SU-35 vs F-22

[Scrim]

Aye, never ever trust Wiki. I came damn near close to risking my history grades over using it as a source. Before and when I wrote my final, biggie history essay, good ol' Wikipedia was adamant that there had only been two (2) wars ever fought between democracies, and as such, I concluded in my great essay, that global, world wide democracy was the answer to eternal peace.

 

Needless to say, when I checked the same article a few weeks later, it had skyrocketed into over a hundred wars fought between democracies listed in the Wikipedia article alone :P

[Falcon_S]

You've got a point Scrim, thanks for the clarification.

 

I did say it was Wiki after all.

 

Of course that Wikipedia is not a relevant source. But ... You can always see attached video.

 

...and can we back to the topic, please?

F-117.rar

[Scrim]

Yes Falcon, an F-117 was shot down during Allied Force. I think that has been established by all parties.

[USARStarkey]

"Stelt technology"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/balkans/stories/kosovo032899.htm

 

Iv'e noticed something. You seem to think that the F-22 and F-117 are the same thing, or at the very least that a stealth aircraft are the same in capability. Furthermore, you should know that the F-117 that was shot down was the result of massive effort of coordinated air defense units trying to stop a single plane. They managed to jury-rig a radar system to find the F-117 and then guess where the F-117 was in the ground clutter. On top of this, they had to rely on visual spotters, and the fact that they knew where to point their radar to find the F-117 because the Americans had been flying the exact same ingress route every day.

[USARStarkey]

GG Tharos and some others do not understand.Thay clame F 22 can kill Rafale and other planes,becouse thay can aproach unnoticed.Stelt technology gives him that possibility.So finaly,we are all agree.Stelt does not mean invisivible?Or we need more profs?

 

Once again you exercise your magnificent powers of grammer.

 

So if stealth is so useless, why does every single 4.5 Gen fighter like the Su-35/Rafale have a reduced RCS on some level? Furthermore, if the Su-35 is the baddest thing in town, why do the Russians need to develop the PAK-FA at enormous monetary expense? If they can produce Su-35s for 65 million USD and shoot down 140,000,000 dollar Raptors, why do they need to make 100 million dollar PAK-FA's and utilize the same "useless" as you would say-"Stelt" technology.

 

Also, stealth only means not invisible in a purely academic sense. Aircraft and ground based radars filter things as small as the F-22 out because if they didn't they would be useless against all aircraft because the screen would be full of ground clutter. If it doesn't appear on the radar scope- it is effectively invisible. With the right frequency, you could pick up the raptor, but you'd also be looking at a screen so busy that it would be completely useless to you and you still wouldn't be able to see the raptor.

[RIPTIDE]

What missile are we proposing the Su-35 is going to be armed with when considering the match up? Has the Novatar K-100/172 been sighted yet?

[159th_Viper]

Has the Novatar K-100/172 been sighted yet?

 

2007, Moscow Air Show:

 

[JNASova]

Once again you exercise your magnificent powers of grammer.

 

So if stealth is so useless, why does every single 4.5 Gen fighter like the Su-35/Rafale have a reduced RCS on some level? Furthermore, if the Su-35 is the baddest thing in town, why do the Russians need to develop the PAK-FA at enormous monetary expense? If they can produce Su-35s for 65 million USD and shoot down 140,000,000 dollar Raptors, why do they need to make 100 million dollar PAK-FA's and utilize the same "useless" as you would say-"Stelt" technology.

 

Also, stealth only means not invisible in a purely academic sense. Aircraft and ground based radars filter things as small as the F-22 out because if they didn't they would be useless against all aircraft because the screen would be full of ground clutter. If it doesn't appear on the radar scope- it is effectively invisible. With the right frequency, you could pick up the raptor, but you'd also be looking at a screen so busy that it would be completely useless to you and you still wouldn't be able to see the raptor.

 

Stelt is not useless.It gives SOME advantage.It reduce size of reflecting surfaces.F 15 and Su 27 have about 12 meters square reflecting surfaces.F 22 desing gives only 0,4.And that is something. In war situations,some and something is better that nothing.Thats why all countries are interested for stelt planes.But stelt technology does not makes planes totaly invisivibe for radars as some people think,and US propaganda want to makes them to belive.Soviet scientist explaned how to detect stelt plane even with older radars,if you know what to looking for.

[NineLine]

Once again you exercise your magnificent powers of grammer.

 

 

Debate all you want, be passionate about your beliefs... but no personal attacks, I remind everyone that this is a forum with people from all over the world, not everyone has English as their first language. This thread has drifted close to a lock a couple times, lets keep it civil guys, and this isnt just pointed at one person.

[NOLA]

What missile are we proposing the Su-35 is going to be armed with when considering the match up? Has the Novatar K-100/172 been sighted yet?

RVV-BD.

[GGTharos]

Like I said before, you are very late to this party.

 

0.4m^2 is more like an F-18E RCS, possibly Typhoon and Rafale as well.

 

Raptor is 0.00something, F-117 is claimed around 0.01 or less.

 

Halving radar detection range requires a 16-fold reduction in RCS (16^1). If you want to cut the detection range to 1/4 then you need to have a 256-fold reduction in RCS (16^2), and so on and so forth. Stealth aims to minimize RCS to the point where it makes some part of your offensive/defensive system next to useless, likewise for IR stealth (though here the numbers will look different). There is plenty of testimony of pilots saying that they cannot lock onto an F-22 even though they can visually see it, but I know that this was not the story you were looking for.

 

Of course, ground-based radars and fighter-mounted radars are also quite a bit different in terms of available power.

 

You haven't told anyone anything new. All this stuff you're talking about is very old news, and you didn't get half of it right either - all you had to do to see how much discussion there has been about this is to use this forum's search engine.

 

By the way, please point out where in this thread someone said the F-117 or F-22 was 'invisible'?

 

Stelt is not useless.It gives SOME advantage.It reduce size of reflecting surfaces.F 15 and Su 27 have about 12 meters square reflecting surfaces.F 22 desing gives only 0,4.And that is something. In war situations,some and something is better that nothing.Thats why all countries are interested for stelt planes.But stelt technology does not makes planes totaly invisivibe for radars as some people think,and US propaganda want to makes them to belive.Soviet scientist explaned how to detect stelt plane even with older radars,if you know what to looking for.

[hitman]

 

By the way, please point out where in this thread someone said the F-117 or F-22 was 'invisible'?

:music_whistling:

[USARStarkey]

Stelt is not useless.It gives SOME advantage.It reduce size of reflecting surfaces.F 15 and Su 27 have about 12 meters square reflecting surfaces.F 22 desing gives only 0,4.And that is something. In war situations,some and something is better that nothing.Thats why all countries are interested for stelt planes.But stelt technology does not makes planes totaly invisivibe for radars as some people think,and US propaganda want to makes them to belive.Soviet scientist explaned how to detect stelt plane even with older radars,if you know what to looking for.

 

Yes because 600 billion dollar RnD programs and 100+ million dollar planes bought for their stealth is justifiable if you are just trying to gain something that is such a tiny advantage that is "something" over "nothing".............

[BronzeBuddha]

In a fight where they started fairly with guns only (the Typhoon guy knew where the Raptor was), in the end they ended up with even scores. The F-22 is twice the weight of the Typhoon.

 

 

 

Yeah, like I said, Su-35 will do Cobra/Kulbit and Raptor will eject.

 

I think it was Distant Frontier in Red Flag Alaska 2012. Reportedly there were 8 WVR engagements, and the Typhoon won 4? How many did the Raptor win?

Edited May 17, 2014 by BronzeBuddha

[Winfield_Gold]

 

As pilot of the F 117 said him self ,he is downed by missiles.Missiles are giuded with radar from the ground.So,stelt IS NOT invisivible.Same thing with F 22.

 

The radar operator who initially picked this guy up on radar fired the missiles then turned off the radar tracking. He calculated the speed at which the missiles was heading and the time of flight it would take to reach that altitude. When he thought the missiles where within a close enough range, he turned on the radar tracking again. The pilot of Vega 3-1 did not have time to avoid the missiles or launch countermeasures. That is was brought the plane down

 

Vega 3-1 remains the only stealth aircraft to have been shot down by an enemy missile in the history of stealth fighters in a combat zone. Designs have changed from the "have blue" project, otherwise the B-2 would be based on the shape as the F-117 and the F-22 would also be more triangle in design.

 

Is the F-22 more invisible to ground radar than the SU-35 in design? I would say yes but in the air, both aircraft fitted with IRST I would say they are evenly matched. Then it comes down to who has the better missiles

[NineLine]

I think it was Distant Frontier in Red Flag Alaska 2012. Reportedly there were 8 WVR engagements, and the Typhoon won 4? How many did the Raptor win?

 

That is the great thing about the internet, you can find any facts you would rather believe...

 

Nearly every mainstream media account of the engagements did not feature the input of American pilots. The American media has a tenancy to report what will get attention and sell newspapers which is not necessarily the truth. The only reporter to get the input of American Raptor pilots that I found was Flight Global reporter Dave Munjar. Not surprisingly, American accounts differ substantially from their German counterparts.

 

"It sounds as though we have very different recollections as to the outcomes of the BFM [basic Fighter Maneuvering] engagements that were fought...We ended up with numerous gunshots" - Unnamed USAF pilot

 

"I did review the HUD footage, a lot of gun shots from the F-22's to the Eurofighters and not a whole lot coming back" - Unnamed USAF pilot

 

"USAF sources say that the Typhoon has good energy and a pretty good first turn, but that they were able to outmanoeuvre the Germans due to the Raptor's thrust vectoring. Additionally, the Typhoon was not able to match the high angle of attack capability of the F-22." - Dave Munjar

 

I cant verify any of this, but my point is made I think......

[six.dof]

To give my 2 cent.

F22 is technology from the 90's, even constantly improved, it is 90's

F117 be defeated in Yugoslavia war, ( Mig29 EOS or SA? Doesn't matter)

I think such specialize technology as stealth, have a quite short time advantage, as on the opposite side Russia and china have technology, and most important, money! To develop countermeasures to reduce or eliminate the advantage.

 

If a battlefield radar like Cobra can detect artillery shells, sure Radar can detect a Amram, the course, and speed will give the F22 position.

Sure in the year 2010, is possible to implement such capabilities in a airborne radar, update everyone via Datalink instantly.

 

It is depend on the situation, a clean BVR fight, without any AWACS, or ground radar support, I think F22 have advantage over the Su-35, Typhoon, Rafale........in a situation with AWACS and ground Radar support, I think F22 have no advantage, a good pilot know how to escape an Amram, if he know from where, height, and with how much energy the missile comes, in such situation, it comes quite fast to the dogfight situation, where in first place the pilots capability counts, second are the machine .

 

The past 70 years, there where no conflict between equal powers, for sure, getting Air dominance over a country like Irak, Afghanistan , Libya , the F15 is good enough, and the F22 will be even better, but a conflict for Taiwan, Baltic , I think the F22 would be not invisible and unbeatable as some writing here.

Maybe that is the reason why the US Government stop the production, as for less money nearly same capability available , F35 will face the same destiny as the F22 program.

 

And the last point

Anyone here believe, that the information in the internet are 100% reliable for military technology?

[TAW_Blaze]

F117 be defeated in Yugoslavia war

 

It's amusing to state 'defeated' even though they operated in the most dangerous environment anybody could envision yet they only lost a total of ONE aircraft.

 

If a battlefield radar like Cobra can detect artillery shells, sure Radar can detect a Amram, the course, and speed will give the F22 position.

 

The question is, how far can they do that. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't see any of that outside 50 nm and at that point this function is useless because your AWACS probably won't ever fly 50 nm away from the engagement.

 

I think the F22 would be not invisible and unbeatable as some writing here.

 

Nobody said it's invisible or unbeatable. The point is that it has a huge advantage.

[Agiel7]

To give my 2 cent.

F22 is technology from the 90's, even constantly improved, it is 90's

F117 be defeated in Yugoslavia war, ( Mig29 EOS or SA? Doesn't matter)

I think such specialize technology as stealth, have a quite short time advantage, as on the opposite side Russia and china have technology, and most important, money! To develop countermeasures to reduce or eliminate the advantage.

 

That is to ignore the fact that the Soviet Union lagged significantly against the west in the fields of C3I, materials science, opti-electronics, and so forth towards the end of the Cold War, and that the arms industries of the successor state stagnated for the better part of a decade. For instance, Russian thermal imagers are license built copies of last generation suites developed by Thales. And the 2008 war showed that their precision strike capability was close to non-existent.

 

On the issue of money: With 1% of the American economy, close to 1,200 F-22 Raptors can be built (if going by fly-away cost). With 1% of the Russian economy, little more than 300 of the much cheaper T-50 can be built (if the target fly-away cost actually holds true).

[RIPTIDE]

It's amusing to state 'defeated' even though they operated in the most dangerous environment anybody could envision yet they only lost a total of ONE aircraft.

.

NO really though. As far as I understand, the Yugoslav/Serbian Air defences were holding for the ground invasion before they swung into a more active stance. And even so, the Theatre level Air defence systems that they had were far from State of the Art at that particular time.

[BronzeBuddha]

That is the great thing about the internet, you can find any facts you would rather believe...

 

 

 

I cant verify any of this, but my point is made I think......

 

I believe it was a magazine (AirForces Monthy, IIRC) that reported that Typhoons won 4 of 8 BFM engagements. But still, not a whole lot from American sources. Reportedly the Luftwaffe Typhoons will be returning to a Red Flag this year, so we'll see what happens.

[Falcon_S]

To give my 2 cent.

F22 is technology from the 90's, even constantly improved, it is 90's

F117 be defeated in Yugoslavia war, ( Mig29 EOS or SA? Doesn't matter)

I think such specialize technology as stealth, have a quite short time advantage, as on the opposite side Russia and china have technology, and most important, money! To develop countermeasures to reduce or eliminate the advantage.

 

If a battlefield radar like Cobra can detect artillery shells, sure Radar can detect a Amram, the course, and speed will give the F22 position.

Sure in the year 2010, is possible to implement such capabilities in a airborne radar, update everyone via Datalink instantly.

 

It is depend on the situation, a clean BVR fight, without any AWACS, or ground radar support, I think F22 have advantage over the Su-35, Typhoon, Rafale........in a situation with AWACS and ground Radar support, I think F22 have no advantage, a good pilot know how to escape an Amram, if he know from where, height, and with how much energy the missile comes, in such situation, it comes quite fast to the dogfight situation, where in first place the pilots capability counts, second are the machine .

 

The past 70 years, there where no conflict between equal powers, for sure, getting Air dominance over a country like Irak, Afghanistan , Libya , the F15 is good enough, and the F22 will be even better, but a conflict for Taiwan, Baltic , I think the F22 would be not invisible and unbeatable as some writing here.

Maybe that is the reason why the US Government stop the production, as for less money nearly same capability available , F35 will face the same destiny as the F22 program.

 

And the last point

Anyone here believe, that the information in the internet are 100% reliable for military technology?

 

I completely agree.

 

On the question of which is better is difficult to answer. I think the Raptor has a slight advantage if we talking about a more difficult detection and Flanker has its own advantages too, so ... it all depends on the conditions under which they will enter the battle. Both are dangerous and if someone sends them to a direct fight then that someone will know how to exploit tactical advantages and disadvantages.

 

However, Su35 is 4 + + generation and that means something. It is equipped with avionics of the fifth generation and can compete with fighters of this generation under certain conditions. Su35 is not stealth but the Russians certainly have a reason for it and how to compensate and Raptor pilot can`t feel superior if he have the Su35 as a threat.

 

Availability military information on the Internet is questionable. If it's available, then there is something available for a reason.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Falcon_S

[JNASova]

@ GGTharos.

When we talked about how the French Rafale aircraft in exercises defeated F 22, you've argued that the real fight would not have happened that way, because F 22 would have approached unnoticed.

What makes you to belive,that other aircrafts sensores,Rafale,Su 35...cant detect F 22 radar radiation,and thair radars cant "see" and track F 22?

Why do you belive thay have no "solution" for such kind situation?

 

PS.I know the way of functioning AESA radar

[sobek]

Why do you belive thay have no "solution" for such kind situation?

 

Because the plane that has less RCS always has the detection advantage. The Raphale's radar is nowhere near superior enough to counter the smaller RCS of the F-22. The technology to detect a target with such low RCS from greater range simply doesn't fit onto a fighter sized airplane, period. If you don't believe us, ask Maxwell's equations.

[GGTharos]

@ GGTharos.

When we talked about how the French Rafale aircraft in exercises defeated F 22, you've argued that the real fight would not have happened that way, because F 22 would have approached unnoticed.

 

That's right, that is how it works.

 

What makes you to belive,that other aircrafts sensores,Rafale,Su 35...cant detect F 22 radar radiation,and thair radars cant "see" and track F 22?

 

So what if their RWRs can detect that the F-22 is there? You tell me, how does it help? The F-22 they detect can be 60nm away, feeding information to an F-22 20nm away. Even the F-22 that's 20nm away won't have problems when using it's radar.

 

It has already proven it can do things exactly this way. It has come into WVR range unnoticed against multiple opponents, and I will point out that those opponents are USAF agressors who can know exactly how teh F-22 stealth, radar, etc. works. They can have all the sensors in the world that know exactly how the F-22's stuff works, but they still can't defeat it ... because the F-22 can shoot them down before they ever see it on radar.

 

The F-22 has flown right up to AWACS planes and shot them and their escorts down - all in exercises of course.

 

By the time they 'see it', it's closing into WVR. This means the Raptor can have already maneuvered to approach its target from an angle outside of the radar gimbals. If it doesn't create contrails or something else for you to visually spot it, it will come in unnoticed ... especially if another one is drawing your attention. And all of this is AFTER passing through

 

Why do you belive thay have no "solution" for such kind situation?

 

Because I don't believe in magic. You seem to think that they magically have a solution, when the guys who own the F-22 do not ... and who's in the best position to come up with this solution, if not the guys who own the F-22?

 

PS.I know the way of functioning AESA radar

 

You don't seem to know much about anything. Your argument is basically 'bah stealth, you think the other guys don't have sensors that can see a stealth plane?'