Aerial Refueling

[chobbsUH60]

Hi everyone, lemme start off by apologizing ahead of time if this has either already been answered or if i am mistaken and it is irrelevant in the end anyway.

 

I seem to recall (cant remember who was the pilot), but i believe it was Robert Risner, watching a story about him and his wing-man returning from a dogfight. The problem was that his wing-man was hit in the wing and had been dumping fuel and was not gonna make it back to the original base, so he improvised and put his nose (Inlet) into his wing-man's exhaust port therefore nudging him and saving fuel, trying to make it to a nearby friendly air-base.

 

Now to the point, and the question of this thread:pilotfly:. I may be mistaken but when his wing-man punched out near the airfield and ended up landing in the water (later drowning from one of the chute chords wrapping around his neck) but anyways, I could have sworn i remember him saying that in order to make it back to the original base, he had to aerial refuel. What I'm asking; is there a way to do this in DCS? I haven't even mastered weapons yet so any answers would be appreciated. :)

[xxJohnxx]

No the, F-86F can not perform aerial refuelling.

[Zychon]

I remember that clip, but don't remember him mentioning any aerial refueling. It was done back then, but I don't think it was common. I'm nowhere near as versed in this as most here, though. It might be best to wait for one of the Grognards to answer. :D

 

As for DCS itself, yes. Planes equipped to receive fuel in flight can do so.

[Robin_Hood]

I heard that story also. Also heard that the USAF tried not to publicize the incident too much for fear pilots may try this too often? Although, in the end, the same happened during the Vietnam war, with an F-4 Phantom (not sure which model, C or D probably) pushing another in pretty much the same way.

 

That being said, as has been said, the F-86F is not capable of air refueling. Is any version of the Sabre equipped for that? Maybe a later model?

[chobbsUH60]

Zychon, thank you very much for the reply, and i understand (hence why I'm asking this lol).

 

And xxJohnxx, i watch the videos you post on here so thanks so much for the reply and help. And im not trying to question your knowledge here, the only thing i wanna confirm; are you saying that its not available in DCS or in real life because i definitely know that the crusader can which was right after the sabre. Like i said, just making sure John

[chobbsUH60]

I'm sorry Robin, I was writing that reply when you posted that so thanks for the response. And thank you for clearing that up and allowing me to learn something new because I never knew that about the air force trying to cover that up. But good to know, maybe you can answer one more question I have:

i know about the f-4 refueling in the air, did you read anything about that f-8 aerial refuel because i know that i read it, but i dont know if that was true or false.

[Zychon]

I heard that story also. Also heard that the USAF tried not to publicize the incident too much for fear pilots may try this too often? Although, in the end, the same happened during the Vietnam war, with an F-4 Phantom (not sure which model, C or D probably) pushing another in pretty much the same way.

 

That being said, as has been said, the F-86F is not capable of air refueling. Is any version of the Sabre equipped for that? Maybe a later model?

 

The F-86 doing this, I can imagine. An F-4 pushing an F-4 is much harder for me to imagine. :joystick:

[chobbsUH60]

Zychon, i definitely agree seeing as the elevator on an f-4 is right next to the area where the aircraft would be pushed. Which is the same for the sabre except that the elevator is forward of the "pushing point". Seeing as the process of "pushing" involves the wing-man pulling slightly back on the stick is counter-productive and, not to mention, gives the opportunity for the pushing pilot to damage the elevator

[lxvanwyk]

I believe the rear F-4 used the canopy windshield pushing onto the extended tailhook of the f-4 infront

[SkateZilla]

I heard that story also. Also heard that the USAF tried not to publicize the incident too much for fear pilots may try this too often? Although, in the end, the same happened during the Vietnam war, with an F-4 Phantom (not sure which model, C or D probably) pushing another in pretty much the same way.

 

That being said, as has been said, the F-86F is not capable of air refueling. Is any version of the Sabre equipped for that? Maybe a later model?

 

F-100

[El Hadji]

I'm pretty sure the F-86 could be refueled mid air... In attached pics you see a F-86A being refueled by a KB29. Not sure it was ever done in a operational environment though.

 

Here is the original caption of the first image:

 

In order to extend the range of the new generation of jet aircraft, a B-29 was fitted with a flying boom for experiments in air-to-air refueling. Here, a KB-29 delivers fuel to an F-86A Sabre over Rogers Dry Lake. Note that the fighter is flying nose-high in order to match its speed to the slower tanker; even so, it had to lower its landing gear for additional drag.

EDIT: found more of FU 172 with the modification of the nose clearly visible.

Edited August 18, 2014 by El Hadji

[SkateZilla]

Im not sure if that was experimental or common practice,

[joey45]

Could be experimental/testing.

[Wolf Rider]

experimental :book:

[El Hadji]

Yup. The testing in the pictures was done from Edwards AFB.

[Zychon]

I believe the rear F-4 used the canopy windshield pushing onto the extended tailhook of the f-4 infront

Insane. Steadier hand than mine!

 

In both of these examples it makes me wonder about heat resistance in the canopy. Obviously, in these cases we are dealing with little or no throttle. But it seems even the radiant heat off the cooling engine would be very intense. I guess up there at altitude things cool off pretty quick.

 

Awesome stuff, though.

[Zychon]

Wow, thanks El Hadji for the insight! I got as far as Wikipedia, but from there it seemed that it was largely experimental until the Vietnam era. At least for smaller A/C. Still I had no idea it was even attempted with WW1 area stuff ...with a freaking hose and a hand pump! Fascinating stuff.

 

Looking at the nose here has got me wondering: just where the hell is the radar in the Sabre? I know it's not some sophisticated phased array job (it's essentially a simple range finder), but it had to be very small, right?

[Robin_Hood]

I believe the rear F-4 used the canopy windshield pushing onto the extended tailhook of the f-4 infront

That is correct. And amazing! :joystick:

 

[Chief1942]

Although it was the navalized version of the F-86, the FJ-4B Fury did have the ability to refuel inflight. I know, I was an airframes mech on those birds and the probe was affixed mid-length under the left wing. Since the Navy/Marines usually had different requirements for their aircraft due to their operating environment ie from carriers and out over the ocean and such, I don't believe I ever saw an Air Force F-86 with the inflight refueling probe. The differences between the FJ-4B and F-86 wern't that noticable at a distance, but up close one could definately see all the Naval operation requirements that were added. The arresting gear and beefed up landing gear struts for just two.

[SgtPappy]

Wow, thanks El Hadji for the insight! I got as far as Wikipedia, but from there it seemed that it was largely experimental until the Vietnam era. At least for smaller A/C. Still I had no idea it was even attempted with WW1 area stuff ...with a freaking hose and a hand pump! Fascinating stuff.

 

Looking at the nose here has got me wondering: just where the hell is the radar in the Sabre? I know it's not some sophisticated phased array job (it's essentially a simple range finder), but it had to be very small, right?

 

The radar is certainly not a phased array type. That would be an array of antennas which can transmit slightly out of phase in order to create an overall wavefront of a different shape. This allows an electronically-steered beam. Modern AESA radars have modules that can both steer the beam and receive reflections.

 

I think it works as follows but not 100% sure: The APG-30 radar of the F-86 (shown below) is really the simplest you can get. There's a horn which shoots out a radar "beam" but it doesn't move or scan in azimuth or elevation, but only in range. The reflections bounce back and are received and the phase difference, time delay from echo and attenuation are compared to the transmitted beam to find range.

 

[Zychon]

Ah-hah! Yeah, it's a teeny little antenna. Makes sense for its limited purpose. I just didn't know where they were in reducing the weight and size of things this early in the game.

 

Thanks for doing the leg work. I don't know all of the specific gold mines of data on stuff like this, but the one certainty is that I fail at Google. Thanks again.

[PaprikaYT]

The name of the sabre pilot was james robinson risner and the f4 pilot was bob pardo also known as pardo's push both can be found on Wikipedia ;)