How to Takeoff in the Dora

[LeCuvier]

When I first got the 190 I had no problem with take off and landing. It was the 109 that gave me no end of trouble. Now how ever the 109 seem stable and the 190 is a fussy as the 109 used to be.

I am not sure what I am doing wrong but if I didn't change something then is there a setting in take off preparation that I have forgotten. I am old but I don't remember this problem until about two or three week ago.:cry:

 

 

An after thought.....I am using DCS World Beta. Is there any connection there?

The beta might be (indirectly) the reason. There is a setting for "Take-off assistance" under Options, tab "Special" sub-tab "F-190 D-9". When I set this value to either 0 or 100% I found the landing very difficult. With a value of 50% I'm doing fine. I'm guessing that maybe the value defaults to something other than 50% after installing the beta.

Good luck - Hals- und Beinbruch!

[canopancho]

Hello gentlemen, my code name is Canopancho, I have flown successfully the Microsoft Flight Simulator X for many years and thought I knew how to fly propeller driven and jet fighters ; but never encountered such level of flying difficulty as with DCS. I humbly request help with the following issues:

 

a) Always crash wit the BF190 Dora as soon as I lift off at 200 KPH after taxing straight down the runway. As soon as I bring the joystick to the middle while keeping the joystick held a little bit to the right to counter the left gyro effect of the propeller, the plane veers sharp left and crashes; this is not how it is shown on the YouTube videos.

 

b) I have sort of master taking off with the TF-51D, but as soon I am air born, the plane is always oscillating sideways and it is very unstable to keep it flying straight. Are there any adjustments I should do under the options menu to correct this? I am using a Logitech 3D joystick and I am flying with no auto rudder or takeoff assist; please advise?

 

C) Slow frame rate of the Messerschmitt's BF-109-K at speed less than 200 KPH; makes landings impossible. Also constant side oscillations while trying to fly straight.

 

Thanks for your help guys; sincerely,

 

Canopancho

[fastfreddie]

A. You should be bringing the stick to the middle around 130-150 kph while it is on the ground. It also sounds like your countering too much forcing it to stall which is the snap effect your describing. You should be using slight rudder on takeoff and don't change the flap position until you hit about 250 kph with some altitude. Rapid changes will kill you quicker than you believe so make small steady inputs until you get the hang of it.

 

B. Learn to trim the plane with the trim/rudder controls to keep the ball straight/centered. You can just trim the ailerons/elevator and use your rudder pedals to trim the plane. These are war birds not modern civilian props so keep that in mind.

 

C. Slow frame rate? Computer issue perhaps. Hopefully future DCS engine updates will help with that. German planes weren't trimmed the same way as the P-51 ... you have to fly at certain speed/altitude to achieve some level of trimmed flight but the K-4 always seems to want to climb no matter what which is historically correct I believe. They used trim tabs for most of their planes which fly "trimmed" at around 450kph.

[klem]

Hello gentlemen, my code name is Canopancho, I have flown successfully the Microsoft Flight Simulator X for many years and thought I knew how to fly propeller driven and jet fighters ; but never encountered such level of flying difficulty as with DCS. I humbly request help with the following issues:

 

a) Always crash wit the BF190 Dora as soon as I lift off at 200 KPH after taxing straight down the runway. As soon as I bring the joystick to the middle while keeping the joystick held a little bit to the right to counter the left gyro effect of the propeller, the plane veers sharp left and crashes; this is not how it is shown on the YouTube videos.

 

You may need a little right rudder. Don't lift off too early/slow and try to let it fly off by itself. Try not to lift off until around say 220 kph but the key thing is to stay right on top of it, expecting to make small but quick adjustments at the slightest sign of it going away from straight down the runway and especially at takeoff. It takes practice and your right, FSX flight modelling is quite benign.

b) I have sort of master taking off with the TF-51D, but as soon I am air born, the plane is always oscillating sideways and it is very unstable to keep it flying straight. Are there any adjustments I should do under the options menu to correct this? I am using a Logitech 3D joystick and I am flying with no auto rudder or takeoff assist; please advise?

Similar answer to the 190.

 

C) Slow frame rate of the Messerschmitt's BF-109-K at speed less than 200 KPH; makes landings impossible. Also constant side oscillations while trying to fly straight.

What are your system specs - you may have graphics settings too high for your hardware.

 

 

Thanks for your help guys; sincerely,

 

Canopancho

[LeCuvier]

Always crash at take-off...

 

Hello gentlemen, my code name is Canopancho, I have flown successfully the Microsoft Flight Simulator X for many years and thought I knew how to fly propeller driven and jet fighters ; but never encountered such level of flying difficulty as with DCS. I humbly request help with the following issues:

 

a) Always crash wit the BF190 Dora as soon as I lift off at 200 KPH after taxing straight down the runway. As soon as I bring the joystick to the middle while keeping the joystick held a little bit to the right to counter the left gyro effect of the propeller, the plane veers sharp left and crashes; this is not how it is shown on the YouTube videos.

 

b) I have sort of master taking off with the TF-51D, but as soon I am air born, the plane is always oscillating sideways and it is very unstable to keep it flying straight. Are there any adjustments I should do under the options menu to correct this? I am using a Logitech 3D joystick and I am flying with no auto rudder or takeoff assist; please advise?

 

C) Slow frame rate of the Messerschmitt's BF-109-K at speed less than 200 KPH; makes landings impossible. Also constant side oscillations while trying to fly straight.

 

Thanks for your help guys; sincerely,

 

Canopancho

Hi Canopancho,

I fully understand your frustration; it took me a long time to get the feel for the single-engine propeller aircraft after flying mostly A-10C, F-15C and SU-27. I'm afraid the DCS sim is just realistic. To really understand what kills you one would have to see a saved track of your take-off. From my own experience I suspect that you may be struggling with a combination of the single-propeller's torque effect and the take-off behavior of planes with traditional gear configuration (as opposed to modern tricycle gear). For the torque effect you simply have to acquire the feel through practice.

The FW-190 has one small tail-wheel (not a nose-wheel like tricycle gear configuration) and when on the ground the airplane has a significant angle of attack. This angle of attack makes the plane lift off by itself when you have sufficient speed. If you pull up during take-off, the plane tends to get too much upward pitch which makes it slow down. Now the ailerons lose their influence and the propeller torque makes the plane veer sharply left. The plane is now unstable and uncontrollable and you crash.

Let her lift off by herself and only pull up after you have sufficient speed and retracted gear and flaps.

To reduce the propeller torque you can do the takeoff with 3,000 RPM rather than the full-throttle 3,250 RPM. That worked for me when I was struggling with take-offs. Now I take off with full throttle and I just have to be a bit more concentrated.

Hals- und Beinbruch!

 

PS: I asked a flight instructor about the propeller torque problem and why I didn't experience it during my initiation flight (in a real aircraft), and he laughed: "the plane you are sitting in has about 150 HP. The FW-190 had a 1600 HP engine. That's why it has a strong propeller torque effect."

[[DBS]TH0R]

By far the biggest difference for me, when TO with Dora, is not to continuously manipulate the throttle. Do not slowly and continuously keep advancing it throughout the TO. Instead, advance it in stages. Continuous power increase produces increasingly difficult to control p-factor and yaw effects when the tail lifts. Especially if you are new to the plane.

 

Give it a burst to start rolling, then when you have it under control, advance it further and keep it there until the tail lifts. Directional control shouldn't be a problem. When the tail is up, give her the beans and lift off.

 

Gradually after you learn how she handles, you can slam it forward from the get go and TO without a problem every time.

[Little_D]

Hi gents,

 

after my own problems in the beginning to take off with the Fw190D-9. I start to make a little trainingsvideo for my wingman to show him how i bring the Fw190D-9 nice and soft in the air.

 

so have fun:

 

 

thank you for watching.

[arglmauf]

The biggest realization for me with the Dora TO was: Full throttle (as Erich said in his interview), right rudder in a soft manner and once you pass about 100 km/h, the tail will begin to lift and you have to release right rudder a bit but not completely. This was usually the point where I started snaking as the plane began turning right and letting off from the rudder too harshly made it swing to the left thus entering the vicious circle. Just really slowly take it back to keep it going straight until it lifts off by itself pretty much.

[Charley]

slight weather changes & take offs

 

I felt very proud of myself with being able to take off in the 190 (after a few practice crashes for warm up). But now, when I try in a mission that includes mild weather differences, take offs are disastrous pretty much all the time. I don't understand. I've tried to examine the weather differences that might influence my take off in different missions, & the only thing that I notice is a slight temperature change from my successful take off missions in perfect weather (20c perfect compared to 15c ). Even with the wind at all altitudes set to zero, I have extreme trouble. In perfect weather , I can hold the aircraft straight & lift off with the nose held down. Not with very slight weather changes though. Another person I fly with online who has success in good weather has also been unable to control the aircraft on take off with these very mild weather changes, so I wonder if it's probably not just me & him who would experience this. My question is, have others noticed this , & is some weather effect on the aircraft over modeled ?

[LeCuvier]

I felt very proud of myself with being able to take off in the 190 (after a few practice crashes for warm up). But now, when I try in a mission that includes mild weather differences, take offs are disastrous pretty much all the time. I don't understand. I've tried to examine the weather differences that might influence my take off in different missions, & the only thing that I notice is a slight temperature change from my successful take off missions in perfect weather (20c perfect compared to 15c ). Even with the wind at all altitudes set to zero, I have extreme trouble. In perfect weather , I can hold the aircraft straight & lift off with the nose held down. Not with very slight weather changes though. Another person I fly with online who has success in good weather has also been unable to control the aircraft on take off with these very mild weather changes, so I wonder if it's probably not just me & him who would experience this. My question is, have others noticed this , & is some weather effect on the aircraft over modeled ?

@Charley: I have done a little test with the "Takeoff" mission under "QuickStart". The original temperate setting was 23°C. I have changed the temperature first to 15°C, and then to 30°C.

With all 3 temperature values I experience the same takeoff behavior.

This behavior of course is influenced by several other parameters:

1. your take-off process

As a beginner I struggled terribly. Now I find it easy. Full throttle with MW50, release the brake with tail wheel locked and go with slight taps on the right wheel-brake to stay centered. At about 120 km/h I feel that the tail wants to go up so I let the stick go forward to neutral elevator and give very very slight right rudder (not require if auto-rudder is On). She will rise by herself and usually requires slight aileron right. No pulling up until the gear is up!

2. the parameters "Auto-Rudder" and "Takeoff Assistance" under Options/Special/FW-190.

I set Auto-Rudder = On and takeoff Assistance to 50%

If I change Takeoff Assistance to 0% then my take-offs are disastrous.

Unfortunately the flight manual does not tell us what exactly these two parameters do. Auto-Rudder makes the take-off a bit easier, and I find that it makes the landing a lot easier.

[Weegie]

I felt very proud of myself with being able to take off in the 190 (after a few practice crashes for warm up). But now, when I try in a mission that includes mild weather differences, take offs are disastrous pretty much all the time. I don't understand. I've tried to examine the weather differences that might influence my take off in different missions, & the only thing that I notice is a slight temperature change from my successful take off missions in perfect weather (20c perfect compared to 15c ). Even with the wind at all altitudes set to zero, I have extreme trouble. In perfect weather , I can hold the aircraft straight & lift off with the nose held down. Not with very slight weather changes though. Another person I fly with online who has success in good weather has also been unable to control the aircraft on take off with these very mild weather changes, so I wonder if it's probably not just me & him who would experience this. My question is, have others noticed this , & is some weather effect on the aircraft over modeled ?

 

 

YES!!! I play with some friends and in a couple of different missions no wind, sometimes I just cannot get the 190 off the deck at all. Usual wing down, wild swings etc: etc:

 

I'm not brilliant but I can usually get the Dora off in perfect conditions nearly every time and my landing success rate is getting better.

 

However sometimes it just seems impossible to control no matter what I do.

 

If anybody can shine a light on this conundrum I'd be interested too.

[Yo-Yo]

YES!!! I play with some friends and in a couple of different missions no wind, sometimes I just cannot get the 190 off the deck at all. Usual wing down, wild swings etc: etc:

 

I'm not brilliant but I can usually get the Dora off in perfect conditions nearly every time and my landing success rate is getting better.

 

However sometimes it just seems impossible to control no matter what I do.

 

If anybody can shine a light on this conundrum I'd be interested too.

 

THe rule No. 0: Always have enough engine power for rudder effectiveness, especially at low speed when the plane is directionally unstable. The more power, the more deviations can be corrected.

The rule No. 1: Never let the plane evade significantly from the straight line. Correct any tiny attempts to yaw.

The rule No. 2: Better to undercorrect than overcorrect. Use short impulses on the rudder, do not shy to reverse it as soon as the plane begins to yaw to the centerline too fast and not as it yaw opposite. Do not shy to repeat an impulse if the plane continues yawing.

The rule No. 3: Do not miss the speed to return the stick to the center. It's very useful to move it gradually as the speed builds to have it centered at 100-120 kph or even 10-15 kph less. Let the tail be unloaded gradually before it goes up.

The rule No. 4: Do not use ailerons if you have no crosswind.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Yo-Yo

[Weegie]

Thanks Yo-Yo, but I'm reasonably conversant with (nearly) all these things

 

In some of the multi-player scenarios with different weather but no wind it behaves entirely different, you notice it immediately. Sub 100 kliks no vicious sawing on rudder, very gentle, stick back and slightly to left about 2/3 as normal. In fact doing everything that would normally result in a good take off.

 

The aircraft will just wing over onto the left wing, almost like when TO & rudder assist are enabled (but are not). For no apparent reason it just becomes a complete animal to control. If I get by that phase, then the next surprise is the swings to left and right get progressively more violent, for no reason I'm not doing anything that would not normally get me off the deck.

 

Just weird that's why I jumped on Charley's post because I realized now I'm not the only one to experience it.

 

As if the Dora was not difficult enough when this occurs it takes it to a whole new dimension

[Yo-Yo]

Thanks Yo-Yo, but I'm reasonably conversant with (nearly) all these things

 

In some of the multi-player scenarios with different weather but no wind it behaves entirely different, you notice it immediately. Sub 100 kliks no vicious sawing on rudder, very gentle, stick back and slightly to left about 2/3 as normal. In fact doing everything that would normally result in a good take off.

 

The aircraft will just wing over onto the left wing, almost like when TO & rudder assist are enabled (but are not). For no apparent reason it just becomes a complete animal to control. If I get by that phase, then the next surprise is the swings to left and right get progressively more violent, for no reason I'm not doing anything that would not normally get me off the deck.

 

Just weird that's why I jumped on Charley's post because I realized now I'm not the only one to experience it.

 

As if the Dora was not difficult enough when this occurs it takes it to a whole new dimension

 

What does it mean "different weather"? Wind, turbulence?

 

If the airplane does wingover to the left wing it means that you stall it during liftoff. Check the stick position playing the track.

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

He probably means air density.

 

I don't know how it is taken into account in DCS, but it's evident that it varies between cold and hot air masses, as well as between Winter and Summer presets. Density altitude variation between seasons and T is evident when you compare the "height" in external view to your altimeter readings, for a constant QNH, so that in cold weather you'll be lower for the same barometric altitude reading.

 

BTW: Does DCS compute humidity, based for instance on T / Td, to better find the air density, or is it simply based on T ?

 

Probably in denser air he notices that the control surfaces come into live readily as power is added, and the aircraft is more controllable than under hot air conditions...

Edited September 23, 2015 by jcomm

[Yo-Yo]

He probably means air density.

 

I don't know how it is taken into account in DCS, but it's evident that it varies between cold and hot air masses, as well as between Winter and Summer presets. Density altitude variation between seasons and T is evident when you compare the "height" in external view to your altimeter readings, for a constant QNH, so that in cold weather you'll be lower for the same barometric altitude reading.

 

BTW: Does DCS compute humidity, based for instance on T / Td, to better find the air density, or is it simply based on T ?

 

Probably in denser air he notices that the control surfaces come into live readily as power is added, and the aircraft is more controllable than under hot air conditions...

 

I do not think that 213 engine gives significantly more power because of cylinder filling regulator logics, not MP... will try to feel the difference myself... though I just tried 109 at minus 15C. No difference exept fantastic climb rate...

[Weegie]

What does it mean "different weather"? Wind, turbulence?

 

If the airplane does wingover to the left wing it means that you stall it during liftoff. Check the stick position playing the track.

 

I'm not 100% sure the differences in that particular mission I was having trouble with. I've now been mailed the mission so I'll have a look and report back.

 

The info I had was wind was 0 m/s as I recall it was overcast so turbulence may have been an issue. Right now I'll don't know what density differences there were, if any.

 

Density is a tricky one parameter as it not only impacts flight dynamics but also engine performance too.

 

It may be nothing let me look at it a little more to see if I can figure out what was/is happening.

 

I appreciate all the assistance, but I need to do some figuring of my own first as I do not want to waste people's time with my little conundrum, but the assistance is very much appreciated.

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

I do not think that 213 engine gives significantly more power because of cylinder filling regulator logics, not MP... will try to feel the difference myself... though I just tried 109 at minus 15C. No difference exept fantastic climb rate...

 

Yes, I was mainly referring to the effects on dynamic pressure, not engine performance, an area which is too complex for me to interpret, specially with such fancy modeling details used in the DCS modules :-)

[Crumpp]

Thanks Yo-Yo, but I'm reasonably conversant with (nearly) all these things

 

In some of the multi-player scenarios with different weather but no wind it behaves entirely different, you notice it immediately. Sub 100 kliks no vicious sawing on rudder, very gentle, stick back and slightly to left about 2/3 as normal. In fact doing everything that would normally result in a good take off.

 

The aircraft will just wing over onto the left wing, almost like when TO & rudder assist are enabled (but are not). For no apparent reason it just becomes a complete animal to control. If I get by that phase, then the next surprise is the swings to left and right get progressively more violent, for no reason I'm not doing anything that would not normally get me off the deck.

 

Some advice offered in the hope it is useful. I have over 1000 hrs RL high performance tail dragged time in my logbook. I own one. The lack of feel is a real handicap on a computer sim when dealing with realistic tail dragger physics. I have botched both landings and take offs too. Each time it has been my fault, not the games. Usually because I do not reduce my control input as the aircraft accelerates and my control surfaces become effective.

 

I posted a track in this thread demonstrating 3 point take off in the Dora. A 3 point take off is edge of the envelope at rotation to initial climb in ground effect. Remember to relax the back pressure just after the airplane lift off and build speed in ground effect.

 

Gusting will change your rotation speed. If you do not increase speed for the gust factor, the wing can stall. Add half the gust speed difference to your rotation speed. If winds are 10kph gusting to 20kph then (20kph-10kph)/2 = 5kph. Add 5 kph to your rotation speed. Just keep in mind, gusty winds means you need to rotate at a faster airspeed than normal.

 

With no x-wind, reduce the amount of aileron input as the aircraft gathers speed. Rotate smoothly and slowly. I think over rotation is the root of many folks problems with the Dora.

 

With a X-wind, you still take out aileron input but will leave enough to bank the airplane into the wind just enough to maintain runway heading.

 

Remember, the moment the aircraft lifts off it can only fly at that AoA. If you increase that angle of attack thru rotation speed or having excess aileron input...the wing will stall.

 

Take offs and landing in a tail dragged is a dynamic process. As they say in RL, you fly a tail dragger from the tie downs to the tie downs. Welcome to the DCS community and please let us know how you are doing with your conundrum!!

Edited September 23, 2015 by Crumpp

[Weegie]

Many Thanks Crummp that is very much appreciated, I'll take all the advice I can get, especially from real pilots and not just my armchair efforts.

 

I'll try to run the mission now I have a copy and see if I can figure what is going on. Its probably something real stupid and will almost certainly be my fault.

 

Also interesting that there is not a significant change to the engine performance with ambient either. I don't have curves for the Jumo but I would have thought ambient would certainly make a difference. I used to be involved with Gas Turbine performance but I know reciprocating engines are not as sensitive but their output can vary by a significant amount with ambient at least with some engines.

 

jcomm are you referring to ambient changes affecting dynamic pressure and therefore lift characteristics over the wing?

 

Thank you all for your input

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

 

jcomm are you referring to ambient changes affecting dynamic pressure and therefore lift characteristics over the wing?

 

Thank you all for your input

 

Yes, that's what I meant :-)

[Crumpp]

Many Thanks Crummp that is very much appreciated, I'll take all the advice I can get, especially from real pilots and not just my armchair efforts.

 

I'll try to run the mission now I have a copy and see if I can figure what is going on. Its probably something real stupid and will almost certainly be my fault.

 

Also interesting that there is not a significant change to the engine performance with ambient either. I don't have curves for the Jumo but I would have thought ambient would certainly make a difference. I used to be involved with Gas Turbine performance but I know reciprocating engines are not as sensitive but their output can vary by a significant amount with ambient at least with some engines

 

You are most welcome!

 

Changes in engine performance are included in the performance calculations when changing density altitude.

 

Once performance under standard conditions is known it is easy to determine performance under any atmospheric condition.

 

It sounds like Yo-Yo got a good first impression of correct performance in the Bf-109k4 at -15C. Climb rate should and did increase under low density altitude conditions of winter.

 

What would the power be under those conditions? It is not hard to calculate. Simply figure the thrust available at a point thrust available = thrust required to meet the new performance and convert to power available.

[Crumpp]

You can also use the fixed relationship of power to density ratio. Probably a little easier to figure, lol.

[Charley]

Sorry it has taken quite awhile to respond after beginning this discussion about temperate effects. I have learned a lot from reading the great responses of everyone.

I must admit though, that I think all my trouble was the result of flying a mission that included some mild wind speed & turbulence . After reducing the airspeed & turbulence, I think I failed to click the "save" button that is present in the weather profile. When returning to the mission, I was also returning to the default settings with higher wind speed & turbulence without realizing it. I'm ashamed.

Now I realize one thing for sure . Taking off with wind & turbulence makes take offs in perfectly calm weather seem easy. Also, the advice about density altitude made me want to try different density altitudes. Being a Mission Editor virgin, I'm not sure how the default weather settings reflect different density altitudes though. As I understand , "density" in the weather profile refers only to the cloud density. Does anyone know how would I set different density altitudes under "dynamic weather" , and are different DAs already reflected in the "default" seasons?

Edited September 24, 2015 by Charley

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

Sorry it has taken quite awhile to respond after beginning this discussion about temperate effects. I have learned a lot from reading the great responses of everyone.

I must admit though, that I think all my trouble was the result of flying a mission that included some mild wind speed & turbulence . After reducing the airspeed & turbulence, I think I failed to click the "save" button that is present in the weather profile. When returning to the mission, I was also returning to the default settings with higher wind speed & turbulence without realizing it. I'm ashamed.

Now I realize one thing for sure . Taking off with wind & turbulence makes take offs in perfectly calm weather seem easy. Also, the advice about density altitude made me want to try different density altitudes. Being a Mission Editor virgin, I'm not sure how the default weather settings reflect different density altitudes though. As I understand , "density" in the weather profile refers only to the cloud density. Does anyone know how would I set different density altitudes under "dynamic weather" , and are different DAs already reflected in the "default" seasons?

 

But wind in DCS never varies direction ( randomly like IRL, although there is a veering effect as you approach the surface due to surface drag... ), and turbulence is so tame even at the higher settings, that I really don't think that was the factor ?

 

Regarding density, I don't think DCS models all of the "variables" that contribute to it IRL ( see here for one of the many sources you can Google for )... Namely I really don't think humidity is taken into account, at least we do not even have the chance to set T and Td, but temperature and pressure are used for sure, and you can play with your mission settings, setting a constant QFE / QNH and varying T, or the way around, or varying both.

 

With cold / denser air you'll be able to check, comparing your altimeter read with the info bar, that for a constant pressure value, you'll be lower than what the altimeter indicates compared to standard day or hotter situations. DCS models this correctly as far as I can tell.

 

The moist is not taken into consideration in any flight simulator that I know of, other than ELITE Training sim.

Edited September 25, 2015 by jcomm