KA50 Target Designator "a bad JOKE"

[Havner]

I tested it, and I can confirm that there is no sudden dive. The only "jerky" movement is caused by your own hand jerking when the FFB suddenly cuts out and back in. If you have proper control, click trimming will not cause a nose dive or anything of the sort with FFB.

 

Could you post a track similar to mine from post #97?

[lxsapper]

We weren't talking about the same exact circustances or way of dealing with trim. Replicating the track you posted with your steps of control the FFB stick behaves similarly, and the same nose dip occurs. However using clicktrims troughout the manuver or press-moving stick-releasing it does not. In fact it's dead stable using the latter method

[Havner]

We weren't talking about the same exact circustances or way of dealing with trim. Replicating the track you posted with your steps of control the FFB stick behaves similarly, and the same nose dip occurs.

 

Thank you.

 

However using clicktrims troughout the manuver or press-moving stick-releasing it does not. In fact it's dead stable using the latter method

 

If you click trimm very often you won't see much jerky movement because the AP didn't fight your authority much for it to be noticable. So the easiest way to test how this behaves was to do it similarly to my track.

 

I was just trying to figure out whether the sim interprets the "virtual joystick in the lower left corner" differently depending on what joy you use. Because that would've been strange and I've been led to believe that this is the case here and that's what people call a bug (e.g. there is a nose dive without FFB but there is none with FFB).

 

With your confirmation I don't see any bug in AP behaviour in BS.

[Flagrum]

We weren't talking about the same exact circustances or way of dealing with trim. Replicating the track you posted with your steps of control the FFB stick behaves similarly, and the same nose dip occurs. However using clicktrims troughout the manuver or press-moving stick-releasing it does not. In fact it's dead stable using the latter method

We were. Havner asked to exactly replicate what he did - so we can get a better idea of what exactly is going on behind the scenes when click-trimming.

 

Anyways, as FFB user (G940), I tried to replicate Havner's flight to produce a track, but my results were inconclusive (most likely due to my [lack] of flying skills).

Sometimes I had a slight nose dip, but waaay less pronounced than what Havner showed in his track (about 1/2 of what he had). In other cases (like ~ 3-4 out of 10) I had no nose dip at all.

Edited May 21, 2014 by Flagrum
spelling, lol (a nose is not a node ...)

[Itkovian]

Could you post a track similar to mine from post #97?

 

I will try tonight, bit busy.

 

I have to admit, however, I never tested with 150 knots of difference between trim positions. Maybe that plays a role. Either way, I'll try it out.

 

Itkovian

[Havner]

Havner asked to exactly replicate what he did - so we can get a better idea of what exactly is going on behind the scenes when click-trimming.

 

Precisely, thank you.

 

I have to admit, however, I never tested with 150 knots of difference between trim positions. Maybe that plays a role. Either way, I'll try it out.

 

Of course it does. The more the difference, the more authority AP uses, the bigger the dive.

I know, that what I did on the track is incorrect in terms of proper trimming, but as Flagrum well said, I'm trying to understand this way how does it work inside. And this gives definite results. The flight is stabilized, the dive is deep, no place for (mis)interpretation, just facts.

 

I thought this topic was about how ED is dropping down support on BS, not on how to use trim....

 

It has been accused in this thread that the trimmer doesn't work properly. I don't agree (or at least I think I don't cause this FFB situation has given me doubts). But I'd say this is on topic.

Edited May 21, 2014 by Havner

[lxsapper]

We were. Havner asked to exactly replicate what he did - so we can get a better idea of what exactly is going on behind the scenes when click-trimming.

 

Anyways, as FFB user (G940), I tried to replicate Havner's flight to produce a track, but my results were inconclusive (most likely due to my [lack] of flying skills).

Sometimes I had a slight nose dip, but waaay less pronounced than what Havner showed in his track (about 1/2 of what he had). In other cases (like ~ 3-4 out of 10) I had no nose dip at all.

 

On the second part I can concur, after further testing I also find it inconclusive. But when I say we were talking of diferent things you are butting in in a direct response I was giving to Havner. Only I can say to him or not if we were on the same page before I watched his track. I was not, the circustances he was refering the nose dip ocurs is not the same I was telling him they do not.

[RagnarDa]

Not true.

 

See the attached track. This is made WITH Central Position Trimmer Mode. TM Warthog (non-FFB obviously).

 

1. I press and hold the trimmer before take off

2. With the trimmer pressed I stabilize the heli at 75-80 and release the trimmer

3. I let it stabilize (HUD zoom, 80 is visible).

4. Then without touching the trimmer I push the stick forward (it's clearly seen that I fight the AP)

5. I accelerate to around 230 and let is stabilize.

6. Then I hit the trimmer (press and release)

 

Nose dive clearly visible.

The virtual stick in the bottom left corner didn't move at all. If you move the camera down a little you'll see that the stick inside the cockpit didn't move as well.

 

And I have no problem with this dive (it's not a bug to me) as I explain it (the best I can) with AP immediately releasing its 20% authority when you "click" the trimmer. I've described this in the following post (with image):

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2071011&postcount=52

 

Now, what I find strange is that people claim that this particular thing (like on the track) won't happen with FFB stick:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2071467&postcount=65

 

I find it hard to believe. But if that is really the case then my explanation must be wrong and there is some bug somewhere.

 

That's why I'd like to ask once again for someone with FFB stick to make exactly the same track I did and post it here please.

I watched it twice and it looks normal and as expected to me. First you fight the AP at all of its authority, then when you are at almost the end of the runway you click the trimmer which gives the AP a new attitude to hold, it fails to react quickly enough and the nose dives down a bit but as you are not moving your stick it cannot overcome it as before so it stabilizes at slightly below the target attitude. My suggestions for things that might be the reason this behavior is misinterpreted as a bug:

 

1. You forget that whenever you click the trimmer the AP's attitude hold function gets a new attitude target, and this coupled with the facts that it doesnt have full authority nor will it use the full 20% it has in all situations (to not overcompensate) it will not automatically return the chopper to the target attitude if you are fighting it.

 

2. The stick deflection doesn't correspond to a given attitude of the helicopter, even though the AP makes you feel that way. The helicopter is not inherently stable and if you move the stick forward with the AP off it will do negative loops forever (or until you crash).

 

Hope that helps.

 

Edit: I am fairly certain the same thing will happen with a FFB.

 

Edit 2: I might have misinterpreted your posts...

Edited May 21, 2014 by RagnarDa

[karambiatos]

Who ever has the FFB joystick, could you please take off, and trim the helicoter for forward flight, then keep the stick where it is, and start clicking the trim button fast, and tell us if both the virtual (the Rshift+enter screen) and the real stick move in any way

[Weta43]

I'm at work, but this :

Replicating the track you posted with your steps of control the FFB stick behaves similarly, and the same nose dip occurs. However using clicktrims troughout the manuver or press-moving stick-releasing it does not. In fact it's dead stable using the latter method

 

Isn't true for the MSFFB2.

 

I tested 'normally' (holding the stick) & behaviour was correct, then as a second check did the test below.

The FFB on the MSFFB2 is only activated when an optical sensor's line of sight to an LED is blocked. If you hold the stick in such a way that the sensor isn't blocked - the SIM sees it as a FFB stick, but there aren't any forces, and so there isn't any 'jump' ni the forces when you trim (& so no hand jump either).

 

If I

 

If I take my hand away from the sensor that implements FFB (to remove any kick), push the stick untrimmed till I have a stable altitude and constant speed of somewhere around 200Km/h, then still holding the stick steady with one hand push the trimmer with the other, the aircraft remains rock steady. If I block the sensor & start the FFB the stick stays where it is.

 

If there's any jump (dive) on pushing the trimmer with a FFB stick, it's the player's hand jumping as the forces change.

 

( at least on the version I used - if it's different on yours good things may be coming :) )

Edited May 21, 2014 by Weta43

[Havner]

If I take my hand away from the sensor that implements FFB (to remove any kick), push the stick untrimmed till I have a stable altitude and constant speed of somewhere around 200Km/h, then still holding the stick steady with one hand push the trimmer with the other, the aircraft remains rock steady. If I block the sensor & start the FFB the stick stays where it is.

 

If there's any jump (dive) on pushing the trimmer with a FFB stick, it's the player's hand jumping as the forces change.

 

Then I don't get it. So why is there a dive without FFB?

 

Could you please post a track of this tests?

[Irregular programming]

I don't even get the "bump" even without FFB, so I dunno.

[Havner]

I don't even get the "bump" even without FFB, so I dunno.

 

Check my track posted earlier.

[Irregular programming]

Check my track posted earlier.

 

I will tomorrow, it's getting really late here.

[acemark]

Hello. I read in ED forum somewhere that the trim cant be moddeld correctlly without a FFB joy stick. To compesate you get to do the " trimmer dance" as I recall it. This is not broken. ED is a stickler for authentisity, so wanting something thats not in the real A/C is unlikly.

 

Also the collective brake has not been mentioned here. It needs to be used to tell the FD what alltitude you want to fly. If you havent pressed it since takeoff ,the FD will try to return to take off elevation.

 

Upon reflecting on how I trim, first thought I use click method. No, I move the cyclic, A/C responds,press trim , return cyclic to exact center position,and release trim. SO not clicking, and not holding through complete manover. If I used/changed rudder position, It to is returned to center with the cyclic.

Trimming the KA-50 is a skill that must be practiced.

 

In reguards to shkval not working in rain, I havent ever noticed 'seen " actual rain. Please what mission is it in.

 

EDIT Sorry FFB should read Force trim.

Mark.

Edited May 22, 2014 by acemark

[Itkovian]

Who ever has the FFB joystick, could you please take off, and trim the helicoter for forward flight, then keep the stick where it is, and start clicking the trim button fast, and tell us if both the virtual (the Rshift+enter screen) and the real stick move in any way

 

Now THAT I can say that it does not. The only movement will be your own fault, due to the FFB motor turning off and on repeatedly.

[Itkovian]

I'm at work, but this :

 

 

Isn't true for the MSFFB2.

 

I tested 'normally' (holding the stick) & behaviour was correct, then as a second check did the test below.

The FFB on the MSFFB2 is only activated when an optical sensor's line of sight to an LED is blocked. If you hold the stick in such a way that the sensor isn't blocked - the SIM sees it as a FFB stick, but there aren't any forces, and so there isn't any 'jump' ni the forces when you trim (& so no hand jump either).

 

If I

 

If I take my hand away from the sensor that implements FFB (to remove any kick), push the stick untrimmed till I have a stable altitude and constant speed of somewhere around 200Km/h, then still holding the stick steady with one hand push the trimmer with the other, the aircraft remains rock steady. If I block the sensor & start the FFB the stick stays where it is.

 

If there's any jump (dive) on pushing the trimmer with a FFB stick, it's the player's hand jumping as the forces change.

 

( at least on the version I used - if it's different on yours good things may be coming :) )

 

Mine works that way as well, and I think your test proves it conclusively (well, it would if you posted a track :p), FFB sticks do not get the nose dive.

 

In fact, I'm pretty sure all FFB sticks have a switch like that, otherwise the motors would ALWAYS be pushing the stick, which would probably burn them out (you REALLY don't want your FFB stick operating when you're browsing the web :p).

[karambiatos]

Now THAT I can say that it does not. The only movement will be your own fault, due to the FFB motor turning off and on repeatedly.

cool, also does this perhaps happen when you are clicking fast, the ka-50 starts pitching up slowly, or starts to bank, basically the trim is changing its position, but there is no movement of the stick.

 

track in the newest beta.

Ka-50-2.trk

[doveman]

I've started or posted in several threads about this problem in the past. Most people just said I must be doing something wrong but I've never found a way to make the click-release trim method work without the KA-50 oversteering (i.e. lurching forward or to the left or right) and have had to just resort to using the click-hold method, which I don't really like using as it disengages the AP and makes the bird a bit unstable but it's better than the alternative.

 

I'm sure it must be a bug as the correct (i.e. Russian) method is click-release and they wouldn't be able to use it, if it actually oversteers like that in real life.

 

I don't have a FFB stick and have tried both the old and new center trim methods. I've bought a FFB2 on e-bay so I'll test with that once I get it to see if it's any different. Although I'm not sure I'm going to get it, as the seller's gone dark on me :mad:

[Havner]

Mine works that way as well, and I think your test proves it conclusively (well, it would if you posted a track :p), FFB sticks do not get the nose dive.

 

Seems we won't get this track. Clicking "save replay" is too much to ask :(

[ShuRugal]

 

I'm sure it must be a bug as the correct (i.e. Russian) method is click-release and they wouldn't be able to use it, if it actually oversteers like that in real life.

 

In real life this is not a problem because in real life the physical position of the cyclic stick and the physical position of the swash plate are fixed together: there is no overcorrection bump because when the AP moves the flight controls, the cyclic stick has to move with it, so clicking to disengage the AP does not cause the stick to jump (unless the pilot's hand jumps because of the reduced pressure on the stick).

 

The reason it jumps in the sim is because, with a non-FFB stick, the physical joystick you are holding is not fixed to the virtual controls in the aircraft. This means that when the autopilot moves the virtual stick, and your stick has not moved with it, when you press the trimmer and disengage the AP, the controls suddenly jump to where your physical stick is, instead of where the virtual controls are.

[Havner]

The reason it jumps in the sim is because, with a non-FFB stick, the physical joystick you are holding is not fixed to the virtual controls in the aircraft. This means that when the autopilot moves the virtual stick, and your stick has not moved with it, when you press the trimmer and disengage the AP, the controls suddenly jump to where your physical stick is, instead of where the virtual controls are.

 

So if you have a FFB joystick does the stick inside the cockpit (and your FFB one) move when the autopilot is maneuvering (e.g. ROUTE mode)?

[Flagrum]

In real life this is not a problem because in real life the physical position of the cyclic stick and the physical position of the swash plate are fixed together: there is no overcorrection bump because when the AP moves the flight controls, the cyclic stick has to move with it, so clicking to disengage the AP does not cause the stick to jump (unless the pilot's hand jumps because of the reduced pressure on the stick).

 

The reason it jumps in the sim is because, with a non-FFB stick, the physical joystick you are holding is not fixed to the virtual controls in the aircraft. This means that when the autopilot moves the virtual stick, and your stick has not moved with it, when you press the trimmer and disengage the AP, the controls suddenly jump to where your physical stick is, instead of where the virtual controls are.

Afaik, the discussion in this thread is already beyond that ... (especially it was agreed upon that the AP does not move the stick, neither in DCS nor in RL - swash plate and stick do not always correspond to each other)

[Havner]

Does anyone know a way to make the game think you have a FFB stick even if you don't have one? To "switch" the sim into FFB mode. Not to require to recenter after trim, etc. I know I'd have to keep the stick in the proper center position by myself (no servomotors) but at least I'd be able to compare the behaviour, cause it seems we won't get any meaningful track from a FFB owner anytime soon.

 

EDIT: E.g. creating some virtual USB device connected to a physical one (like ppjoy used to do) and make it introduce itself as MSFFB2.

Edited May 23, 2014 by Havner

[Flagrum]

Does anyone know a way to make the game think you have a FFB stick even if you don't have one? To "switch" the sim into FFB mode. Not to require to recenter after trim, etc. I know I'd have to keep the stick in the proper center position by myself (no servomotors) but at least I'd be able to compare the behaviour, cause it seems we won't get any meaningful track from a FFB owner anytime soon.

 

EDIT: E.g. creating some virtual USB device connected to a physical one (like ppjoy used to do) and make it introduce itself as MSFFB2.

Just enabling FFB=on in the options doesn't do the ... hrm, "trick"?