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Hyperthread or Not?


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Getting quite confused here ...

 

My PC runs on ASUS i7 Quad-Core OC to 4.5, and I would like to know should I run it on hyperthread or single core for DCS world?

 

Read somewhere that turning on hyperthread may actually bring down the clock speed of each core.

 

Advice please. Thanks.

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Hyperthreading doesn't need to be 'supported' by software, it's simply something that can increase efficiency in applications which use multiple threads.

 

There's no disadvantage to leaving it enabled as far as I'm aware. The reported max 50% CPU usage is misleading, the cores will be running at full capacity whenever necessary.

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You should unterstand what hyperthreading does, then it is obvious.

An i7 CPU has 4 separate cores. Each core is basically a single CPU of its own and used to compute a thread. A thread means basically a program running which needs calculations and uses a core. DCS currently uses two cores, one for the World/flight engine and render, one for the sound engine.

Now there are programs that need lots of small calculations done. An offline video rendering process for example can use all cores in parallel calculate a picture/frame in parallel and collect the results and organise them later (which unfortunately is no option for realtime game rendering).

Now an i7 handles 4 threads in parallel! ...but just uses about, as example, 20-40% of the possible CPU performance for each core.

That's where HyperThreading can emulate a second "virtual CPU" for each core.

Not a real one, and only for certain calculations, so programs need to support HT.

Effectively you have 8 cores available for a single program now.

 

Ok certainly missed a lot and I may have something wrong, but technically it explains what's going on.

 

Bottomline, DCS does not support HT. If you leave it on, it does no harm. If you use Video editing or Audio production software, or Math heavy calculations programs like MatLab it's likely giving you a performance boost.

...and as I found out: the difference between an i5 and an i7 is basically the i7 supports HT and has a little more cache RAM... so when building a rig optimized for gaming, especially DCS, it might be an i5 as well!


Edited by shagrat

Shagrat

 

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......

...and as I found out: the difference between an i5 and an i7 is basically the i7 supports HT and has a little more cache RAM... so when building a rig optimized for gaming, especially DCS, it might be an i5 as well!

 

 

There is a little more to the difference apart from HT capability, PCI-Express lane amount for example.

 

There are even stepping between i7's on how much Lanes they carry. The less lanes the less overall max performance you can achieve in SLI/CF and/or PCI-Express based SSD's.

 

 

Bit

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Hyperthreading doesn't need to be 'supported' by software, it's simply something that can increase efficiency in applications which use multiple threads.

 

There's no disadvantage to leaving it enabled as far as I'm aware. The reported max 50% CPU usage is misleading, the cores will be running at full capacity whenever necessary.

 

You're sorta contradicting yourself. Games have to be made with hyper-threading in mind for it to make a significant difference.

It doesn't happen by accident.

 

so when building a rig optimized for gaming, especially DCS, it might be an i5 as well!

 

Indeed, there's absolutely no significant difference between i5s and i7s in video gaming and I'm quite certain the i7s only exist so idiots can buy them thinking they're stronger because they sound stronger, serious.

Only a handful of games ever show any marginal significant improvement with an i7.


Edited by Archer7
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You should unterstand what hyperthreading does, then it is obvious.

An i7 CPU has 4 separate cores. Each core is basically a single CPU of its own and used to compute a thread. A thread means basically a program running which needs calculations and uses a core. DCS currently uses two cores, one for the World/flight engine and render, one for the sound engine.

Now there are programs that need lots of small calculations done. An offline video rendering process for example can use all cores in parallel calculate a picture/frame in parallel and collect the results and organise them later (which unfortunately is no option for realtime game rendering).

Now an i7 handles 4 threads in parallel! ...but just uses about, as example, 20-40% of the possible CPU performance for each core.

That's where HyperThreading can emulate a second "virtual CPU" for each core.

Not a real one, and only for certain calculations, so programs need to support HT.

Effectively you have 8 cores available for a single program now.

 

Ok certainly missed a lot and I may have something wrong, but technically it explains what's going on.

 

Bottomline, DCS does not support HT. If you leave it on, it does no harm. If you use Video editing or Audio production software, or Math heavy calculations programs like MatLab it's likely giving you a performance boost.

...and as I found out: the difference between an i5 and an i7 is basically the i7 supports HT and has a little more cache RAM... so when building a rig optimized for gaming, especially DCS, it might be an i5 as well!

 

Threads having NOTHING to do with cores. Just because you spawn a thread does not mean it uses a core to execute on it.

 

Take it from a software developer. You can have as many cores as you want (or just one core), this doesn't determine the number of threads you can use.

 

Number of cores assists in efficient processing (as does HT). The software needs to be aware of the number of possible logical and physical processors and this is usually determined at compile time, or in the case of a interpreted language (such as .NET) the MSIL compiler will dynamically assign tasks over cores.

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You're sorta contradicting yourself. Games have to be made with hyper-threading in mind for it to make a significant difference.

It doesn't happen by accident.

 

 

 

Indeed, there's absolutely no significant difference between i5s and i7s in video gaming and I'm quite certain the i7s only exist so idiots can buy them thinking they're stronger because they sound stronger, serious.

Only a handful of games ever show any marginal significant improvement with an i7.

 

 

 

If you just run 1 video card on non-super-high-res it is a very small difference, the more you scale upwards the more clearly you can see what additional PCI-Express aka DataSuperHighways between your Northbridge and the GPU can achieve.

 

Add a Adaptec 20-Port Raid card with 20 drives and you have no chance without an i7 and its FAR superior Northbridge implementation if you also have 2 or 4 GPU's in your rig...or 1 or 2 PCI-E based SSD's.... you quickly come to a limit with 24 lanes only, or even 20 on some i5's. A full scale 48 lane i7 is a different game.

 

Also, if you do lots of video and music stuff, LoL there is HUGE gap between an inferior i5 and the i7 ( there are many i7's with different sockets, don't think they are all the same, they aren't ! )

 

 

Using VMware on a i5 is somewhat a limited workspace, only 4 cores to share...

 

 

It just aint that easy: i7 is for snobs etc...

 

Bit


Edited by BitMaster

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In a nutshell for the OP...

 

For the purposes of DCS, leave hyperthreading enabled and forget about it.. (DCS does not use it so no harm no foul, and when you DO happen to run a different multi core app such as video editing you will see great benefits using hyperthreading.)

 

Basically leave it be and forget about it..

"Pride is a poor substitute for intelligence."

RAMBO

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You're sorta contradicting yourself. Games have to be made with hyper-threading in mind for it to make a significant difference.

It doesn't happen by accident.

Not quite. Games have to be written to take advantage of multithreading. Whether the cores are real or virtual is irrelevant, all that is taken care of by the OS.

 

Fairly certain that's the case, although I don't have any problem being corrected.


Edited by Brun

Asus Z690 Hero | 12900K | 32GB G.Skill 6000 | 3080FE | Reverb G2 | VPC MongoosT-50CM2 + TM Grips  | Warthog Throttle | MFG Crosswind Pedals

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An AMD 8-core setup would probably be the best way to go for a cost effective VM setup.

 

If you just run 1 video card on non-super-high-res it is a very small difference, the more you scale upwards the more clearly you can see what additional PCI-Express aka DataSuperHighways between your Northbridge and the GPU can achieve.

 

Add a Adaptec 20-Port Raid card with 20 drives and you have no chance without an i7 and its FAR superior Northbridge implementation if you also have 2 or 4 GPU's in your rig...or 1 or 2 PCI-E based SSD's.... you quickly come to a limit with 24 lanes only, or even 20 on some i5's. A full scale 48 lane i7 is a different game.

 

Also, if you do lots of video and music stuff, LoL there is HUGE gap between an inferior i5 and the i7 ( there are many i7's with different sockets, don't think they are all the same, they aren't ! )

 

 

Using VMware on a i5 is somewhat a limited workspace, only 4 cores to share...

 

 

It just aint that easy: i7 is for snobs etc...

 

Bit

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There is a little more to the difference apart from HT capability, PCI-Express lane amount for example.

 

There are even stepping between i7's on how much Lanes they carry. The less lanes the less overall max performance you can achieve in SLI/CF and/or PCI-Express based SSD's.

 

 

Bit

Sure, but from a gaming rig for DCS the actual difference in performance is marginally an argument to spend $100 more!

 

No more, no less.

 

I said explicitly that there is a place for HT and the additional goodies, but the current DCS engine seems not to have any major benefit from them.

Compare the fps from i5 to a similar classed i7 you get a 10% boost at the absolute maximum... so 65 rather than 58 frames, or 27 fps vs. 25 fps, most of the time it is far less.

 

And, yes, I know a thread does not require its own core, and I have other "errors" in that post. That was the reason I said so at the end :smartass:

If somebody can explain the difference between a task, a thread etc. without scientific detail and easy to understand, please feel free to do so.

Just because you are a programmer does not mean you can explain and teach it...

I still hope people can understand why HT is not something you need for most games today.

Even modern CAD programs suffer from engines of the 90ies and dont support HT or even more than one core for model processing.

So fact is: if you want a benefit from HT, check the software can use it.


Edited by shagrat

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 32GB | GeForce RTX 2080S - Acer XB280HK 28" 4k | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VIRPIL CM 50 Stick & Throttle | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | TM Cougar MFDs | a hand made UFC | AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore)

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Indeed, there's absolutely no significant difference between i5s and i7s in video gaming and I'm quite certain the i7s only exist so idiots can buy them thinking they're stronger because they sound stronger, serious.

Only a handful of games ever show any marginal significant improvement with an i7.

Careful, that is only true for games, and I would stress, current games.

 

An i7 has its rightful place. As I said Audio production and Video cut application usually benefit from the features it has. It is a matter of what the software Is programmed to do. If it can only adress one core it will have the chance to run multiple threads on one CPU core, but another 3 cores are not used.

If you happen o run multiple applications in parallel it is beneficial to have multi core CPUs...

And so on.

 

That is one of the reasons a PC is so versatile, but also difficult to optimise. You can't optimise for everything at maximum performance. An i7 and its architecture is but another option in the large range of hardware available and can be combined to form high performance system for a dedicated use case. ...just it may be ovrrdressed for gaming. :D


Edited by shagrat

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 32GB | GeForce RTX 2080S - Acer XB280HK 28" 4k | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VIRPIL CM 50 Stick & Throttle | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | TM Cougar MFDs | a hand made UFC | AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore)

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Huh? You don't need a core dedicated to a VM. I mean you can, if you want bad performance.

Depends on what the VM should do. To provide a virtual CAD workspace it is vital to fix a specific core to a VM, otherwise the hypervisor searches for an available core all the time degrading the performance by a significant margin, while the K1or K2 GRID GPUs are at 1/3rd of there performance waiting for the CPU...

But that's now fairly of topic! :D

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 32GB | GeForce RTX 2080S - Acer XB280HK 28" 4k | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VIRPIL CM 50 Stick & Throttle | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | TM Cougar MFDs | a hand made UFC | AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore)

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If you just run 1 video card on non-super-high-res it is a very small difference, the more you scale upwards the more clearly you can see what additional PCI-Express aka DataSuperHighways between your Northbridge and the GPU can achieve.

 

Add a Adaptec 20-Port Raid card with 20 drives and you have no chance without an i7 and its FAR superior Northbridge implementation if you also have 2 or 4 GPU's in your rig...or 1 or 2 PCI-E based SSD's.... you quickly come to a limit with 24 lanes only, or even 20 on some i5's. A full scale 48 lane i7 is a different game.

 

And your benchmarks are... where?

I'm more down to Earth.

 

Careful, that is only true for games, and I would stress, current games.

 

You stress "current" games... indeed certain individuals have been waiting for hyperthreading to benefit gaming since always.

Again, I'm down to Earth.

 

I wouldn’t tell someone to spend money on something unless I thought they would actually need it because hey, I care about strangers' money.

 

In actuality you’re not getting your money’s worth for stronger (>770 or other generation equivalent) graphics cards and not really getting anything for i7s, water-cooling or more than 8GB memory, in gaming.

I can usually cut several £100s off someone’s computer without compromising strength.


Edited by Archer7
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And your benchmarks are... where?

I'm more down to Earth.

 

 

 

You stress "current" games... indeed certain individuals have been waiting for hyperthreading to benefit gaming since always.

Again, I'm down to Earth.

 

I wouldn’t tell someone to spend money on something unless I thought they would actually need it because hey, I care about strangers' money.

 

In actuality you’re not getting your money’s worth for stronger (>770 or other generation equivalent) graphics cards and not really getting anything for i7s, water-cooling or more than 8GB memory, in gaming.

I can usually cut several £100s off someone’s computer without compromising strength.

 

 

Archer7,

 

you don't seem to need advice on HT and it's benefits in computing.

 

So why then do you ask if you turn down all the benefits mentioned about HT and i7 ( or i3 ).

 

Regarding benefits, yes, I don't run such a SLI machine right now myself but I do built them and more than 1 of my pals and customers has SLI or CF right now, at the moment, gaming BF4 or WoT or whatever and I am the guy who usually has to fix them if their damn Wot or BF4 stops working, I have done this almost 20 years, 10 years professionally, including servers running AMD Opterons, Xeons, VMware and HyperV... since VMware 4.0.... that is long ago.

 

..and I didn't say "cheap VM solutions"...if, then I mean best performance per Watt..and that means Xeon or 2011-v3 i7.

 

 

our answers weren't bad but looking at the wider scope of why there is HT or SMP and wider busses in general. You may not have to shuffle 2TB form 1 logic-drive to another in a time window, but I do and I know the difference in throughput from a limited bus or one that is FREE and just waiting to shuffle data without blocking any other data flowing through the system, even it is only a fax being received that really doesn't need any IRQ hick up or it drops...

 

Bit

Gigabyte Aorus X570S Master - Ryzen 5900X - Gskill 64GB 3200/CL14@3600/CL14 - Asus 1080ti EK-waterblock - 3x 980Pro 1TB - 1x Samsung 870 Evo 1TB - 1x SanDisc 120GB SSD - Heatkiller IV - MoRa3-360LT@9x120mm Noctua F12 - Corsair AXi-1200 - TiR5-Pro - Warthog Hotas - Saitek Combat Pedals - Asus PG278Q 27" QHD Gsync 144Hz - Win11 Pro/Linux - Phanteks Evolv-X 

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If you don't do lots of video and audio sampling, no vmware, don't use Mozilla or Chrome with 10+ tabs open and Word and Excel also, just play games, some occasional Video and Audio works for your cell phone or car stereo an i5 is sufficient but if you can shell out the extra money an i7 will reward you with more overall power. The more load you put on the system the more you feel the cores. The trend since many years is MORE CORES and not MORE MHz.

 

If you play fairly modern games and usually hop on every new trend, then an i7 is more for you in matters of being future proof and swiss army knife.

 

DCS with EDGE will most likely not benefit from it UNLESS you have side programs running to DCS like multi display managers, recording software, audio tracks etc... thats when more cores, IRQs, Express Lanes come into play.

 

I would rather keep the old case and invest in an i7 or get the SSD 1 month later and keep this or that a bit longer but wouldn't sacrifice the graphics card for it if money is real tight. A 3.5 GHz i5 can rock a lot in DCS, rather an i5 and 980GTX than a i7 and a 970GTX or 780 GTX-Ti. That may give you a clue of what matters for DCS, pure brutal CYCLES in 2 cores and max GFX what you can afford. A SSD should be in the budget too, sooner or later. If you never had an SSD before, you will never wanna be without again PROMISED :)

 

Bit

Gigabyte Aorus X570S Master - Ryzen 5900X - Gskill 64GB 3200/CL14@3600/CL14 - Asus 1080ti EK-waterblock - 3x 980Pro 1TB - 1x Samsung 870 Evo 1TB - 1x SanDisc 120GB SSD - Heatkiller IV - MoRa3-360LT@9x120mm Noctua F12 - Corsair AXi-1200 - TiR5-Pro - Warthog Hotas - Saitek Combat Pedals - Asus PG278Q 27" QHD Gsync 144Hz - Win11 Pro/Linux - Phanteks Evolv-X 

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