"Game" difficulty A2A refueling?

[Scrim]

I've started this thread with the intention of discussing (that is, please contribute with pro/con arguments, not just votes) the concept of having the option to have a "game" difficulty A2A refueling in DCS. Not replacing the harder, more realistic one of course.

 

Currently, I would not think it an exaggeration to say that less than 10% of those who fly modern fast movers such as the A-10C or the F-15C in DCS are actually proficient enough to take on even enough fuel to compensate for the fuel spent trying to connect to the tanker.

 

Now, with the A-10C, that might not be a huge problem, since it has such a long loiter time that most will probably not play any mission long enough to exhaust a 100% fuel load. However, with time we'll see at least two A-10C level simulated fast mover, the Eurofighter Typhoon and the F/A-18E. These planes lack the loiter time of the A-10C, and would thus be fully dependent on A2A refueling in order to loiter for any longer duration.

 

So how about adding the option to tick in a "Game difficulty A2A refueling" box in the Special Options menu, which makes A2A refueling much easier, perhaps by automating it or something else?

Edited April 25, 2014 by Scrim

[Cali]

I guess I'm part of that 10%, but it would be nice for the pilots that can't do it.

[lunaticfringe]

The one suggestion that I would make regarding getting onto the boom may be one that would be an option for either ED, or the player with the right hardware: reduced control authority after cleared to contact. This is one of the areas where the enhanced resolution of sim gear versus small throws on them causes a massive amount of disconnect with the fine tuning.

 

If someone has Thrustmaster gear, it's easy to tie a reduction in axis authority to activation of the refueling port, and vice versa, as a toggle.

 

Better basket/boom logic on the part of the AI, tuned response after clearance, and perhaps a mission within some added visual cues to the KC/IL included on the model (meaning two models, but no big deal for this purpose), and I expect the number of connects would go up exponentially.

[GGTharos]

The virtual boom operator needs some help/fixing IMHO, after this it shouldn't be quite that hard.

 

You just need the right curves on the stick and a bunch of station-keeping practice.

[EtherealN]

The virtual boom operator needs some help/fixing IMHO, after this it shouldn't be quite that hard.

 

And, for them lols, could make the virtual boom operator "pick up" the Skill level designated to the aircraft in the mission editor. For those times when you want to really annoy your server's patrons. :D

[Scrim]

Maybe an assistance slider, like the "Take off" assistance for the P-51D and the TF-51?

 

Having the tanker call out which speed it'll do for the refueling (and for crying out loud, stop turning all the time). It would at least make it easier to get to pre-contact.

[lunaticfringe]

It's a track. If he flies straight, depending on where he's at in the track revolution, he comes towards contested airspace. That sounds like a brilliant idea, huh?

 

As for determining speed, that's what your *radar* is for.

[GGTharos]

Tanker should fly a set speed for the aircraft he's refueling. That's a mission design thing, but it should also be an AI think - it should just do it, but it doesn't right now.

 

As for turning - again, learn to fly formation. A B-52 can refuel in a 2g turn (60 deg), why can't you do it in a 30 deg turn?

 

The answer is practice with some practice on top and practice sprinkles.

[SkateZilla]

as for small corrections, I guess I'm cheating if I use the trim hat instead of the stick to make the small corrections when flying formation with the tanker/pre-contact.

 

:music_whistling::music_whistling:

[lunaticfringe]

as for small corrections, I guess I'm cheating if I use the trim hat instead of the stick to make the small corrections when flying formation with the tanker/pre-contact.

 

:music_whistling::music_whistling:

 

What's that old sayin'- "if you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'".

 

But it's not cheating at all. The flip side of the argument, though, is that there are adjustments that should be done with the trim, and adjustments that should be done with deflection. Or, in the case of the Eagle, with knees locked on the box and fingertips on the stick.

[GGTharos]

Some pilots will trim slightly nose down so that they have to keep constant back-pressure while refueling.

 

as for small corrections, I guess I'm cheating if I use the trim hat instead of the stick to make the small corrections when flying formation with the tanker/pre-contact.

 

:music_whistling::music_whistling:

[Cali]

Tanker should fly a set speed for the aircraft he's refueling. That's a mission design thing, but it should also be an AI think - it should just do it, but it doesn't right now.

 

As for turning - again, learn to fly formation. A B-52 can refuel in a 2g turn (60 deg), why can't you do it in a 30 deg turn?

 

The answer is practice with some practice on top and practice sprinkles.

 

Some people don't have the time to practice nor the skill to do it. Like you said in a different post, if they set their stick up right it would help them a lot.

[towsim]

http://www.ariescon.com/Air refueling for beginners.pdf

[TAW_Blaze]

as for small corrections, I guess I'm cheating if I use the trim hat instead of the stick to make the small corrections when flying formation with the tanker/pre-contact.

 

:music_whistling::music_whistling:

 

Trim is worthless on the F-15 atm, I can do way more precise adjustments with the stick, without having any curves.

[McBlemmen]

I think it makes alot of sense to have it in , since we also have things like easy radio. It would enable pilots who cant A2A refuel to fly much longer , and better missions

[TimeKilla]

I've never attempted this as am into rotary wing and just getting into fixed wing right now but the difficulty to me is part of the reward and what makes DCS a true high fed sim someone else might want something else dubbed down then something else.

 

I understand it would be something you don't need to use so that makes it a little more ok I suppose.

[shagrat]

http://www.ariescon.com/Air refueling for beginners.pdf

 

Link broken - 404 Error with redirect to advertisement...

[OB1]

Yes it is hard but you don't need to be that proficient at it to refuel successfully. The problem most people have is the feedback as a game cannot give you a perfect awareness of momentum, drift that you feel in real life. That in conjunction with either cheap low resolution flight controllers or controllers sensitivity not calibrated correctly or both, and of course general proficiency which only gets better with time in the seat.

 

I personally would not be content with a compromise in difficulty as I strive for realism in simulation, and this is one game in a very niche market that provides a level of simulation I am satisfied with. Simply put I would not get the same level of satisfaction after a successful in-flight refuel if it was dumbed down. I'm perfectly content pealing away from a tanker stiff, white knuckled and dripping with sweat :joystick:

[Scrim]

Starting to regret including a poll, because no one has said why this hypothetical, optional feature shouldn't be introduced. Aside from the Game difficulty settings in avionics and such, we already have assists similar to what I'm proposing. Control helper for the Mi-8, and even closer, take off assistance and auto rudder for the P-51D.

[cichlidfan]

Something to keep in mind, as well, is the fact that most of the DCS users who would be likely to vote yes, are not forum members.

[towsim]

Sorry, my fault. Here the correct link...

http://www.ariescon.com/AirRefuelingforBeginners.pdf

[Scrim]

Something to keep in mind, as well, is the fact that most of the DCS users who would be likely to vote yes, are not forum members.

 

Not quite the point of what I wrote. 25 people have voted no, saying it has no place in DCS, despite similar assistance features already being available. But no one has said why it shouldn't exist. Some have said why they don't personally need it, but no one has said why others shouldn't get to have it.

[GGTharos]

Because it has to do with your basic flying.

Unlike the P-51 aid, which may be helpful to those without rudder pedals, there's no need to use anything but throttle and stick for refueling.

 

If you can't do it, and don't want to practice so that you can know do it, then just ... don't do it.

 

You may as well ask for a dog-fighting simplification that shows you where to fly. In other words, basic flying skills.

Edited April 26, 2014 by GGTharos

[Sharpe_95]

I am an accomplished AAR user and love the complexity and the learning curve. I see no reason not to have a simpler (game) level AAR, not so long as it doesn't effect the sim/current way AAR works.

 

-Sharpe

Edited April 26, 2014 by Sharpe_95

[Scrim]

Because it has to do with your basic flying.

Unlike the P-51 aid, which may be helpful to those without rudder pedals, there's no need to use anything but throttle and stick for refueling.

 

If you can't do it, and don't want to practice so that you can know do it, then just ... don't do it.

 

You may as well ask for a dog-fighting simplification that shows you where to fly. In other words, basic flying skills.

 

Nice tone there. I would hardly call A2A refuelling (or dogfighting) basic flying skills. It just isn't. A real world pilot has been quoted on these forums as saying that you have to train until "your hands bleed" to learn it. It is literally speaking one of the most complicated aspects of military aviation. And in DCS we lack the FOV, the visual and physical ques of how the plane handles, as well as competent boom operators.

 

Assists already exist. Everything from game avionics, HUD, etc. to the ones I mentioned. Should they be removed then? The only thing mentioned that could solely be for people without rudder panels is the auto rudder. If the take off assistance, which is the most needed help for the P-51D had been intended for people without rudder pedals it would've been a box to tick in. It's not. It's a percentage slider.

 

As it is, I can't do A2A refuelling. True. But it's not for lack of hardware, or time spent trying. I'm almost positive I've spent more time trying to learn that one thing than I had to spend learning the avionics and flying of the A-10C.