Caging unreliable for bombing

[Scrim]

Shouldn't. I mean, that's why we're supposed to cage the sight before we can fly stable on the target.

 

Though I suppose that might be coming back to my original point in this thread, that caging doesn't work for bombing. I don't understand why the pipper wouldn't stop moving when you electronically cage the sight for bombing, when it stops in all other cases.

[dooom]

quoted for truth - i had this running with super consistency last night.

 

Bombing in the F-86 is done by diving - preferable at higher than 45° angle.

So it´s important to start from a rather high altitude.

Setup bomb modes

Mechanical uncage the sight

Before diving - press and hold the electrical cage button.

Throttle back and set speed brakes

Start the dive and with the electrical cage button pressed, place the pipper on the target.

When the pipper is placed on the target - release the electrical cage button.

Press and hold the weapon release button while still keep a steady dive with the pipper on the target.

The bomb will now be released. At dive angles around 45-50° release will occur somewhere around 5000-6000 ft.

Recover.

 

Try starting from 20.000 ft. This gives You ample of time to setup dive and aim.

 

FinnJ

[Dejjvid]

I can confirm that rolling in and diving on a target will result in a failed run. Nosing down will result in 100% success. My bet is we still have bugs with the "gyros" in the sight.

 

Tested 5 times, alternating between rolling in and pushing the nose down.

[fjacobsen]

I have now made serveral tries doing dive bombings as described with succes:

 

Here is an updated step by step description:

 

 

• Bombing in the F-86 is done by diving - preferable at higher than 45° angle.
  
• So it´s important to start from a rather high altitude f.ex 20.000 ft.
  
• For a 60° dive fly with an offset of 3.3 nm ( Cosinus(60) x 20.000 ft = 3.3 nm) either left or right from the target.
  
• Setup bomb modes.
  
• Mechanical uncage the sight.
  
• When the target is at You 3 or 9 o'clock - Throttle back, engage speedbrakes, press and hold the electrical cage button.
  
• Start to roll in and commence the dive and with the electrical cage button still pressed, place the pipper on the target.
  
• When the pipper is placed on the target and the red light starts to flicker, keep the pipper on the target for a couple of seconds, then release the electrical cage button.
  
• Press and hold the weapon release button while still keep a steady dive with the pipper on the target.
  
• The bomb will now be released.
  
• Recover.
  

 

FinnJ

Edited July 29, 2014 by fjacobsen

[Scrim]

Electrical caging is placebo right now. Even the brief manual we have now clearly states the electrical caging will make the pipper static, like in all other modes. But in bomb mode, it doesn't.

 

Caging in bomb mode is currently broken.

 

And as made clear by real manuals, the red light indicates nothing else than when a bomb has been released. In this case it will shine constantly. The red light flickering prior to a drop is nothing else than the radar detecting ground clutter, and irrelevant to a bomb drop.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Scrim

[xxJohnxx]

Electrical caging is placebo right now. Even the brief manual we have now clearly states the electrical caging will make the pipper static, like in all other modes. But in bomb mode, it doesn't.

 

It doesn't make it static, however an automatic bomb release only occures if you used the caging. As long as you hold down the cage button, the bomb won't automatically drop.

[Scrim]

It doesn't make it static, but it's supposed to. The word "fixed" is even in that part of the manual.

[Angel101]

I have problems with a loadout of 2 x bombs and 4 x rockets...

 

I don´t understand if I select bombs and do the procedure above for auto release, I shoot all rockets when I try to mantain the pickle button.

 

Any idea?

[Scrim]

You have to put the rocket switch in the middle position (the one under the red cover on the armament panel). For some reason it's set to fire when you do a hot start.

 

Top = 1 rocket

Middle = Safe

Down = Auto rockets

Edited July 29, 2014 by Scrim

[Angel101]

OMG! thanks a lot!

[PVIBert]

It doesn't make it static, however an automatic bomb release only occures if you used the caging. As long as you hold down the cage button, the bomb won't automatically drop.

I am very confused. There is no way I can get manual or auto mode works. The reticles will not disappears. Only occasionally (one out of ten) they work but I cannot figure out why. I set up and fly according to the indications in your video but nothing happens.

The electric caging is set on the throttle of my Thrustmaster Hotas Warthog.

I can only imagine that I am doing something wrong with the dive parameters (I tried them all with no luck) or that the caging/uncaging needs something else than pressing the button (by the way, the manuals says TAB but in reality it is not).

Any suggestions? Thanks.

[PVIBert]

Just let me add I tried by pressing the \ button on the keyboard instead of the button on the throttle but nothing changed. I ran 15 bomb runs in a row both auto and manual, from altitude 7000 to 15000 ft with roll ins and some without roll in (straight pull down) and dive angle 30 to 50°. Only once the reticle disappeared and the bombs fall and that was during a straight pass dive.

The pipper was always normally reasonably steady on the spot during the dive.

Very frustrating indeed! My options are over (the manual does not help much)!

[Holbeach]

Don't know whether this helps, but auto bombing with a roll in does work.

 

Nose in with neg G is not realistic in real life, so start with a roll in to get use to it. Caging is not working correctly, but you still have to hold it down and place the pipper over the target for about 1 sec. If you don't hold the dive steady on the target, it won't release. A shallow dive, 45 deg, is easier, but it will release at a lower altitude.

 

 

 

GL.

[PVIBert]

Nice video. I retried imitating as much as possible what you did. Only the dive speed could not be seen in your video but I tried to leave it as much constant as possible (around 250 to 300 kt) with no evail. Not a single release in 7 attempts!

The setup was: selector to bomb, 1st switch to auto, 2nd switch to left, gun-missile sel. to guns, radar mech,open, roll-in with elect.caging pressed than released when pipper on target, bomb release button kept pressed, pipper kept steady on target.

 

Someone else had the same problem but I dont know whether and how they solved it.

[Flagrum]

Nice video. I retried imitating as much as possible what you did. Only the dive speed could not be seen in your video but I tried to leave it as much constant as possible (around 250 to 300 kt) with no evail. Not a single release in 7 attempts!

The setup was: selector to bomb, 1st switch to auto, 2nd switch to left, gun-missile sel. to guns, radar mech,open, roll-in with elect.caging pressed than released when pipper on target, bomb release button kept pressed, pipper kept steady on target.

 

Someone else had the same problem but I dont know whether and how they solved it.

What was your altitude and/or slant range?

 

I experimented with it as well after watching the video. At first, I had similar problems like what you describe. But then I noticed a probably quite important point I missed before: I released the electr. caging button as soon as I had the pipper stable on the target ... but that was when the radar ranging was not yet active!

 

When I then waited until I got a range on the scale and only then released the electr. caging, I could successfully drop the bombs ... like 9/10 times. (not that I hit much, lol, but that is probably a different matter)

 

I don't know - in hindsight it seems rather obvious: without a proper range information, how should the system calculate anything?

[PVIBert]

Oh yeah. It does make sense.

I'll give a try and will report.

Thanks a lot.

[PVIBert]

No way.

Ranging dial goes up to 27 when I switch on the mech radar and there it stays. Sometimes during the dive it suddenly goes up to the upper limit and again there it stays. To me it should adjust according to target distance but il simply does not move. There maybe is something to switch on or off but where ?

[Calman]

Yea it's really hit and miss with the F-86 when it comes to ground attack, but with a lot of practice i have been able to do some successful rocket runs in it.

[Holbeach]

What was your altitude and/or slant range?

 

I experimented with it as well after watching the video. At first, I had similar problems like what you describe. But then I noticed a probably quite important point I missed before: I released the electr. caging button as soon as I had the pipper stable on the target ... but that was when the radar ranging was not yet active!

 

When I then waited until I got a range on the scale and only then released the electr. caging, I could successfully drop the bombs ... like 9/10 times. (not that I hit much, lol, but that is probably a different matter)

 

I don't know - in hindsight it seems rather obvious: without a proper range information, how should the system calculate anything?

 

 

Radar ranging is for guns only and has no influence on auto bombing. You can turn it off and the auto bomb will still work.

 

.

[Art-J]

^ Indeed. Ranging light on or off doesn't make much difference to me, ie. in half of the cases the damn bombs won't drop anyway, and even if they drop, sometimes they land almost with laser-weapons accuracy, while the rest lands anywhere BUT on the target :D.

 

I'm beginning to think keeping the pipper steady (I mean really, REALLY steady) on the target is crucial for good slant range unit calculations. I use unmodded TM Warthog, which, with its factory "stiction" issue, is probably good for driving nails but not for accurate aiming - for the love of God I cannot keep the pipper properly stuck on target when the plane is pitching up slowly in a dive. I'm doing my best and my aiming fluctuations seem reasonably small, but maybe they're just not small enough. Oh well, time to extend and re-grease the sucker at last.

 

Rockets are fun though. Set the pipper depression to ~30 mils and You can almost hit a barrel with'em.

[fjacobsen]

Radar ranging is for guns only and has no influence on auto bombing. You can turn it off and the auto bomb will still work.

 

.

 

Seemingly not so in the DCS Belsim F-86F....

 

As flagrum told, the electrical cage button must be held until radar ranging starts in the dive towards the target.

But not only that - the radar range must also be valid before releasing the electrical cage button.

From radar ranging starts and until a valid range is measured, it will take approximately 1 second.

 

My procedure:

 

• Fly level at 20.000
  
• Select "Bomb" on the "Rocket, Gun, Bomb" selector
  
• Select the number of boms to release (Left, Right; All)
  
• Select "Auto release"
  
• Manoeuvre so thet that target will be either left or right perpendular to You at a distance that will give a dive angle of 40-50°
  
• Mechanical uncage the A-4 sight
  
• Electrical cage the A-4 sight (Hold the cage button untill...)
  
• When the target is almost perpendular, roll into the target
  
• Place the pipper on the target
  
• Once radar ranging starts - wait until the range indicator settles, this will take appr. 1 sec (it will increase and then stop, but still jump up and down - disregard the jumping)
  
• Release the electrical cage button
  
• Press the weapons release button
  
• Keep the pipper on the target
  
• At some point the pipper will go off and on again and the bomb(s) are released.
  

EDIT ****

This worked 9/10 times in one session.

The next session (Sim start) it only worked a very few times.

********

 

FinnJ

Edited December 30, 2014 by fjacobsen

[Flagrum]

Radar ranging is for guns only and has no influence on auto bombing. You can turn it off and the auto bomb will still work.

 

.

Hrmph. But thanks for clarifying that.

 

Oh well, maybe if we had a manual where we could look up the correct procedure (perhaps even with a few neat diagrams?) ...

 

edit:

But could you explain the procedure you used in your video then, please? I am not too familar with the Sabre - as you can probably tell - but I could not recocknize any parameters you were establishing. You did not use the bombing altimeter, you rolled in from, iirc, more or less random altitudes and your dive angle was always less than 30 degrees. So, how on earth did not only manage to get the bomb off the rack in auto mode ... but also to hit each target dead center?

Edited December 30, 2014 by Flagrum

[fjacobsen]

I would really like an indepth description on Holbeach's procedures too, since I simply can´t find a reliable way of doing it !!

 

FinnJ

[Holbeach]

Here's another vid I did for an earlier thread on the same subject.

 

 

 

As you can see I missed the target because I didn't have a steady aim.

 

2nd shot was spot on.

 

In the dive, correct trimming is essential because the speed will increase and you will start pushing forward on the stick which will start a porpoising effect. I pre trim so that it becomes more neutral during the dive. If you don't fly to the correct pre computed parameters, the bomb won't come off.

 

The fact that the sight doesn't cage as it should, doesn't help, but it still works.

 

As I said before, radar range plays no part.

 

.

[f86enthusiast]

Seemingly not so in the DCS Belsim F-86F....

 

As flagrum told, the electrical cage button must be held until radar ranging starts in the dive towards the target.

But not only that - the radar range must also be valid before releasing the electrical cage button.

From radar ranging starts and until a valid range is measured, it will take approximately 1 second.

 

My procedure:

 

• Fly level at 20.000
  
• Select "Bomb" on the "Rocket, Gun, Bomb" selector
  
• Select the number of boms to release (Left, Right; All)
  
• Select "Auto release"
  
• Manoeuvre so thet that target will be either left or right perpendular to You at a distance that will give a dive angle of 40-50°
  
• Mechanical uncage the A-4 sight
  
• Electrical cage the A-4 sight (Hold the cage button untill...)
  
• When the target is almost perpendular, roll into the target
  
• Place the pipper on the target
  
• Once radar ranging starts - wait until the range indicator settles, this will take appr. 1 sec (it will increase and then stop, but still jump up and down - disregard the jumping)
  
• Release the electrical cage button
  
• Press the weapons release button
  
• Keep the pipper on the target
  
• At some point the pipper will go off and on again and the bomb(s) are released.
  

EDIT ****

This worked 9/10 times in one session.

The next session (Sim start) it only worked a very few times.

********

 

FinnJ

 

Your procedure works the only thing I do differently is press the release button before I release the elec. cage button and it works for me.