[CLOSED]Bf-109 Trim controls

[Nedum]

Ok, to fly the WWII planes was a hard work out for every Pilot, because, if the Plane wasn't trimmed out (often during a dogfight), they had to fight with the muscles against all the forces acting on the plane. Every tiny little input was a hard work out.

What do you guys think about the forces a WWII fighter Pilot must act with?

A good leveld out Plane was the first and last thing for a plane engineer. And to have that feature over the whole speed, you need a good trim methode.

Aces has written how often the strength of the Pilot was the reason for a victory or a death.

But one of the best diveplanes, has no option for a negativ trim at high speeds?

How should a real pilot dive with such a plane, if you have to fight for level flight at 450 kph?

Not one super body builder would have the strenght to fly this plane long at cruising speed.

I hardly doubt, that the germans were such idiots and let her pilots fight all the time the plane at cruising speed.

And why do you guys think again, that the more worst a plane is to handle the more realistic must it be? I don't get it! :huh:

[Echo38]

Every tiny little input was a hard work out.

 

At transonic speeds, sure. But at cruise speeds, only if the plane was very badly out of trim. When I was taking lessons IRL, for my first few hours, I used to ignore the trim; my instructor had to keep urging me to trim the airplane. I distinctly recall holding the yoke back for an ~8-minute climb when it was trimmed for straight-and-level instead of the climb; it did start to get tiring after a while, and eventually I trimmed it on my own, to my instructor's amusement. But it wasn't a "hard work out," and it wasn't a tiny input, but rather a lengthy deviation from the trimmed attitude.

 

Things change for the harder when you're going 300 MPH instead of 120 MPH, yes, but the original statement is generally an overstatement.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Echo38

[DieHard]

Ok, to fly the WWII planes was a hard work out for every Pilot, because, if the Plane wasn't trimmed out (often during a dogfight), they had to fight with the muscles against all the forces acting on the plane. Every tiny little input was a hard work out.

What do you guys think about the forces a WWII fighter Pilot must act with?

A good leveld out Plane was the first and last thing for a plane engineer. And to have that feature over the whole speed, you need a good trim methode.

Aces has written how often the strength of the Pilot was the reason for a victory or a death.

But one of the best diveplanes, has no option for a negativ trim at high speeds?

How should a real pilot dive with such a plane, if you have to fight for level flight at 450 kph?

Not one super body builder would have the strenght to fly this plane long at cruising speed.

I hardly doubt, that the germans were such idiots and let her pilots fight all the time the plane at cruising speed.

And why do you guys think again, that the more worst a plane is to handle the more realistic must it be? I don't get it! :huh:

 

If I get the speed right for cruise, the plane flies itself, in the German aircraft. The P-51 I am always fussin' with the trim, but it is just little movements.

 

In heat of combat, the adrenaline takes over! Afterwards, sure, a guy is going to feel a bit spent.

 

Don't know about you guys, but a good sim fight in here, in MP, gets my palms sweaty and my heart races fast enough to cause me concern about my health, in this sim and the other WWII era sim I fly, especially fighting in WWII era aircraft. Sometimes I got to be careful getting too immersed in the battle! I did A-Fib once, I'm good, don't want to do it again. LOL

 

I have only flown sims. Few guys in here have ever flown a WWII era real life aircraft. So, getting the info from a book read? Didn't DCS hire a WWII German vet to proof the plane before the beta release?

 

What I get from the DCS version Bf-109, it is a very simply designed aircraft, less complicated than the Fw-190 or P-51. It is almost as simple to fly as the WWI aircraft; ever been to Rhinebeck, NY? My favorite plane in DCS, so far, is the Fw-190, but I like flying the 109.

Edited May 28, 2015 by DieHard

[jermin]

What's wrong with this plane?

 

I haven't been flying this plane for about a month. Tonight, when I try out the free flight mission, the K4 is doing a barrel roll on its own the second I unpaused the game. And I need to push the stick forward VERY hard in order to keep it flying level.

 

What the hell are you doing with this plane, ED?

[Devrim]

Nothing wrong with it. At least at my side.

 

An input conflict came in my mind, but if you provide a track, we can see what's going wrong...

[SilentGun]

have you looked at your wing? maybe its gone, that would explain it :)

[Deezle]

I've also noticed lately it seems to take an unreasonable amount of left stick to keep her level but haven't really looked into it.

[NineLine]

No issue here, maybe submit a track, someone can look at it if they have time.

[feefifofum]

Jermin, have you done any custom joystick button work in your .lua files, and/or are your options set to sync with hotas on startup?

 

I noticed some strange issues after noodling around to make my two and three way switches work without a TARGET profile. When I started a mission with the sync option on, my virtual stick was all the way forward and left, and my virtual throttle was all the way up in spite of that not reflecting the true physical position of the controls.

Needless to say, this made the first airborne start I attempted pretty hilarious. :D

 

Unchecking the "sync" option fixed this and allowed me to keep my customized .LUA; just have to check your HOTAS before you hit fly (or pause it and fix it whenever you discover the mistake.)

[jermin]

Track's attached. I do have sync option enabled. But my elevator trim controls are set on buttons, not on a axis. The configured axes are pitch, bank, yaw and throttle. I had made sure they were correctly calibrated.

test.trk

Edited June 12, 2015 by jermin

[NineLine]

Ok, I see what you are saying now, if you jump in and dont touch anything it will nose up real heavy. I guess I never noticed it because I dont start up the plane without being prepared to gather her up... once you trim it a little and get settled in, its fine... my best suggestion is be prepared to fly when you click fly :)

[jermin]

I've never heard that 109s tend to nose up thus heavily. It requests a very hard forward push to keep it flying level. Let alone maneuvering it.

[NineLine]

You have to trim it out, and for me its fine once I do so.

[Random]

Yep just trim and it's fine.

[kontiuka]

Maybe ED should tweak the trim settings for in-flight start.

[NineLine]

Maybe ED should tweak the trim settings for in-flight start.

 

That's something I might ask about...

[SharpeXB]

There's a setting for setting your hotas at the game start. Does messing with that have any effect? If your trim is on an axis?

[Buzzles]

That's something I might ask about...

 

Sith, you said there was nothing wrong in the other thread where a number of people (myself included) are saying there's an issue with trimming as we have to trim full nose to fly something remotely close to level, and now you're saying there's definitely a problem in the fact it pitches up on air starts, where it's set to 0 trim.

 

Are you now agreeing that there's a trim setting issue to be worked out?

[NineLine]

No I am saying that the trim should be set to normal flight for an air start, instead you have to adjust immediately at the start. The 109 pitching up at 0 seems to be what ED thinks it should be.

[IIIJG52_Otto_]

I haven't been flying this plane for about a month. Tonight, when I try out the free flight mission, the K4 is doing a barrel roll on its own the second I unpaused the game. And I need to push the stick forward VERY hard in order to keep it flying level.

 

What the hell are you doing with this plane, ED?

 

Sith, you said there was nothing wrong in the other thread where a number of people (myself included) are saying there's an issue with trimming as we have to trim full nose to fly something remotely close to level, and now you're saying there's definitely a problem in the fact it pitches up on air starts, where it's set to 0 trim.

 

Are you now agreeing that there's a trim setting issue to be worked out?

 

No I am saying that the trim should be set to normal flight for an air start, instead you have to adjust immediately at the start. The 109 pitching up at 0 seems to be what ED thinks it should be.

 

SiThSpAwN, please be honest, the whole community takes months reporting that the elevator trim control and trim tabs are poorly modeled on the Bf-109K4.

There is a thread with 13 pages on this topic.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=135453

 

We have provided evidence, and comments from pilots who fly this plane, and now it looks like you .. Are you saying that the elevator trim of the K4 is okay ?. why?

 

All pilots know that the zero mark in the elevator trim control is neutral attitude, ..and that applies to all aircraft which have this mark, including the Bf-109.

 

When the bf-109K4 is born in flight in DCS, the airplane start with correctly setting the elevator trim to zero for leveled flight, ..but the flight model is wrong, and the airplane starts in the air in extremely bad pitch-up attitude.

That is totally unrealistic.

[NineLine]

First, dont accuse me of anything... second, I said I can trim out the nose pitch, I didnt say it was correct as I have never flown a real Me 109K, but I trust Yo-Yo, and I trust his sources. If ED says its how it was, then I trust them.

 

You need to refine your posting methods. Also you need to refine your testing methods, you claim all this evidence, but you never really show accurate comparisons of real world to sim world.

 

 

SiThSpAwN, please be honest, the whole community takes months reporting that the elevator trim control and trim tabs are poorly modeled on the Bf-109K4.

There is a thread with 13 pages on this topic.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=135453

 

We have provided evidence, and comments from pilots who fly this plane, and now it looks like you .. Are you saying that the elevator trim of the K4 is okay ?. why?

 

All pilots know that the zero mark in the elevator trim control is neutral attitude, ..and that applies to all aircraft which have this mark, including the Bf-109.

 

When the bf-109K4 is born in flight in DCS, the airplane start with correctly setting the elevator trim to zero for leveled flight, ..but the flight model is wrong, and the airplane starts in the air in extremely bad pitch-up attitude.

That is totally unrealistic.

Edited June 13, 2015 by NineLine

[IIIJG52_Otto_]

One, dont accuse me of anything... second, I said I can trim out the nose pitch, I didnt say it was correct as I have never flown a real Me 109K, but I trust Yo-Yo, and I trust his sources. If ED says its how it was, then I trust them.

 

You need to refine your posting methods. Also you need to refine your testing methods, you claim all this evidence, but you never really show accurate comparisons of real world to sim world.

 

1/Please, No offense you for my comments.

 

2/ I have not flown a Bf-109k4 real, ..but I can read, and I have read many books about this aeroplane, and comments from many pilots who have flown a Bf-109, .. and they do not talk anything about the nose-up attitude, with the elevator trim set in zero.

 

3/ Unknown to the sources used by E.D.to model the Bf-109K4, but obviously something is wrong ..no need to be Einstein to realize it.

[kontiuka]

2/ I have not flown a Bf-109k4 real, ..but I can read, and I have read many books about this aeroplane, and comments from many pilots who have flown a Bf-109, .. and they do not talk anything about the nose-up attitude, with the elevator trim set in zero.

I don't own the Bf-109 module but if it is anything like the P-51D, all the zero mark means is that the trim tab is flush with the elevator. This wouldn't at all prevent nose-up pitch as air speed is gained so you definitely would have to trim down.

[msalama]

the fact it pitches up on air starts, where it's set to 0 trim

And what's the airspeed exactly? Is it such that it results in a hands-off level flight at zero elevator trim, or something else altogether? Or does this happen regardless of how fast one is flying when the mission starts?

 

Inquiring geezers want to know. :smartass:

[IIIJG52_Otto_]

I don't own the Bf-109 module but if it is anything like the P-51D, all the zero mark means is that the trim tab is flush with the elevator. This wouldn't at all prevent nose-up pitch as air speed is gained so you definitely would have to trim down.

 

The Bf-109 is different, it is a more simple and advanced design, it is equipped with THS (Trimmable Horizontal Stabilizer) as modern Airbus.

The trim tabs are fixed and adjusted on the ground to level the aircraft in cruise flight.

But, like the P-51D, ..the zero mark in the trim control is for leveled flight.

open the spoiler for details

 

 

Bf-109 elevator system with elevator adjustable pitch

 

P-51 elevator system with in-flight adjustable servo trim tabs.