Customized labels in MP?

[Iceman016021]

I've read a lot of threads & posts, and it seems many player thought that isn't realistic & perhaps it's some sort of cheating.

Therefore, many server disabled the labels.

 

I tried to convince myself that I don't need it.

However, that simply don't work for me, I do need it.

I don't have a high-end fancy graphic card or some kind of ultra high resolution monitor

neither I have a Track IR

 

so I found a pretty good solution,

I play singleplayer with modified labels on,

which all the labels are a black dot " ' ",

and that works perfectly!

for air & ground units

 

For all these, all I wanna say is

 

Plz, admins of servers, you can turn labels off by default, but let people put it on if they want to,

or maybe you can forced the labels always as a black dot.

If anyone have the same idea?

[104th_Maverick]

Plz, admins of servers, you can turn labels off by default, but let people put it on if they want to,

 

Sorry to disappoint sir ... but as you already pointed out... many of us look at Labels as cheating.

 

We (104th) certainly will never have Labels on in our server, like I said we see it as cheating.

Its not fair for you or other people to have Labels and not have others using them... you can see how this gives an unfair advantage.

 

I'm afraid the harsh reality is if you want to fly online in a realistic environment then you are going to have to get used to NOT having labels on.

 

You do not need TrackIR... I have flown for 4 years without it and I do pretty well!

 

You do NOT need labels sir... you NEED time in the cockpit practicing like everyone else.

 

However if your 100% sure the situation will not improve then I'm afraid you will have to consider upgrading your hardware sir, as very few Server Admins will take this request up... especially the ones running very popular servers with lots of experience pilots flying in it!

 

Good luck!

 

S!

[Falcon_S]

No "black dot" in RL - so, no on the servers too.

 

As Maverick said: PRACTICE.

[Frostie]

Labels take away the need to use your systems, simply unrealistic.

[Iceman016021]

;2116378']Sorry to disappoint sir ...

 

I don't care whether there's labels or not in A-A combat

there are so many other ways to guide you toward enemy

 

but visual contact is so important for A-G strike

 

I'm like flying blind

I have to guess where the enemy might be

so I fly low, hope they will shooting at me.

if they do shoot

every time I saw it, I've already passed it

or I get shot down even before I see it

 

and you talk about unfair advantage, if you have better hardware, isn't that some kind of advantage?

 

I once hoped that ED will come out with some sort of scaling option like Falcon.

I believe there are some people think that is necessary

Don't know if ED has received the message or not

 

Yeah, you're right practice & experience take huge part,

but this is so frustrating.(and it's killing my eyes)

You takeoff, searching the sign of enemies, and get shoot down

takeoff, searching the sign of enemies, get shoot down...I just run through this over & over again...

 

yeah, wish me good luck, need it a lot

 

No "black dot" in RL - so, no on the servers too.

 

As Maverick said: PRACTICE.

 

Actually, you do see a dot in real life.

Probably more than a dot.

 

Simulator is really do a bad job at simulating how we see things in real life

 

Well, still, thank you guys for reply

really appreciate it.

[Frostie]

Briefings are key, read them and be aware that in the designated zones there will be the enemy. It then becomes prudent to stay out of any air defences range that are briefed in this area until the area is cleared.

 

It's all part of the learning curve, learn about your enemy, learn where to find the enemy, learn how to id the enemy and learn how far to stay away from the enemy.

 

 

You don't say what you're flying. A-10A, Su25T, Ka50, A-10C etc. which one/s?

[Falcon_S]

..

Actually, you do see a dot in real life.

Probably more than a dot...

 

Yes, but not a little greater dot above the dot you're thinking.

[Isegrim]

@Iceman

The most important thing how to find Targets without labels. Is to Practice without labels.

 

Try to create a own mission using the editor for practice. So you can find the Targets more easy in the beginning.

Also your equipment (Headtracking/Joystick/Pedals) plays a role for flying and after that also for fighting.

 

ISE :)

[104th_Maverick]

Yeah, you're right practice & experience take huge part,

but this is so frustrating.(and it's killing my eyes)

You takeoff, searching the sign of enemies, and get shoot down

takeoff, searching the sign of enemies, get shoot down...I just run through this over & over again...

 

You should be using the senors on your aircraft to look for targets... not flying around looking for them with your eyes! This is total suicide and its no surprise at all that you are getting shot down on every sortie!

 

As Frostie mentioned you must read the mission briefing, then use your navigation waypoints to find the Target Area's. Once your within 15-20nm of the Target Area you start scanning with your sensors to locate targets.

 

You do NOT fly over a Target Area without checking for SAM threats first!

[Iceman016021]

Briefings are key...You don't say what you're flying. A-10A, Su25T, Ka50, A-10C etc. which one/s?

 

I usually fly A-10A, sometime A-10C

You know what I'm thinking?

I do know what to do in A-10C

A-10C is much much easier to spot and track targets than A-10A, with JTAC & TGP, I'm totally fine with A-10C

 

But sometime I just get lazy, wanna get rid of those buttons a bit

and A-10A is simply fun to fly with, close to the target, just like hand to hand combat

 

ED has lied to us, they said FC series provide an easy learning curve.

turns out FC series is the most difficult challenge you can ever take...

 

 

;2116526']You should be using the senors...

 

Well, there's no sensor on A-10A

 

 

uh....maybe I'm just lazy...:P

 

but I still want to fly A-10A!!

I've read a lot of threads about spotting target

Still don't have a clue...

[ShuRugal]

I find myself agreeing with Iceman on this one. It would be nice to see a server implement a labels.lua which was tweaked to provide a dot, dash, or whatever, at the range you would be able to begin to see the contact IRL.

 

My problem is with airborne targets, though. unless the target is smoking/contrailing, anything further away than about a kilometer is invisible at default zoom, and I run 1920x1080 resolution. Even if i know exactly where to look and zoom in fully, a target outside 2km is still less than a single pixel on my display.

 

I've been flying with labels off for years now (because that's the way it's done MP, not because of my own preferences) and I find the limiting factor not to be my own ability to find a target, but the ability of my hardware to display that target.

 

Labels are cheating because they make the other guy easier to spot? Okay, well, in that case, having a 30" 4k display is also cheating, because they make the other guy easier to spot. Should we have a server setting that forces everyone to run 1920x1080 in a window at the same size? Because that is the only other way to force everyone to the same level of target-detection ability.

[Ktulu2]

;2116378']Sorry to disappoint sir ... but as you already pointed out... many of us look at Labels as cheating.

 

We (104th) certainly will never have Labels on in our server, like I said we see it as cheating.

 

 

S!

 

I find it funny as there was labels for a while on the 104th at the begenning of the month (though im sure someone just forgot to remove them).

[104th_Maverick]

Well, there's no sensor on A-10A

 

Your Mavericks have cameras on them, this is a sensor ;)

 

I find it funny as there was labels for a while on the 104th at the begenning of the month (though im sure someone just forgot to remove them).

 

Yes this was not intentional, they were accidentally left on from testing the mission

 

Labels are cheating because they make the other guy easier to spot? Okay, well, in that case, having a 30" 4k display is also cheating, because they make the other guy easier to spot. Should we have a server setting that forces everyone to run 1920x1080 in a window at the same size? Because that is the only other way to force everyone to the same level of target-detection ability.

 

 

This logic isn't very..... logical!

 

You can t punish people for having a larger monitor and besides a large monitor gives you NO WAY near the amount of advantage that labels do!

Edited July 13, 2014 by [Maverick]

[slowhand]

It sounds like you could use a class in How to loiter on station and the Spotting of Targets.:thumbup:

[ShuRugal]

;2116629']

 

You can t punish people for having a larger monitor and besides a large monitor gives you NO WAY near the amount of advantage that labels do!

 

Labels on their default settings, yes. But if labels.lua is modified to only show a ' starting from 10km, that levels out the playing field between largescreen displays and the rest of us. I would go with a large screen myself, but i have neither the space nor the funds to devote to such a setup.

[karambiatos]

but labels wont stop desplaying when units are behind cover (buildings, trees, hill)

[McBlemmen]

All i can say is keep trying , i used to need labels aswell , then i too changed my labels to be *'s, and eventually i turned them off altogether , it just takes getting used to.

 

I do however feel that DCS should work on making targets more naturally visible , i dont know how realistic it is atm , but i recently started playing BMS in wich you can visually see planes and even ground units from miles away.

 

Ofcoarse maybe BMS is very unrealistic in that regard , i do not know. But i dont think so. Military pilots need good eyes , and we are limited by screen resolution , the combination of the 2 makes it a very unrealistic experience overall.

[Iceman016021]

Labels on their default settings, yes. But if...

 

Agree, not everyone have the $$ for gaming

By now, modified labels is our alternative solution...

 

;2116629']Your Mavericks have cameras on them' date=' this is a sensor ;)[/quote']

 

Use Maverick to finding target?!

I've heard that real pilots do that in real life, might give it a try.

 

All i can say is keep trying...I do however feel that DCS should work on making targets more naturally visible , i dont know how realistic it is atm , but i recently started playing BMS in wich you can visually see planes and even ground units from miles away.

 

Totally Agree!

I've been playing BMS before, but the setting & unfriendly UI just killing me,

but BMS do a good job on target visibility.

 

That really solves the the problem of the hardware limitation,

and we don't have to "Arms race" our hardware.

 

That is simply more realistic!

[Frostie]

Having labels makes it way too easy. The guys who have been doing this for a while certainly don't want easier they want harder. I'm sure finding a server with labels is an option but if you want to fly with the many then you have to play hardmode. Hardware limitation is a poor argument, it's like asking for game flight mode for those without a stick.

[ShuRugal]

but labels wont stop desplaying when units are behind cover (buildings, trees, hill)

 

sounds like good news to me, since the AI doesn't stop lobbing missiles at me when they are masked by buildings and trees.

 

Having labels makes it way too easy. The guys who have been doing this for a while certainly don't want easier they want harder. I'm sure finding a server with labels is an option but if you want to fly with the many then you have to play hardmode.

 

the default labels make it way too easy, sure. That's why we use a modified labels.lua which engages labels at a range and size which approximates real-world visual acquisition parameters.

 

Hardware limitation is a poor argument,

 

I don't have a hardware limitation, you have a hardware advantage.

 

it's like asking for game flight mode for those without a stick.

hardly, since game flight mode would give the same advantage to those with sticks as well, whereas what i am proposing merely evens the playing field. A properly implemented labels.lua would not change anything for players using large, ultra-high resolution displays, it would only bring players with more budget-minded and space-limited systems into the same range.

 

What i'm advocating here is not that servers should be enabling full labels, ever, that goes completely overboard making targets easier to find. What I am saying is that some research should be done to find out what the average range a target becomes visible (as in, large enough at default zoom level for the monitor to physically draw it) on various large-screen and ultra-res displays, and a new labels.lua should be drawn up which renders an appropriately-sized character (apostrophe, comma, period, dash, asterix, whatever) within that range.

 

This method does not provide a universal "easy factor" and it gives no particular advantages to anyone. Properly implemented, this should be damn nearly transparent to anyone using a hyper-display, while making it possible (though by no means easy) for players not so financially gifted to remain competitive.

Edited July 15, 2014 by ShuRugal

[Ktulu2]

How would your labels take in account different terrains? Im completeky against such a thing (I have 1 1080p monitor that has nothing special and a HD7770 GPU so im not in harware god). Labels would have to be paint sheme specific, and even be camo to be somewhat realistic. Otherwise, the mountain ambush all the Mig21 pilots are preparing will be impossible : a black label would OP in the snow mountains were a grey plane wouldnt be seen, Blue labels for su27s would be ridiculous anywhere. A black dot in the sea would be unobservable as where A F15 or a tomcat could be easily spotted. To me, Loosing time on implementing labels would be stupid and getting away from reallity. Maybe a decreased AA level on were planes are could be OK, but I'd just end up like what people are talking about on the oculous rift thread and some games that were «de-detailled» to make it nice for the rift.

(I read that again and I see that i have unconsiouly respected school text form, thats some great brain washing lol)

[ShuRugal]

How would your labels take in account different terrains? Im completeky against such a thing (I have 1 1080p monitor that has nothing special and a HD7770 GPU so im not in harware god). Labels would have to be paint sheme specific, and even be camo to be somewhat realistic. Otherwise, the mountain ambush all the Mig21 pilots are preparing will be impossible : a black label would OP in the snow mountains were a grey plane wouldnt be seen, Blue labels for su27s would be ridiculous anywhere. A black dot in the sea would be unobservable as where A F15 or a tomcat could be easily spotted. To me, Loosing time on implementing labels would be stupid and getting away from reallity. Maybe a decreased AA level on were planes are could be OK, but I'd just end up like what people are talking about on the oculous rift thread and some games that were «de-detailled» to make it nice for the rift.

(I read that again and I see that i have unconsiouly respected school text form, thats some great brain washing lol)

 

for my offline usage, I have found a medium-dark grey period or apostrophe to answer very well. When you're talking about a character that comprises only 2-3 piels, color makes much less of a difference than you might expect (I have used lime-green before, and still had difficulty picking it up). The bigger thing is that it draws something instead of nothing.

 

Another thing that helps keep it toned down is that labels don't get bigger when you zoom in; if you set up a 2px label, it's always going to be a 2px label.

 

But don't take my word for it. Give it a try. I slapped this together in about 5 minutes when I was practicing dogfights against the FW-190, because I got tired of not being able to see the prick when I was looking straight at him, but I also don't like how easy the default labels make finding things. Some fine tuning is probably in order, but I think anyone would agree that this hardly makes for instant (or even particularly easy) detection of enemy aircraft.

TinyLabels.zip

[Frostie]

 

 

I don't have a hardware limitation, you have a hardware advantage.

 

I certainly don't. I'm currently having to use a 21" screen at 1680x1050, hardly mid level. But yet I don't have an issue ground pounding or dogfighting without labels. I think the limitation is your practice.

[MacEwan]

No "black dot" in RL - so, no on the servers too.

 

As Maverick said: PRACTICE.

 

While I agree that labels are a bad idea for any multiplayer gameplay, the RL argument is not a good one. The human eye can see things far better than what we can see on a computer monitor.

[Rivvern]

Is it possible to force customized labels in the mission files?

 

 

Ive tried to copy the label file to the mission file but no luck.

Like this.

"\mission.miz\Config\View\Labels.lua"