2 seconds of it being fired.

 

Or if I do hear the RWR, same story. try notch, or beaming, out turning it, out climbing it, plumbing it to the ground but nooooo still get hit.

 

Right now my average score is 10 deaths to 1 kill m'right? Did get a Mig. or a louzy Ground attack aircraft.

 

Bit frustrating when there's absolutely no improvement for weeks, despite hours and hours of research, trying, and putting effort into it.

 

The same results seem to occur wether I'm flying at 30.000ft or 30ft to 50ft.

 

Close A2A however I have noooo problems or what so ever. Doing pretty good on the contrary.

 

I would terribly love to have some explanations right here. Do I just seem to be the terribly unlucky noob facing the 5 years experienced fighter pilot everytime or what?

http://flankertraining.com/ironhand/a2a.htm

[TAW_Blaze]

If there is no secret then do tell at what altitudes those ranges apply to.

 

Missile kinematic range is only a matter of ONE parameter. That wiki info though.

 

:megalol:

[howie87]

I like to reach out and touch something with an AIM-7, crank and keep the bandit right on the edge of the radar, drop a little altitude and keep my eyes out the window to watch for the splash, then roll in and follow up with an AIM-9 on the wingman.

 

Works well I if you've got the drop on a lower threat target.

[RIPTIDE]

I understand the aircrafts very deeply. I know the capabilities of the APG-63/70, the N019, and N001. I know the TWRs of the planes, the weights of the missiles and fuel tanks, the range and speed figures, etc. I don't need a technical manual because I am basically a walking one. That's why I asked to not give one. I can maintain SA very well in CAC and BVR. I can anticipate what the bandit is thinking in BVR. I have High-functioning autism; My brain works at lightspeed. I can process more information in a second than most people who actually train their brains can. I can keep my SA in BVR.

 

I don't need a damn situational awareness lecture, I need tactics

Have you watched any/many Tacviews or Tracks, from your endeavourers? Do you understand where your success and your failures lie?

[howie87]

Tacview is invaluable. Probably the greatest tool ever created for DCS.

[Frostie]

I understand the aircrafts very deeply. I know the capabilities of the APG-63/70, the N019, and N001. I know the TWRs of the planes, the weights of the missiles and fuel tanks, the range and speed figures, etc. I don't need a technical manual because I am basically a walking one. That's why I asked to not give one. I can maintain SA very well in CAC and BVR. I can anticipate what the bandit is thinking in BVR. I have High-functioning autism; My brain works at lightspeed. I can process more information in a second than most people who actually train their brains can. I can keep my SA in BVR.

 

I don't need a damn situational awareness lecture, I need tactics

 

You say you don't need an SA lecture, well flying solo in a full server requires a level of SA I reckon you're not building and that is your friendly fighters poitions and actions. This is crucial in helping you to know when to press and when to defend. Because of a lack of D/L you need to be scanning for friendlies as well as bandits.

 

Going 1v1, tactically it is straight forward, you need to first have the best weapons, Fire and Forget, then you need to learn the best times to employ them to get your opponent defending more than you. In words its simple, practicing it takes time, but no amount of quick thinking will prevail over superior learned procedure. The situation may vary but the practice is the same.