SU25 LASER GUIDE PROBLEM

[Volator]

This is still an issue, there's no way to fine-tune the aiming once the laser is stabilized ("target locked"). The cross wanders of in erratic ways when you try to move the target designator.

[BTTW-DratsaB]

I have been flying the su25a recently and this is quite problematic. Not only does the cursor behave incorrectly when ground stabilized (as in the above video), it also seems to un-stabilize temporarily while you are trying to move the cursor.

[Rider1]

04-27-2017, 08:33 PM

Weta43

ED Testers Team:

It was a bug. It's fixed in internal builds, so that should roll through soon.

7 months is not soon. If it is fixed, just roll it out already.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Rider1

[Weta43]

I will go back and chase it up.

[Lixma 06]

Thanks Weta.

[Fri13]

Hopefully gets fixed to 2.5 as Su-25A is "unusable" for guided weapons delivery because this.

 

The gyro drift is totally understandable as you fly off-heading of the LOS when stabilization was enabled, so crosshair will "drift" slightly to one direction, as it is stabilizated to the laser range or "infinity", so you need to do small adjustments depending your speed off course the LOS.

 

But when you can't even slave the head to wanted direction once stabilization is enabled, it is just easier to disable stabilization and fly plane back to original point and then try to get a new lock.

 

(After this gets fixed, need to start waiting Su-25T to get its automatic targeting system turning On and slaveling to general area of programmed target area or last manual locked ground position like harrier DMT :D)

 

Su-25A is so amazing CAS aircraft that so long has been waited to get this simple thing fixed.

Btw, good video about the direction problems and how "you are not stable enough" at ground :D

[Weta43]

I wrote something then thought about the NDA.

Let's say a fix should arrive soon :-)

Edited January 19, 2018 by Weta43

[Lixma 06]

See now all the riffraff will be having a go.

 

Any news on the CCRP or cockpit frame?

[Weta43]

CCRP - same comment as the laser stabilisation bug :-)

Re the cockpit frame - it is in as a bug, but it appears to me to be the external model intruding into the cockpit model, so that’s not an easy fix.

Edited January 21, 2018 by Weta43

[VZ_342]

SU-25 has the same “bug” for me....adjusting the lased and stabilized pipper is not at all reliable.

 

I didn’t notice if I was maneuvering beyond a near-straight line, I’ll check tomorrow.

 

All that being said, I have the “lock” button slaved to a button on the throttle handle. Using zoom view, I gently adjust the aircraft’s pitch and yaw and when it’s directly on the target I lock it. If it’s close I unlock it and repeat the process.

 

I generally use about 1/3rd the distance from “first sighting” to lock-on...if I have to unlock and lock again, I generally lose the next 1/3rd distance...at which point I either switch to guns or abort.

 

The SU-25A + laser can be a very effective platform, just adjust your technique to work around the problems. (If the pipper doesn’t move correctly, don’t use that adjustment) Let the “mechanics (ED) work on it after you land.

[jeffdude]

I wrote something then thought about the NDA.

Let's say a fix should arrive soon :-)

 

Awesome, I don't know if you can control this, but could you place a note in the "patch notes" when this one is fixed. It would make many folks pretty happy I would imagine. Cheers!

[pepin1234]

At the beginning I though is a bug but look like is real life behavior. Seem the Su-25A have laser stabilizator only in ground lock mode. When you move to correct laser you are unlocking while you keep moving reticle.

 

I know is harder now but is possible if you keep the same flight trajectory. Try set throttle in idle, Joystick without variations and you rock for sure. Just training.

[VZ_342]

Ok, flew it again.

 

Fly the SU-25 level, with pipper on boresight (which is just above the center of sight glass when glass is fully depressed). In this condition, the locked pipper can be adjusted without problem.

 

Any roll attitude or if the pipper is near the edges of the sight glass (bottom, top, left, right) and the aiming controls will make the pipper move erratically.

 

I got 4 out of 6 S25L hits, the two misses were entirely my impatience. BTW, I started my approach at 6 km (at ~500 km/h go about 35 seconds out from target turn 200° = 6 km). At that distance, I could not see the American AA armor (AA7?) but fairly quickly (at ~5km) I could see them, but not clearly enough to get a killing lock...by 4 km I could see enough to tell if I was locked under or over, left or right. I could fire, but if I thought it needed adjusting I couldn't adjust the aim point the first couple times (had a roll going on), and had to unlock and could re-acquire at about 2 km.

 

The last three times I flew level and boresighted, and got 1-2-3 kills.

 

It can be done!

 

:joystick:

 

:thumbup:

[Lixma 06]

Still goosed in 2.5

[Fri13]

Sad, this should have been fixed by now.... :/

[Weta43]

Just to make sure - you do realise that when working correctly, the designator is not stabilised when being moved & the rate of slew is quite low, so if you're changing direction & try to move the locked designator, it will move where your nose is going.

 

The test is to try it while stationary on the ground. Arm the weapons and turn the laser on. Try slewing.

Now stabilise (lock) the piper, and try to slew. If it's fixed the cursor will move up/down/left/right evenly. if not it will move more easily in some directions than others (can't remember which at work).

[Lixma 06]

OK, my bad - it's working better than it did (e.g. slewing on the ground is fine) but it's still a nightmare during flight. I was expecting the fix to result in something similar to the 25T laser's behaviour but if this is how it's meant to be then that's OK.

[pepin1234]

Will be great add the thread tittle ( SOLVED )

[tarball]

It seems DCS 2.5.2.18736.400 may have fixed this?

 

can anyone confirm?

 

DCS World

 

Kh-25 and Kh-29 will follow the laser beam target point of the Su-25/25T optical station when player to shift the target point after launch.

[Sideslip]

It seems DCS 2.5.2.18736.400 may have fixed this?

 

can anyone confirm?

 

 

That was a different problem. If you fired that missile and then tried to re-adjust the laser position, the missile would impact nowhere near the laser, normally a few km behind.

 

 

As mentioned above, it seems that the real SU-25's laser is not ground stabilized when moving. Because it slews very slowly when locked, it basically moves with the nose of the aircraft.

[Weta43]

I was expecting the fix to result in something similar to the 25T laser's behaviour but if this is how it's meant to be then that's OK

 

No, different beasts.

It's just gyro stabilised while locked, so fly steadily while trying to move it while locked or it will move with your nose.

[Talvid]

On 5/6/2015 at 12:54 PM, kontiuka said:

What I find works for me is maneuvering the aircraft ever so slightly before adjusting the cross-hair. So, if I want to move the cross-hair up a bit, I pull the nose of the plane up a bit and then slew the cross-hair up a bit. If I want to move the cross-hair to the left a bit, I yaw the nose of the plane left a bit and then slew the cross-hair left a bit. I find the slew is more cooperative if I use this sequence. Otherwise, it goes where it wants.

This is exactly what I do to make fine adjustments to the ground-stabilized reticle.  It will move in the direction you want it to as long as the frogfoot's flight path is in that same direction.  Now this seems like a bug to me.  I've noticed that the slew for the TV/IR camera on the SA342 Gazelle does the same thing.  I know that's  Polychop-Simulations deal they need to work out.  But if they can solve this issue for the Su-25 modules, perhaps they can solve it for the Gazelle too.

[BTTW-DratsaB]

From what I can see this is still broken.  When the laser is on and the aiming pipper is ground stabilized, the aiming pipper moves erratically when you try to slew it.

I test this on while stationary on the ground:

With the Laser turned on (and not ground stabilized), the aiming pipper moves with the controls as you would expect; up, down, left, right, no problems.

However, with the Laser turned on and Ground Stabilization turned on, the aiming pipper now moves erratically when you try to slew it.  When you press the key to slew in the direction you want, it moves ok, but when you release the key the aiming pipper "jumps" either left or right a small (or not so small) amount.  From my testing it seems the longer you hold the direction input the less the aiming pipper jumps when you release the control.  If you move it in short key inputs (tapping it) it is very erratic.  In both cases it makes aiming the pipper very difficult.

This hard to observe when you are flying due to the other adjustments that have been made to this system to increase it's realism (ie needing to keep the jet level while adjusting the aiming pipper and being Ground Stabilized).  (https://forum.dcs.world/topic/111856-su25-laser-guide-problem/page/2/#comment-2533036)

I think people are just putting up with this, not realizing that it is still broken, believing that their bank angle etc, while on an attack run, is making it behave erratically.  Test it on the ground and it is pretty clear it is still broken and making employment of laser guided munitions on the SU25a way harder than it should be.

I am running the latest stable version of DCS.

Edited November 9, 2022 by BTTW-DratsaB
wording

[AeriaGloria]

On 11/8/2022 at 9:23 PM, BTTW-DratsaB said:

From what I can see this is still broken.  When the laser is on and the aiming pipper is ground stabilized, the aiming pipper moves erratically when you try to slew it.

I test this on while stationary on the ground:

With the Laser turned on (and not ground stabilized), the aiming pipper moves with the controls as you would expect; up, down, left, right, no problems.

However, with the Laser turned on and Ground Stabilization turned on, the aiming pipper now moves erratically when you try to slew it.  When you press the key to slew in the direction you want, it moves ok, but when you release the key the aiming pipper "jumps" either left or right a small (or not so small) amount.  From my testing it seems the longer you hold the direction input the less the aiming pipper jumps when you release the control.  If you move it in short key inputs (tapping it) it is very erratic.  In both cases it makes aiming the pipper very difficult.

This hard to observe when you are flying due to the other adjustments that have been made to this system to increase it's realism (ie needing to keep the jet level while adjusting the aiming pipper and being Ground Stabilized).  (https://forum.dcs.world/topic/111856-su25-laser-guide-problem/page/2/#comment-2533036)

I think people are just putting up with this, not realizing that it is still broken, believing that their bank angle etc, while on an attack run, is making it behave erratically.  Test it on the ground and it is pretty clear it is still broken and making employment of laser guided munitions on the SU25a way harder than it should be.

I am running the latest stable version of DCS.

 

Always thought it was realistic of gyro limits. The gyro stabilization in ground stabilize is compensating for air craft movement, so if you yaw left the ground stabilized pipper will move faster with left input. If aircraft stays completely still, pipper works completely symmetrically for me. 

[BTTW-DratsaB]

I have done more testing on this and have discovered the following:

(Important: all of this is tested on the ground, not flying!) (Also, this bug is when you are in ground stabilized mode ("Locked"), The Pipper works fine when not ground stabilized)

The (ground stabilized) Pipper works ok, as long as you keep the Aiming Pipper near the very top of the ASP-17 Glass (Glass is in it highest position (default))

I have attached a screen shot to show what I am talking about.

Once you start to move the (ground stabilized) Aiming Pipper lower down the glass, the more inaccurate your movement inputs are. E.G: you give a movement input and as soon as you release the input, the Aiming Pipper "jumps" an amount, either left or right of where you wanted it to stop.  And this becomes worse the lower you move the Pipper.

I am sure that this is not how it's supposed to function?  It also explains why some users don't have a problem.

On 12/22/2017 at 5:19 AM, Weta43 said:

I will go back and chase it up.

Can a dev or bug reporter/ beta tester look at this again please?

I have attached a test mission if any one wants to see what I am talking about/ give this a test.

 

Su25a_Aiming_Pipper_Bug_Test.miz

Edited November 11, 2022 by BTTW-DratsaB