R-27 ET "Anomalies"

[Ironhand]

I used my own test vs a Mig-29A head on at 6000m.

 

In his trk there are no labels or even enemy units on the F10 view to get distance information. How did you get the distance?

Ahh. OK.

 

I turned enemy units on with LOTU(???). Not sure that's the one. Might be another one of the acronym utilities I use for viewing tracks with important settings toggled off.

 

Rich

[Alfa]

Except the T/TE versions do -not- in fact use datalinks ... I think JJ provided pretty conclusive proof.

 

I dont know if it can be regarded as conclusive proof George, but based on discussions with people I would consider "in the know" when it comes to the WCS of the MiG-29, I have come to the conclusion that IR guided weapons do require seeker lock prior to launch.....if for no other reason because the WCS doesnt provide the option of launching them without.

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[GGTharos]

I hear ya ... we need a flanker pilot here to help us out :) Unless you already spoke with one ...

 

I think the 'terminal mode only' of the seeker is the only culprit if you consider the mechanization of the R-27 (or what I know of it anyway). Meaning the seeker will -always- send steering signals to the guidance unit, thus making any data you 'download' to it null and void.

[Shepski]

I dont know if it can be regarded as conclusive proof George, but based on discussions with people I would consider "in the know" when it comes to the WCS of the MiG-29, I have come to the conclusion that IR guided weapons do require seeker lock prior to launch.....if for no other reason because the WCS doesnt provide the option of launching them without.

 

Would this also apply to the Su-27 too?

[Shepski]

Ahh. OK.

 

I turned enemy units on with LOTU(???). Not sure that's the one. Might be another one of the acronym utilities I use for viewing tracks with important settings toggled off.

 

Ah... I believe your numbers and in the track the first missile heads downhill towards the first pair of Eagles then abrubtly levels off and then shortly thereafter starts maneuvering for the trailing higher Eagle. I can't duplicate the missile maneuvering any farther then 7 km against an F-15.

 

I wonder what his missile slider was set at... Pilotasso?? I always am set at default BTW.

[Ironhand]

...I can't duplicate the missile maneuvering any farther then 7 km against an F-15...

Hmmm. 7nm would be about 13km which would be close to what I'm seeing. Sure you're using the right scale? :D

 

Rich

[Alfa]

Would this also apply to the Su-27 too?

 

Yes I think so Mark - the WCS of the Su-27 and MiG-29(base versions) are quite closely related.

 

However, the R-27TE is only an entity for the Su-27 - the initial MiG-29 version(9-12) doesnt support the long-burn versions of the R-27 at all, but then there is the point in regards to the missile itself.....i.e. no indication that it can be "primed" with initial flyout guidance from a radar lock.....so :) .

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[Shepski]

Hmmm. 7nm would be about 13km which would be close to what I'm seeing. Sure you're using the right scale? :D

 

I figured it out... the reason we are seeing the early tracking by the TE in Pilotasso's trk is because it is going for the jet with afterburner on.

 

In my test mission I had the Eagle at high speed, in afterburner and the TE started tracking at about 13-14km.

[Shepski]

Yes I think so Mark - the WCS of the Su-27 and MiG-29(base versions) are quite closely related.

 

However, the R-27TE is only an entity for the Su-27 - the initial MiG-29 version(9-12) doesnt support the long-burn versions of the R-27 at all, but then there is the point in regards to the missile itself.....i.e. no indication that it can be "primed" with initial flyout guidance from a radar lock.....so :) .

 

Righto and in my book, Mig-29 Flight Manual Declassified it doesn't even mention the R-27T or R-73 as available weapons.

 

It also states that for IR missiles to be launched the "NP" command must be given... I'm guessing this pertains to the R-60 so who knows with regards to the Su-27 and T/TE missiles.

[GGTharos]

The R-27T uses the R-60 seeker, so that should guide your guess ;)

 

I hear the TE -may- be using the R-73 seeker.

[Frostie]

Has it been concluded yet whether the ET is guided initially then seeker tracks after 8 miles? If this is so then someone needs todo the math regarding the seekers view 8mile out ,I should imagine it would be a deceptively large area. As it would probably need a drastic change of direction by the defender not to be seen by it if the shooter turned tail early and lost link.

[GGTharos]

at 20km (about 11nm) the 'visible area' would be 1000m radius ... then again, if you're running around in AB, you deserve it :)

[D-Scythe]

at 20km (about 11nm) the 'visible area' would be 1000m radius ... then again, if you're running around in AB, you deserve it :)

 

Well, if there's a cloud somewhere between you and the missile, or over a city, or you're near the sun, moon, or popped flares in anticipation of being shot at, the chance of the R-27ET locking you gets cut to ribbons, It's just as likely to lock onto anything else.

[Pilotasso]

Ah... I believe your numbers and in the track the first missile heads downhill towards the first pair of Eagles then abrubtly levels off and then shortly thereafter starts maneuvering for the trailing higher Eagle. I can't duplicate the missile maneuvering any farther then 7 km against an F-15.

 

I wonder what his missile slider was set at... Pilotasso?? I always am set at default BTW.

 

Default settings. And Im not the only one to observe this. It only requires good distance estimation to target and it can only guess if its coming or not.

 

BTW I managed yet another (because it wasnt the first 1) ET maddog at 169 server ( you were there, remenber the BINGO comment?) . And thats when the that servers settings wich is the slidder at default.

[GGTharos]

And I'll point out that you -do- have flares out it'll go after them instead of your plane at that range, AFAIK. So long as you ain't in burner.

[504 Wolverine]

So is this a case of the ET in lockon having a problem or Eagle pilots like pilotasso getting burned because they don't detect the missle (IMHO exactly what heaters and EOS is for)

[Ice]

I dont think anyone is debating anymore whether Maddogging an ET is possible or not. I think the point is whether it makes the missile any more dangerous than an AIM120 or an R77. Both of these missiles can also be maddogged and can fly further, faster. The ET seems to lose its effectiveness to lead pursuit a target after 15km (8m). Not very far.

 

I bet if you start Madogging the AIM120 at 8 miles you will get better results. All be it risking friendly kills.

[GGTharos]

Well, according to sources, which have been mentioned here so I will not repeat them, you -cannot- mad dog an ET.

 

Also, a lot of environmental factors which would make this ineffective, as well as the seeker limitation that would make this ineffective, are not modelled.

 

It really isn't that huge a deal on its own, it's more of an issue as compared to other missiles which should be performing better than they are right now.

[504 Wolverine]

So in short, we REALLY need WAFM :D

[GGTharos]

WAFM is only kinematics though....what we really needs is:

 

WASM (Weapon Advanced Sensor Model)

AEM (Advanced Environment Model)

[EvilBivol-1]

Also:

 

ARLM (Advanced Real Life Model)

 

;)

[Ice]

In lockon an ET can be Maddogged. I havent once gotten involved in Real Life Can and Cant's. I'm no where near qualified.

[Ice]

As Shepski said. This thread can be boiled down to one thing.

 

Is the ET missile UBER In Lock-On?

 

My opinion and there are other top notch online players who fly all aircraft that agree with me is NO ET is not Uber.

 

I'm pretty good in the F15, Su27, MiG29. I dont have a favourite although right now the MiG29S is not in my good books. But only because of its near impossiblility to see at close range. So I chose not to fly it.

 

I dont see any real advantage in sniping it at 16km when you could fire it in EOS mode at 15km. A good pilot can fire ER's much earlier and F-Pole any incoming missile fired outside of 16km very successfully. So waiting to maddog your ET might get you a kill but you also (as demonstrated) might well die in the process trying to line up the target exactly as an ER homes in. You can also be sure that experienced pilots are flanking 30-40 degrees when you take aim and probably getting ready to reverse the tac as well. Any less experienced players that might be sniped with an ET inside or even outside that range would no doubt be just as dead with another more legitimate tactic. Sooner or later they will catch on anyway. So in summing it up I believe the "fad" of maddogging ET's will come and go in a very short amount of time. The disadvantages will in time far outweigh the small advantage.

[Breakshot]

Well, according to sources, which have been mentioned here so I will not repeat them, you -cannot- mad dog an ET.

Ok, here is a page from the manual again (pg, 169), which clearly states that u can release these missiles in a completely unguided manner (maddoging??) It states that u have to press some switch and hold it etc. Note also thats not simply jettisoning the weapon, as that is described as well. This is actually releasing the missile if required by any "tactical" situation. So it is very much possible to "maddog" an ET!

 

Another interesting page (pg 142) shows the thermal profile of targets for Headon/Rear/Close/Long Range/low alt/High alt/ for launching an intercept missile. So it clearly proves that these missiles are definately employed at such ranges, or at least ment to be employed.

[Breakshot]

My opinion and there are other top notch online players who fly all aircraft that agree with me is NO ET is not Uber.

 

Spot on Ice! I agree with you 100% as I already said, I would rather have the ability to launch an Amraam in TWS with no trails at a much longer range, rather than "maddogin" ETs at ridiculous ranges.