Any way to make the russian missles work/track?

[x39crazy]

Hello all!

Ive been flying dcs for a while, primarily the 51 and Dora but the -27 was just to beautiful to miss so I bought fc3.

 

Ive used the new training videos that came with the PFM Su-27 and understand when and how to lock/launch a rocket. Ive got that down pat.

 

Only issue is that the missles never want to track all the way to the target. The only missle I have any real success with is the R73. I just ran the same training mission 10 times SU-27 with 4x27Er and 2x27ET vs F-4E with Sparrows and Sidewinders. In only one of those missions did the 27ET connect with the target, and in no case did the 27ER. The other nine kills were with guns. Not exactly an accomplishment to down an F4 with a 27 in a gunfight.

 

So the easiest explanation is that I'm doing something wrong. All I know to do with the 27ER is lock the target, launch, and keep the target locked until impact. Is there something else I can do to increase my chances of connecting with the target?

Furthermore are these really so easily thrown off by countermeasures?

 

Thanks all!

[BIGNEWY]

attach a track of your mission here and we will take a look.

 

ps. welcome to the forum

Edited November 21, 2014 by BIGNEWY

[x39crazy]

Will do.

[kontiuka]

Good question. I launched 6 at a Mig-21 the other day and they all missed.

[x39crazy]

Disregard! It helps to save the track at mission close I guess.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/cyl99h1xhbrid78/ERnoworkie.trk

Edited November 21, 2014 by x39crazy

[Ironhand]

They record automatically but do not save automatically. When you exit the mission you will see something to the effect of EXIT, VIEW TRACK, and REFLY. Above that line you'll see a smaller SAVE TRACK button. Click the button, name the track, select the folder you want to put it in, and save it.

 

 

Rich

[x39crazy]

They record automatically but do not save automatically. When you exit the mission you will see something to the effect of EXIT, VIEW TRACK, and REFLY. Above that line you'll see a smaller SAVE TRACK button. Click the button, name the track, select the folder you want to put it in, and save it.

 

 

Rich

Ya I figured that out, big face palm moment

:doh:

Regardless there is a mediafire link to the track.

Thanks again guys.

[BIGNEWY]

Looking at the track you are firing the ER's to early, when they are at maximum range the target has more time to evade them.

 

As a tip I recommend watching this video by Ironhand, it will help you understand the process even more.

 

 

the video is from an earlier version but the message still applies.

 

Track file of my attempt below

Edited November 21, 2014 by BIGNEWY

[Esac_mirmidon]

The ER eat chaffs for breakfast almost at point blank.

 

At ridiculous range ( 10 Km or less )

 

I will add a track ASAP.

[x39crazy]

So the most effective moral is the r73 then? If the ER can't engage beyond 5 miles they aren't worth the weight to haul then around!

[BIGNEWY]

So the most effective moral is the r73 then? If the ER can't engage beyond 5 miles they aren't worth the weight to haul then around!

 

No you just need to learn a little more on how and when to deploy them.

 

take a look at my track

[Ironhand]

So the most effective moral is the r73 then? If the ER can't engage beyond 5 miles they aren't worth the weight to haul then around!

:) Not really. The first thing to understand is that the kinematic range of the missile is far removed from the "kill" range against a maneuvering target. The trick is not to launch too early. I usually carry R-27ERs, R-27s, and R-73s. The -ERs, if nothing else, give your adversary something to worry about and forces him to maneuver. Once the range closes, the -27s do a good job. The -73s aren't bad, either.

 

Rich

[x39crazy]

I will happily, however it seems that range cant be the sole issue to me.

 

I launched 4ER. 2 between the first and second post of the launch que on on the hud, and two between the second and third, trying to get a good spread of ranges.

 

ER1=30 miles

ER2=21 miles

ER3=17 miles

ER4=15 miles

 

For a rocket that is supposed to have a range of 35 miles? This seems unacceptable!

 

Then launched 2 ET

 

ET1=8 miles

ET2=2 miles

 

Again, this one should have a 35 mile range according to the in game encyclopedia. I understand however that these can be aspect dependent but an F4 with full afterburner should be pretty easy no?

 

Regardless I am home now so I'm going to watch the videos posted, will get back when Im done!

 

EDIT: Ok watched Big's video and it seems far too simple to say that you have to be withing 10 miles to achieve a kill with the R27, but it seems to be the case.

Is there in fact no ordinance on the SU-27 capable of defeating fighters beyond 10 miles?

 

EDIT 2: Tried again to get a hit at 10 miles or less, no dice. Are russian missiles just easily deceived by countermeasures?

Edited November 21, 2014 by x39crazy

[TAW_Blaze]

There is you just have to understand a few concepts:

 

1) effective missile range is not a one parameter equation. Relative energy and aspect matter the most, there are other things to consider. For instance faulty launch positions will reduce range to an even further extent (if not make any intercept fully impossible).

 

2) target most likely will maneuver after the launch. If you launch outside Rtr and the guy immediately turns around you have no chance of hitting. Sometimes even inside that doing the same thing will easily result in a kinematic defeat due to a number of reasons.

 

3) they can miss due to guidance, chaff/flares combined with the proper flying will quite efficiently evade any missile. Also inside certain ranges there's almost no hope for hitting the target as you're inside or close to Rmin. For instance a 2nm ET shot against anything but a straight running bandit will most likely miss.

 

4) lag can completely waste your missiles online. Nothing you can do about that.

 

5) missiles seem to have worse kinematics than they should. Maybe we'll see them improve at some point. They also have a lot of guidance issues. But I would suggest to forget the "this missile has this amount of range because wikipedia and other **** said so" attitude. It doesn't help you and it's going to ruin the fun.

[x39crazy]

There is you just have to understand a few concepts:

 

1) effective missile range is not a one parameter equation. Relative energy and aspect matter the most, there are other things to consider. For instance faulty launch positions will reduce range to an even further extent (if not make any intercept fully impossible).

 

Of course.

 

2) target most likely will maneuver after the launch. If you launch outside Rtr and the guy immediately turns around you have no chance of hitting. Sometimes even inside that doing the same thing will easily result in a kinematic defeat due to a number of reasons.

 

Understood, thats what the second post/mark on the launch que is for right? Range at which the missile will under any circumstances have the range to hit the target?

 

3) they can miss due to guidance, chaff/flares combined with the proper flying will quite efficiently evade any missile. Also inside certain ranges there's almost no hope for hitting the target as you're inside or close to Rmin. For instance a 2nm ET shot against anything but a straight running bandit will most likely miss.

 

Ya my shots that close were just to try to cover all ranges possible. I never had any expectation that a 2 mile shot would do anything but lose some weight off my airframe.

4) lag can completely waste your missiles online. Nothing you can do about that.

 

No worries there, Im an offliner :pilotfly:

 

5) missiles seem to have worse kinematics than they should. Maybe we'll see them improve at some point. They also have a lot of guidance issues...

 

That sure seems to be the case, that they are very easily defeated and unreliable.

Are the American missiles as bad?

 

...But I would suggest to forget the "this missile has this amount of range because wikipedia and other **** said so" attitude. It doesn't help you and it's going to ruin the fun.

 

I don't expect them to perform as they say on paper, but I do expect a missile to impact a target at visual ranges, and when it doesn't I get confused.

Should I just plan on no missiles making contact?

Im going to go play with the mig and r77 for a while.

[x39crazy]

Ok still playing around, but the R77 seem to have a MUCH higher kill rate.

I noticed though that when I fired one 77, and then I fired a second several seconds later, the first seemed to go off the rails as soon as the second was launched.

Do these radars support multiple missiles toward the same target, or am I cutting my guidance to each missile when I fire a new one?

[TAW_Blaze]

Understood, thats what the second post/mark on the launch que is for right? Range at which the missile will under any circumstances have the range to hit the target?

 

The line in the middle or so yes that's the Rtr. But as I said that doesn't mean jack in DCS atm.

 

That sure seems to be the case, that they are very easily defeated and unreliable.

Are the American missiles as bad?

 

Every missile suffers from similar problems. AMRAAM and R-77 have some unique problems attached to them that is related to the model of their seeker. On the other hand ERs seem to be more susceptible to chaff (I personally never had such problem though). It's somewhat balanced and enjoyable most of the time. I say that because when bull**** happens multiple times in a row it can get quite annoying.

 

I don't expect them to perform as they say on paper, but I do expect a missile to impact a target at visual ranges, and when it doesn't I get confused.

 

I'm not sure what you mean with WVR launches but if you're shooting ETs/ERs/AMRAAMs around 2nm you shouldn't expect a hit unless the guy is past beam aspect or just flat out running. Even then you need a perfectly lined up shoot cue. Use the R-73s in the merge, you always have a few anyway.

 

Should I just plan on no missiles making contact?

 

No, that's nonsense. Just learn what's a reasonable expectation of the missile based on experience. ER/ET is stronger than you think.

 

Do these radars support multiple missiles toward the same target, or am I cutting my guidance to each missile when I fire a new one?

 

If you keep the lock they do.

Edited November 21, 2014 by <Blaze>

[karambiatos]

Personally I never expect a R-27ER/R to hit anything ever, and its always a pleasant surprise when it does.

[Ironhand]

Ok still playing around, but the R77 seem to have a MUCH higher kill rate.

I noticed though that when I fired one 77, and then I fired a second several seconds later, the first seemed to go off the rails as soon as the second was launched.

Do these radars support multiple missiles toward the same target, or am I cutting my guidance to each missile when I fire a new one?

You have to support the first missile until it's onboard radar is close enough to paint the target. Otherwise it goes dumb.

 

While there are a number of issues with DCS's missiles, against the AI, I can usually score a kill with the 2nd or 3rd missile.

[Weta43]

Downloaded BIGNEWY's track & had a go myself.

 

First attempt took 3 R-27ER missiles (of which the first was just to try to make them go defensive), but 2nd attempt launched first R-27ER at 34km - again to push the AI F4 defensive - and a second at 20km, which killed him.

 

Realise it's not so helpful without a track, but I used my testing version, which has an issue with tracks at the moment. R-27ER will hit things though...

 

 

Edit:

Had another go, launched at 35.5 & 19.6 km, with the second launch scoring a kill.

This track MAY play through - but like I said above, there are some issues, so it may not :)

BNT.trk

Edited November 22, 2014 by Weta43

[Ironhand]

R-27ER vs Aircraft

 

Here's a zip file with 4 tracks: R-27ER vs the World. The R-27ER vs an F-15, F-16, and F/A-18. I believe I armed both the F-16 and F-18 with AIM-7s as their longest stick, since that was the scenario in your original post.

 

If these play back correctly, you will see the 2nd R-27ER making the kill in 3 out of 4 tracks. In the one that it takes a 3rd, I purposely put myself into a more severe look-down situation. I know the common wisdom is to gain an altitude advantage to give your sticks the range advantage but, with the Flanker's radar at least, you make it more difficult to maintain a good lock against the ground clutter. That's what's happening in the 1st F/A-18 fight.

 

Pay close attention to that target circle on the HUD. When it's flashing, it means you have a very tenuous hold that lock. The likelihood is that whatever missile you had in the air is probably going to miss. It also means that launching another at that moment will be a waste. If the lock isn't completely broken, wait for it to turn solid before launching again.

 

Hope these help. Against the AI, it should seldom take more than 3 missiles. I launch the 1st at whatever range I believe necessary to force my adversary to maneuver. The 2nd is the one I launch for effect.

 

 

EDIT: BTW, to those more familiar with this: What are those F-16 & -18 drivers doing launching so far out of parameters? Has anyone tested this? It feels like a bug.

 

 

EDIT 2: For what it's worth...

...

I launched 4ER. 2 between the first and second post of the launch que on on the hud, and two between the second and third, trying to get a good spread of ranges.

 

ER1=30 miles

ER2=21 miles

ER3=17 miles

ER4=15 miles

 

For a rocket that is supposed to have a range of 35 miles? This seems unacceptable!

...

I'm looking at this and wondering how you could have put 4 missiles into the air at those ranges and given the first 2, especially, the time to reach your target. Maybe I'm off base but, with the closure rates involved, something doesn't seem right.

 

Rich

Edited November 22, 2014 by Ironhand

[Weta43]

'R-27ER vs the world' :)

[TAW_Blaze]

EDIT: BTW, to those more familiar with this: What are those F-16 & -18 drivers doing launching so far out of parameters? Has anyone tested this? It feels like a bug.

 

More often than not every AI will launch at Rmax and then never bother to follow up until their first missile hit the ground. This is particularly why training anything but your own weapon systems is useless against AI..

[Ironhand]

More often than not every AI will launch at Rmax and then never bother to follow up until their first missile hit the ground. This is particularly why training anything but your own weapon systems is useless against AI..

No. This is different. They weren't launching their AIM-7s at Rmax. They were launching at well before Rmax--almost Rmax x 2 or 3. Their missiles were in the air well before I was anywhere near my own -27ER's Rmax. And we were nose on at co-altitude. The launches were so far out of parameters that I didn't even worry about them. They were going to fly past their missiles on their way to me.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Ironhand

[mvsgas]

I will happily, however it seems that range cant be the sole issue to me.

 

I launched 4ER. 2 between the first and second post of the launch que on on the hud, and two between the second and third, trying to get a good spread of ranges.

 

ER1=30 miles

ER2=21 miles

ER3=17 miles

ER4=15 miles

 

For a rocket that is supposed to have a range of 35 miles? This seems unacceptable!

 

Then launched 2 ET

 

ET1=8 miles

ET2=2 miles

 

Again, this one should have a 35 mile range according to the in game encyclopedia. I understand however that these can be aspect dependent but an F4 with full afterburner should be pretty easy no?

 

Regardless I am home now so I'm going to watch the videos posted, will get back when Im done!

 

EDIT: Ok watched Big's video and it seems far too simple to say that you have to be withing 10 miles to achieve a kill with the R27, but it seems to be the case.

Is there in fact no ordinance on the SU-27 capable of defeating fighters beyond 10 miles?

 

EDIT 2: Tried again to get a hit at 10 miles or less, no dice. Are russian missiles just easily deceived by countermeasures?

If you search the forums, you will find dozens upon dozens of threads about missiles ( most of them is GGTharos arguing with people, LOL) Instead of searching the word missile, search post by GG. Easier to find the threads that way.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/search.php?searchid=7854565

Edited November 22, 2014 by mvsgas