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Posted (edited)

Things I do not like in this model of the Bf109 K4:

 

Landing and Taking Off:

 

Initial comments removed... Maybe my problem really! Will continue trainning...

 

Excessive right aileron trim:

It certainly feels great inflight, less the fact that there is too much right roll due to the aileron trim tab settings IMO... If you enable the controller view window ( CTRL-Enter by default, if I'm not mistaken... ) You'll see that aileron axis deflected to the right a lot more than in the Dora, with my settings, and that accounts for the excessive ( IMO ) tendency to roll to the right, when flying at cruise settings ( 1.35 ATA ).

 

Breaking your wings so easily:

Then, there's that easy way of breaking your wings, when you pull a little harder... This is particularly irritating for me :-/ There being no G meter I can't even say they're braking way too soon... But, they certainly break way before the pilot blacks-out... Might be due to the fact that there is no perception of controls loosing effectiveness with speed / Gs ( ? ).

 

Instability at lower speeds:

Well, again after watching the video linked in this thread, I got the idea that it can be the case IRL too...

 

 

It's a beta, and very good for a beta model, but let's hope it get's some fine tuning...

Edited by jcomm

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Posted

Wings are going to be addressed.

 

The BF109 was known for its notorious takeoff/landings and hopefully they had someone that flew a BF109 test it. I doubt the Germans made alot of propaganda videos of BF109's crashing on takeoff or landing. So far I'm landing a K-4 more successful than I ever landed the Dora. That doesn't mean its not a struggle to slow down and land but I've had no snapped tailwheels or snapped tails in the K4. I've lost control twice slowing it down but it was landed when I screwed up.

Posted

I still look like a gooney bird floundering to get off the ground......the staffelkapitan would disown me! I managed to get off the ground a couple of hours ago, and got back on terra firma....though with a bent prop. This beast was always one of my favorites from the era, something sexy about it for sure

Posted

I have done many take-offs/landings and find them easy now. It behaves just the way I would expect of a 109.

 

Try this:

 

For take-off, use full trim nose down, apply the necessary amount of right rudder to stay on the centerline, push the stick forward when you can lift the tail-wheel off the ground and let the plane do the rest.

 

For landing, fly it with idle throttle just above the runway until it sets itself down, let it roll for a moment and then pull the stick back and hold it there until the speed is manageable, use small taps on the brakes for corrections.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Posted

I found in the manual it says flaps down makes the plane nose heavy and gear down makes the plane tail heavy. I was unable to takeoff until I started putting 5 down flap in. Since then I can take off every time. I still have to use some stick foreward but that is with leaving the trim set on 0.

Landing I am still working on but am getting very close...:book:

The wing thing is all handled by Sith over in bug reports.

I know the frustration, I have been trying to dogfight against the FW190 and I break the wing every time.

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Posted

Well the taking off with the thing isn't done much easier by that bug with being unable to set manual prop pitch.

 

The wing breaking thing is obviously a bug an being looked at and fixed.

 

The slats seem to work odd, they seem to be (at least graphically) deployed in an instant and stay there with a delay, even after which normal Angle of Attack is restored.

 

Also something smeells fishy about the undercarriage. It doesn't seem to damp the contact with terry firma, its almost if I would roll on fixed steel wheels. Also had odd moments of skidding almost sidewards on one undercarriage, with predictable results. I would say the damping and friction could be looked at, or its simply a problem with concrete runways.

 

Compared to takeoff, landing seems comperatively easy.

http://www.kurfurst.org - The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site

 

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Posted
Things I do not like in this model of the Bf109 K4:

 

Landing and Taking Off:

I can't really believe the real thing was so difficult to land :-/

 

I can't also accept the jump it gives at takeoff, even at full forward trim....

 

It was very difficult to land...

At least most Bf 109 pilots stated that it took a good bunch of awareness and attention.

 

Provided that the flight model is done right you should consider the fact that you are not really sitting in the plane.

You can't feel it. Sometimes i think the simulation has it's limits here - it's almost too good due to the lack of physical feedback. I know - it sounds crazy.

 

The only thing that helps is to practice, ask for advice from other sim pilots - and then practice some more.

And learn to fly it without the feedback from your buttocks... :smilewink:

 

For the take-off:

It really want's to jump off the ground.

If you watch onboard videos from real Bf's you can see that it takes a good amount off stick and rudder input to control her - and of course stick forward movement even when the plane get's airbourne.

 

Oh and for the landings: it apparently is a little bit bouncy and looks not too comfortable even when experienced pilots are behind the stick.

 

Watch this video (which was posted quite often in other threads now):

It may can help a bit - well at least it helped me.

The DCS Bf 109 is not far off what you can see here in terms of take-off and landing.

Try to replicate it - and you'll see: It's not as hard as you might think :P

Posted

What i see on these video there is no need to stick forward during lift the plane rather pilot make stick little back to lift the plane.

 

Strong stick forward is need only to rise the tail during take off run then pilot relase the stick to lift the plane.

 

Also what is strange to me that K-4 lift very fast after rise the tailwheel which is not to seen in video above casue plane need some more take off run with rised tailwheel. In DCS K-4 lift near immidietly after rise tailwheel.

Posted

I think is just beta... I mess up all my landings (not a single death... strangely) but the way they are messed up looks very unrealistic. Plane slides bounces wing to wing, does things I simply don't understand...

 

It feels... very different from P51 which is hard to fly but is kinda sweet... this is just berserk. Dora is a kitten compared to it.

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Posted

Take-off: really unpredictable on that torque effect. Even if I try to counteract it, sometimes it flips up-down my plane.

 

Landing: I don't find it very bouncing (sometimes I have more problems with the P-51). I find more difficult to keep it straight: as soon as it start moving sideways, it looses balance and touches the ground with one wing (with bad outcomes...)

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Posted
I

 

Just listen to that engine.. Sweeeet as a nut. Can practically hear every cylinder firing and it doesn't even sound like it's breaking a sweat.

 

I'm thinking after the Hawk, the BF is next on my list :pilotfly:

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Posted
Take-off: really unpredictable on that torque effect. Even if I try to counteract it, sometimes it flips up-down my plane.

 

The "unpredictable" torque effect is a known characteristic of the 109. The nose up tendency feels perhaps a bit strong, I don't know if it is realistic. It is fully manageable though if you use full nose down trim and keep the stick forward a bit.

 

Also make sure you have take-off assistance off (at 0) in the special settings tab. Before I realised it was on I also had a couple of strange flips on take-off. I don't want the assistance but strangely it seemed to just make the behaviour harder to control.

 

Landing: I don't find it very bouncing (sometimes I have more problems with the P-51). I find more difficult to keep it straight: as soon as it start moving sideways, it looses balance and touches the ground with one wing (with bad outcomes...)

 

To keep it straight once down simply hold back the stick and then make small corrections using the brakes.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Posted

Thanks for the suggestions! :)

One more question: during take-off, a lot of times the plane goes left even if I have full rudder right. Is it a matter of propeller blade pitch (to be set to a specific value and not auto) or am I missing something?

 

Thanks in advance!

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Posted (edited)

Hmm... don't know...

Maybe try to apply throttle gradually - like Volker Bau does in the video.

That's what I'm doing and it works pretty well.

But it's still a concentration exercise to bring her up without flipping or some other amusing maneuvers ;)

Not sure if this is the correct procedure but I lock the tail wheel before I start the take-off run.

It helps to keep the plane straight (for the time it's rolling on three wheels).

Edited by Konrad Friedrich
Posted
Things I do not like in this model of the Bf109 K4:

 

Landing and Taking Off:

I can't really believe the real thing was so difficult to land :-/

 

I can't also accept the jump it gives at takeoff, even at full forward trim....

Setting full nose heavy trim, and manual prop pitch at 12:00, even with a 250Kg bomb, at takeoff we're forced to use a good deal of forward stick???? Is this realistic?

 

Way too difficult that's how I find it.... On landing, it also get's out of control way too easily... Could it be easier on a grass strip?

I've seen a few videos of modern 109s landing, even bouncing, and certainly not getting out of control so easily....

 

I have no source of info though, just plain good sense, and the fact that this was actually the most advanced of all of the Bf109s produced for the Luftwaffe, so, I assume it was designed to integrate all lessons learned from previous models.

 

Excessive right aileron trim:

It certainly feels great inflight, less the fact that there is too much right roll due to the aileron trim tab settings IMO...

 

Breaking your wings so easily:

Then, there's that easy way of breaking your wings, when you pull a little harder... This is particularly irritating for me :-/ There being no G meter I can't even say they're braking way too soon... But, they certainly break way before the pilot blacks-out... Might be due to the fact that there is no perception of controls loosing effectiveness with speed / Gs ( ? ).

 

Instability at lower speeds:

Also, way too much wobbling at low speeds after takeoff - common to all prop aircraft in DCS ( overdone gyroscopic effects?... )

 

It's a beta, and very good for a beta model, but let's hope it get's some fine tuning...

 

 

except for the wing breaking my opinion about the 109's flight model is interily different.TOP NOTCH! most convincing thing ive ever flown in a sim.

Posted

Yes, it's great, but still needs fine tuning IMO.

 

This doesn't mean I don't find it, just as DCS as a whole, the most advanced Flight Simulation platform I ever used for non airliners :)

Flight Simulation is the Virtual Materialization of a Dream...

Posted

^^i mean dont get me wrong, yes the 109 is a totally different beast than the pony or dora to handle, but i was expecting that.i love that its behaving so different.first i also thought that the trim is probably bugged and just not efficient enough, but Yo-Yo seems to state that its correct and that it was like that in the 109K4.so i believe it.also once you know about it, its no issue anymore.

 

i find take offs and landings more intuitive than in the dora.its a joy to do both 3 and 2 pointers in the K.yes you have to be carefull to not drop a wing on roll out, but then again, iirc, i read a couple of statements from ww2 109 pilots who claimed that they were using fully brakes very fast after touchdown to keep her straight and get her to a full stop quickly.thats working really good for me in DCS.

 

about the aileron trim tab....i just dont experience any right roll i have to fight.

 

instability at lower speeds...especially the 109 is a joy to handle at very very low speeds.sure subtle inputs are necessary, but that feels just about right.

Posted

It boils down to being extreme concentration is needed, for the takeoff/landing...I agree that this plane is very different, and I think it is done very well, as compared to my knowledge of old reports that I have read :thumbup:

Posted (edited)

I have to gladly agree :-)

 

If Yo-Yo says it's modeled like the real K4, I simply have to accept it :) When makes such statements, he knows what he's saying ;-)

 

But! I am glad he didn't yet say the same about the wings parting away too easily.... ;-)

 

I'll keep practicing....

 

 

BTW: David, yesterday I entered an MP at DoW, but there were no K4 options to fly?

Edited by jcomm

Flight Simulation is the Virtual Materialization of a Dream...

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