KA50 Target Designator "a bad JOKE"

[DieHard]

Over the many re-iterations and insults that are DCS patches ..... I have come to accept that the KA50 is being quietly allowed to fall into a slow decay from benign neglect. I could live with this slow fall into digital decay just as long as I could get my much loved "wobbly wing" to actually engage a target.

• Bad enough that the way the laser range designator cone jumps around, is making a total mockery of any self respecting weapons targeting designer. see here http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1529894&postcount=11 . and here http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1529908&postcount=13
  
• Bad enough that the KA50s premier long range BIG HITTER weapon (Karen) is now no more use than a EMPTY DROP TANK.
  
• Bad enough that the only way to get a full on intense combat experience with any ground attack aircraft is to FLY IN SINGLE PLAYER.
  
• now that the target designator refuses to ground stabilise (defaulting to auto sweep) because its raining this is making it almost impossible to engage anything ... well "I GIVE UP".
  

All that frustration has now reached a point of extreme irritation, so much so.... that after being a hard core fan from the very beginnings of this software developer, I am not only considering abandoning the KA50 I am really wondering if DCS is worth my continued time money or effort.

 

I fly the Ka-50 all the time in Multiplayer, about 90% of the time. I did not realize there was a problem. I trim it like it has been done since BS1. I never use the auto tracking switch, I always do it manually. I have no problem killing targets at night using the Shkval and the Vikhrs.

 

Good servers with active GV targets and action are S77th, 159th, 51st, 104th, STP, Hollo Pointe and Firehouse. There are others.

 

What I do not like and stay away from is since FC3 and the dam F-15's radar that can kill me 6 meters and above off the deck. FC3 ruined the fun of flying the Ka-50 in combat sorties. In a group/squad effort the copters should have adequate CAP cover to negate the enemy jets getting anywhere near us.

 

Cooper and Ajax are better Ka-50 sim pilots than I am and they always fly the Shark.

 

Allowing FC3 participation in DCSW is what has killed DCS for me.

 

Me, too, I spend more time, now, playing in the neglected Single Player and creating my own missions than playing in Multiplayer but only because of the FC3 F-15. From the very beginning I jumped right in to play in Multiplayer. I have never played any of the SP Campaigns.

 

I use CH Products Fighterstick, Pro Throttle and Pro Pedals. My Ka-50 profile I use using the CH Control Manager is 104th's Crunch I found listed in the CH Hangar helicopter downloads. My controllers USB connectors plug into the machine's USB ports not through a powered hub.

Edited May 26, 2014 by DieHard

[DieHard]

ka50 's main hydraulic is armored , (against 12.7 and 20 mm fragment?)

 

in dcs when we lose the main and common hydraulic we can still fly even 5 min after hydro loss( i think it should be impossible)

 

 

I have once in awhile gotten back to base, way back... , with very bad battle damage: no hydraulics, no AP, no HUD, no ABRIS, one engine. I landed it without gear and repaired it. I rearmed, got gas and off again. Best I have done in S77th server is 5 times out and back. Granted, sometimes it is like trying to fly a unbalanced washing machine in the spin cycle.

 

Real? Who in here flies a real Ka-50? Who in here will ever fly a real Ka-50? Who cares? I don't. I fly using a gaming simulator. I fly the aircraft within the limitations of the game. Ka-50 is the best aircraft in DCS with the A-10C and P-51D a close second and third.

[Migow]

so, what it boils down to, is that behaviour in the sim after hydraulic failure is unrealistic, because under real condition, you could never hope to continue flying the helicopter in such a state.

 

Which brings us back to another old problem: why does the KA-50 have dual hydraulics if they always fail together? If one takes battle damage and fails, the other immediately begins loosing pressure and fails moments later. They don't cross-feed at all, do they?

Because it's buggy , and the main hydro is armored : only 20mm ap bullet or more should damage the main hydro , when we lose the 2 hydro it should be impossible to correct the helicopter attitude very quick i think : you have to eject or land very quick before it happen

[Havner]

Well assuming that's all correct, I'd still consider it a bug if it's not possible to fly the KA-50 properly (by which I mean the Russian click-release method, I don't like using the click-hold method) with a non-FFB stick, which an awful lot of people have.

 

Hardware limitations, nothing you can do about that. I'd also wouldn't say that trimmer spamming is a proper way. It's a lazy way. And still the AP is fighting you, less then with frequent spamming, but it is.

 

I've suggested some methods that might fix this problem before, to enable non-FFB users to rapidly click-release without having to recenter the stick, such as having a button to hold which makes the sim ignore the stick, so after we've finished trimming and are in steady flight and want to be able to let go of the stick, we hold this button, release the stick to center and then release the button and the physical stick would be centered whilst the virtual one is trimmed where we left it.

 

This would be even more confusing for some, but I'll indulge you.

 

No idea whether you have a TM Warthog, but here you have. I've implemented the method you described. The only difference is that I use a separate button to let go of the stick (this way you can hold the trimmer if you prefer). Additionally it includes releasing the rudder from the trimmer using the way PeterP found. You need to turn Central Position Trimmer Mode, otherwise you'd have to wait 0.5s between spamming.

 

I gave it a shot (for the first time in my life I was able to spam click trimmer) and while it is possible to fly this way, I don't like it. Having the trimmer held is much more precise and intuitive as you don't fight the AP. If you have a TM let me know what you think, how comfortable is to fly this way for you.

 

 

// trimmer helpers
int trimmer_held;
int trimmer_centering;
int trimmer_try_centered( int ms )
{
   if( Joystick[ JOYX ] == 0 & Joystick[ JOYY ] == 0 )
   {
       TrimDXAxis( DX_X_AXIS, SET( 0 ) );
       TrimDXAxis( DX_Y_AXIS, SET( 0 ) );
       LockDXAxis( DX_X_AXIS, 0 );
       LockDXAxis( DX_Y_AXIS, 0 );

       flash_R2( 0 );
       trimmer_centering = 0;
   }
   else
       DeferCall( ms, &trimmer_try_centered, ms );
}
int trimmer_hold()
{
   if( trimmer_centering )
       return 0;

   if ( !trimmer_held ) {
       trimmer_held = 1;
       ActKey( KEYON+DX_Trimmer );
       GameOutput( &RMFD, OUT_ID_LED_2, 1 );
   }
}
int trimmer_release()
{
   if( trimmer_centering )
       return 0;

   if ( trimmer_held ) {
       ActKey( DX_Trimmer );
       GameOutput( &RMFD, OUT_ID_LED_2, 0 );

       TrimDXAxis( DX_X_AXIS, SET( - Axis[ DX_X_AXIS ].pos >> 5 ) );
       TrimDXAxis( DX_Y_AXIS, SET( - Axis[ DX_Y_AXIS ].pos >> 5 ) );

       ActKey(
           CHAIN(
               KEYON+D(),
               KEYON+PULSE+Rudder_left,
               KEYON+D(),
               KEYON+PULSE+Rudder_right
           )
       );

       trimmer_held = 0;
   }
}
int trimmer_recenter()
{
   if( trimmer_centering )
       return 0;

   int ms = 100;

   trimmer_centering = 1;
   flash_R2( 1, 200 );

   LockDXAxis( DX_X_AXIS, 1 );
   LockDXAxis( DX_Y_AXIS, 1 );

   DeferCall( ms, &trimmer_try_centered, ms );
}

 

 

MapKey( &Joystick, S3, EXEC( "trimmer_hold();" ) );
MapKeyR( &Joystick, S3, EXEC( "trimmer_release();" ) );
MapKey( &Joystick, S4, EXEC( "trimmer_recenter();" ) );

EDIT: It's not ideal cause the more often you spam the trimmer the more the virtual center gets away from the physical center forcing you to use the recenter() at some point (the sim seems to handle the trimmer shift in non-linear way), but still it works very well (assuming you want to spam click trimmer on non-FFB joy).

 

EDIT2: Track included as a proof that this works. This was made on non-FFB stick, TM Warthog and I was able to spam click trimmer.

 

Or after clicking trim, treat the current physical stick position as input 0, so that it doesn't add anything more if we don't centre it, then only recognise further movement away from the centre but ignore movement back towards it, as generally when trimming you're meant to bank/pitch a little and trim, then a bit more, trim, etc until you get to where you want it, so you'd do that then release the stick to centre.

 

Bad idea IMO.

 

Maybe they're not the best solutions and ED can come up with something better but I feel they could do something like this if they were interested in non-FFB users being able to fly the Shark.

 

Yes, there is one more, the one I use. I made the trimmer a toggle button.

You press (and release it) once, and the trimmer is locked in the pressed position. I maneuver, and when I'm in comfortable position I click the button (and release it) once more and the trimmer gets released and I recenter the stick. It's basically not different from holding it (in terms of simulator behaviour) but allows you to maneuver comfortably without the need to keep the button down. It also contains some additional stuff (like the unchain of the rudder).

 

 

// trimmer helpers
int trimmer_held;
int trimmer_centering;
int trimmer_try_centered( int ms )
{
   if( Joystick[ JOYX ] == 0 & Joystick[ JOYY ] == 0 )
   {
       LockDXAxis( DX_X_AXIS, 0 );
       LockDXAxis( DX_Y_AXIS, 0 );

       ActKey(
           CHAIN(
               KEYON+D(),
               KEYON+PULSE+Rudder_left,
               KEYON+D(),
               KEYON+PULSE+Rudder_right
           )
       );

       flash_R2( 0 );
       trimmer_centering = 0;
   }
   else
       DeferCall( ms, &trimmer_try_centered, ms );
}
int trimmer_hold()
{
   if ( !trimmer_held ) {
       trimmer_held = 1;
       ActKey( KEYON+DX_Trimmer );
       GameOutput( &RMFD, OUT_ID_LED_2, 1 );
   }
}
int trimmer_release()
{
   int ms = 100;

   if ( trimmer_held ) {
       trimmer_centering = 1;
       flash_R2( 1, 200 );

       LockDXAxis( DX_X_AXIS, 1 );
       LockDXAxis( DX_Y_AXIS, 1 );
       ActKey( DX_Trimmer );

       DeferCall( ms, &trimmer_try_centered, ms );
       trimmer_held = 0;
   }
}
int trimmer_toggle()
{
   if( trimmer_centering )
       return 0;

   if( trimmer_held )
       trimmer_release();
   else
       trimmer_hold();
}

 

 

MapKey( &Joystick, S3, EXEC( "trimmer_toggle();" ) );

spam-trimmer-non-ffb.trk

Edited May 28, 2014 by Havner

[Fri13]

I would prefer Black Shark 3 upgrade with a modernized KA-50, including night- and bad weather fighting capabilities.

 

Tekken

 

If BS3 will ever be released, it needs to be a updated variant instead just upgrade to 3D mesh modeling or compatibility to other DCS modules.

 

Of course I could gladly leave KA-50 as it is in BS2 if there would come KA-52 "Alligator" module with dual-seat functionality for co-op. I would buy two on day one as long the variant is one of the later variants.

 

I have left KA-50 flying to side since 1.2.7 as HUD and weapons systems changed a lot needing a different approach. And now when almost always failing to get Vikhr fly over 7km range is mystic to me in own missions what I use to fly before successfully...

 

But my main whine comes from A-A missiles and Vikhr functionality. Missing fragments from missiles meaning enemy helicopters can withstand couple direct Vikhr hits is just unacceptable to me.

[DAZnBLAST]

Putting the post back on topic. The KA50 has two main issues. 1) Shkval will fast slew to the right randomly (a known bug)! And 2) Locked target, Vikhr fired will miss and fly to ground, (same lock, same hover) second Vikhr fired will hit.

 

Both points above have happened to me in multiplayer 1.2.8 and point 2 above happens frequently in mission one of the oil campaign in 1.2.8.

[Havner]

KA50 Target Designator "a bad JOKE"

 

2) Locked target, Vikhr fired will miss and fly to ground, (same lock, same hover) second Vikhr fired will hit.

 

 

Not saying this is the same issue but it can happen when the laser is not designating the target for the whole vikhr flight. It should light for the estimated fly time of the missile + 6 seconds. Sometimes it's lit for 2 seconds in total and the missile flies to the ground (you can see the laser timer on the hud). Not sure though what is the reason for that. It didn't cool down enough?

 

I know I triggered it once by turning off AT and designating the laser by hand for 60 seconds (max allowed time). The laser didn't go back to normal operation afterwards and was able to light for max 2 seconds with vikhr.

[karambiatos]

also sometimes, in high wind or if you are sliding at a higher speed, the outward vikhrs will not catch the laser.

[ShuRugal]

And 2) Locked target, Vikhr fired will miss and fly to ground, (same lock, same hover) second Vikhr fired will hit.

 

This is probably user error. If there is any significant crosswind, then the missile fired from the downwind side, especially in a hover, will require significant corrective aim into the wind in order to intercept the beam. At the same time, the missile on the upwind side will require almost no correction to stabilize in the beam.

[NineLine]

1) Shkval will fast slew to the right randomly (a known bug)!

 

I need a short track of this issue to confirm if this related to an already reported issue or if its different.

 

 

2) Locked target, Vikhr fired will miss and fly to ground, (same lock, same hover) second Vikhr fired will hit.

 

 

Please supply a short track of the problem only so we can review to see if there is an issue.

[DAZnBLAST]

Hi SiThSpAwN

 

It only happened once to me on auto guide, where I targeted the left most Artillery vehicle, fast forward it to just past where I send my wingman a recon command. I then pick up the left arty and the first Vikhr I fire goes wayward, second hits.

 

PS a manual guide Vikhr goes wayward also trying to get the same Arty earlier in the track.

 

See what you think?

KA50VikhrTest.trk

[NineLine]

Is this for #1 or #2?

 

#1 someone else already sent me a test track, need one for #2.

[DAZnBLAST]

Apologies, this is for point 2.

[Flagrum]

Apologies, this is for point 2.

To me, it looks like the crosswind is responsible - as ShuRugal suggested in #157. Vikhrs fired from the left wing are blown out of the guidance cone by the crosswind from the right.

[NineLine]

To me, it looks like the crosswind is responsible - as ShuRugal suggested in #157. Vikhrs fired from the left wing are blown out of the guidance cone by the crosswind from the right.

 

Thanks for looking guys, I am still asking about #1, looks like #2 might be working as intended.

[DAZnBLAST]

So that's the reason for #2, the wind blows it off course? How come the second Vikhr hit, cos it came off the opposite wing?

[Flagrum]

So that's the reason for #2, the wind blows it off course? How come the second Vikhr hit, cos it came off the opposite wing?

Seems so. Fired from the left wing, the missile has to fly to the right to get into the center of the guidance laser cone (distance pylon - center of the helo). But the wind is coming from the right and thus the missile has to maneuver harder - or it just takes longer - to get into the center. And with a bit of bad luck, it never gets there at all.

 

Fired from the right side, it is the opposite thing. The missile needs to get to the left to reach the laser cone. And the wind is even supporting the missile in this case.

 

Probably it is possible to support the missile in this case a bit if you don't line up the Vikhr reticle perfectly with the Shkval but instead a tad bit off to the right or left - depending on the wind direction. But this is just a theory of me - I never really tested this deliberately.

 

edit:

a manual guide Vikhr goes wayward also trying to get the same Arty earlier in the track.

There is no such thing as "manual guidance". You can only override the launch authorization if you don't want the results of the laser range finder interfering with your launch decision. The laser guidance is not affected by this and is necessary - and automatically enabled - in any case.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Flagrum

[doveman]

Hardware limitations, nothing you can do about that. I'd also wouldn't say that trimmer spamming is a proper way. It's a lazy way. And still the AP is fighting you, less then with frequent spamming, but it is.

 

I'm just going by the dozens of posts by people who seem to know what they're talking about that repeated click-trimming is the proper Russian way to fly the KA-50.

 

Thanks for taking the time to make those scripts. Unfortunately I don't have a TM Warthog but it just goes to show that ED could implement something similar for all non-FFB sticks if they could be bothered.

[Havner]

KA50 Target Designator "a bad JOKE"

 

Hi Havner, do you have a script that will make the Warthog have a new "virtual center" when you trim?

I'm trying a hydraulic damper instead of a spring loaded warthog - so the warthog stick stays where you leave it (so technically don't need to trim, but still need to in the shark for the autopilot channels).

 

Thanks!

 

 

The exact scripts I posted above should do the trick. You don't have to recenter the stick after you trim with them.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Havner

[Dejjvid]

It's a pity ED decided to abandon the Ka-50. The Shkval is useless now, and have been for ages.

I can't recommend my friends to buy the Ka-50 because of this game breaking bug. One could expect the primary sensor of the helicopter would work, and not go crazy slaving around it self or the laser range finder to jump from 5km to 0.2km and when you fire the laser again, it reverts back to 0.2 again in a few seconds. I stopped counting all Vikhrs lost due to this bug, but it is hundreds and hundreds of missiles.

[LFCChameleon_Silk]

to minimize vikhr losses you should be applying rudder and firing deep into the left or right of the circle (more right if from left side pylon and more left if from the right side pylon) this along with solid hovering will minimize vikhr failures. the worst shots are firing at enemy that is slightly downhill which will sometimes give bad laser readings. I used to have the same issues as many are saying but then i learned what i was doing wrong and how to correct the situation. As far as im concerned it is not a bug with the simulation, vikhrs much like mavericks are not infallible.

[NineLine]

It's a pity ED decided to abandon the Ka-50.

 

 

ED hasnt abandoned the Ka-50.

[ShuRugal]

this along with solid hovering will minimize vikhr failures.

 

Even better than hover is a coordinated forward flight at 150-200 km/hr IAS.

[tsumikae]

Even better than hover is a coordinated forward flight at 150-200 km/hr IAS.

 

Quite. Not to mention the absolute badassery of going straight into the fray, spitting missiles along the way. What's not to love :D

 

(Note that a cautious scan of the area prior to that will ensure that you look badass until the end. As in, not cut in half by a canon)

[Rogue Trooper]

This thread really turned into a "How to trim" fest.

 

Ground stabilize is not what it was and does appear to drift even when the chopper is rock solid in the air.

 

I am seeing a lot of turn to target problems:

Either the mighty Kamov slowly turning past or away from or not even turning too the target (this was rare in the old days).

I generally have to apply pedal to offset the drift or just to get the chopper to turn to target. (I use trimless rudders, correct APs are on, Direction AP rock solid, no input from pedal, controller input window looks neutral. Drift direction varies).

Could this be from playing in an old mission?

Or some kind of Virtual trim point difference?

 

Is there a difference between "BS1 + BS2 upgrade" and "BS2 standalone"?

I never had problems with "BS1 + BS2 upgrade", I thought it was rock solid.

 

Due to laziness, during a complete computer re-install, I bought "BS2 standalone" and now I seem to see problems... It could be a coincidence.... I guess