You need a stick and throttle, they said...

[Yurgon]

Demonstrate mig-21bis landing with keyboard only please

 

Challenge accepted! :D

 

TBH, this was my third attempt because I crashed during the first two attempts. Even so, things got too hectic and I ruined the landing gear.

 

Then again, my first "real" landing with HOTAS and TrackIR didn't look much better. :)

 

It'd be great to see someone excel at this task, though. :thumbup:

Yurgon_MiG-21_Instant_Action_Take-off+Landing_Keyboard+Mouse_only.trk

[fixen]

As long as you have fun it is all good. But I think online play is going to get frustrating fast without a stick. Though we all die a lot the first few runs online.

 

If somehow you live close to Groningen, Netherlands, I have a spare logitech xtreme 3D stick for you you can pick up If your tight with cash.

 

If not, you may want to look it up If you got around 30 euro's to spare and buy one.

[313_Nevo]

keyboard + mouse? why not.. better to begin this way as not to begin at all :thumbup:

 

if you search the web you can also find way how to turn your mouse into the joystick. ok, ok, here you go:

Turn Your Mouse Into A Joystick For PC Gaming

 

there are so many ways to njoy the game. I was also that mind 'hey, kb + mouse??? are you serious? buy cheap stick!' but then I saw few videos by guys playing seriously online (remember one guy flying during online campaign in CLOD and one guy flying ACES HIGH II) and I realized that there is nothing to stop you from having fun and being part of it. :pilotfly:

[Jeesus]

keyboard + mouse? why not.. better to begin this way as not to begin at all :thumbup:

 

Very true, I started SU-25 and keyboard only but at a certain point of being involved in this hobby, you will make the step forward and once you did, you will never go back.

 

Try your first cheap jostick and you'll never go back to keyboard, try a hotas warthog you'll never go back to a plastic jostick, try the oculus rift you will never go back to a monitor.

 

When the Simulator bug bites, it bites hard :D

[harm_]

Yeah that is true, I think is the same with every gizzmo we buy to fly...

 

I started using a simple stick, with just two buttons (Sidewinder Pro). I needed nothing more

Then I purchased a stick with a slider for the throttle and a twist grip for the rudder (Sidewinder FFB2). Then I cannot fly anymore with my old trusty stick.

 

Then i purchased Track IR, and again, now I cannot fly without it.

And lastly I purchased rudder pedals. Same story.

 

Finally, when the FFB2 stopped working, and having just purchased DCS-A10C, I pulled the trigger on the TM Warthog and ..... you guess it. I cannot live without the hotas now LOL

 

Nice flying using KB and mouse only, though.

Edited January 29, 2015 by harm_

[Home Fries]

Now I've gotta chime in on this.

 

I originally saw this and was thinking "air quaker", but then I realized how I started. I caught the bug with F-15 Strike Eagle using an Atari joystick, which is really no different than using a keyboard. Then I "graduated" to the original Gunship on my dad's 4.77MHz IBM XT (keyboard+monochrome monitor) and still did really well in the game on max difficulty.

 

I have been there before, and I recognize your skill and patience. By all means, please keep it up!

 

That being said, in spite of my fond memories of being a keyboard/Atari warrior, I would have killed for the stuff we take for granted now (HOTAS, TrackIR, MFDs). As soon as you can upgrade, I highly recommend it. You don't necessarily need a Warthog, but consider a X52 pro at the very least (reasonable price, decent programmability, reasonably reliable). While having a joystick is great, having a real throttle is also a huge deal. Then upgrade what you can when you can. You'll still have the skills you developed with the keyboard, but a lot more flexibility in how you handle your aircraft.

[tovivan]

I would just like to chime in because I've noticed a common thread in this community. It's been bothering me for a while, but I've held my tongue until a post in this topic finally pushed me out of silence.

 

It seems to me that some of you have lost sight of rational expenditure for what is, after all, a game. Now, what you do with your money is nobody's business, and I'm not talking about that, but there has been some pressure on fellow DCS pilots, either subtle or peer pressure, to spend larger amounts of money on hardware and it's usually centered around joysticks.

 

In most cases this pressure seems to stem from a perception that that that is how it is supposed to be for whatever reason, or from some other reason, but the end result is it appears as pressure to do that to be an "actual" part of the group, or belong or fit in or, in extreme cases, not to be mocked.

 

The members in question need to remember that for example the Warthog, the so-often recommended or pressured purchase, costs a larger slice of monthly paycheck for way too many Europeans, and in the case of Eastern and South-Eastern Europe it IS the entire monthly paycheck!

 

Not all of us have the privilege of pulling in thousands of dollars or euro per month, thus having the opportunity to spend 500 euro on a gaming peripheral is to too many just a ridiculous thought. In way too many cases many people are struggling to get through the month as it is... Costs of life are rising rapidly while paychecks are either stagnating or falling. And with no jobs and destroyed economies it's hard to get into a better financial position.

 

Even the X-52, which is sometimes seen as the lowest acceptable standard around here, is pretty expensive by our standards. Last time I checked it cost cca 120 euro brand new for the cheapest version and when I tracked it I never saw a used one go for less than 60 eur on any of the EU eBays.

 

While the ironic thing is, you don't need the most expensive joystick to be a good pilot.

 

One of the best pilots I ever met, which was in IL-2 Cliffs of Dover (a sim where flight models are more sensitive), used a several years old Logitech joystick that costs cca 40 eur new... And he regularly massacred players with set-ups of over 500 eur, some even 1k eur...

 

We are talking about a WWII full-in dogfight simulation with engine management (or else engine failure) with realistic plane component battle damage/destruction where you are not flying lazily and in a straight line at 5km and your combat is limited to just selecting and sending AMRAAMs at dots that show up on your radar... There's more maneuvering in one hour of MP play on the ATAG server in that game than a DCS server gets in a whole day.

 

I'm not saying that this is the intention, far from it, but please consider just how far a desperate need to fit in with group/circle/gang/clique can push someone (young people and drugs/smoking/drinking, etc.). The pressure to spend an inordinate amount of money on what is a game (there IS a real life out there... ) that can sometimes be felt in this community can sometimes make people who are not as privileged to live in a rich country and have the opportunity to hit it big or be born to rich parents, feel less worthy.

 

Ease off the pressure and your recommendations when they weren't requested. As they say, live and let live.

 

In the end, I'd just like to put in a disclaimer that this post wasn't meant as inflammatory, nor am I pointing fingers at anyone, but am just asking for a little more relaxed atmosphere in what is, after all a small community for acomputer game.

 

Thank you.

[Ktulu2]

I disagree with you on severals points :

First of, to me the good thing of the warthog is the throttle, not the stick (I only use Pickle and gun and Master mode (+NWS) on the stick, wich can fit on a 10$ joystick if you find one) But that's juste personnal.

 

Second of, In this thread, I and others were discussing the need of A STICK (i.e. logitech). For a BFM life, I see very litle differance beetwen my wathog and my logitech (hell of a jump budget-wise lol)

 

Third of, do some BVR/WVR... BFM sure is more of a ''oh shit PULL'' game, but if you are going straight to your target you have no understanding of how missiles work and you'll get wrecked. But it is completely true that it is more of a chess game or a ''let's build up SA'' game than the dogfight wich are like an FPS in comparison.

 

Finally, as I already said, I do not see how you'd benefit that much of the warthog in 60 years old planes excepted in formation...heck did the airbrake existed back then?

On the other hand, newer hotas planes require more commands WICH WORKS ON A 30$ STICK (I did a long way with that myself), but I think your WW2 exemple is out of place (at least to me)

 

This thread is about wether you need a stick or not. Not about if you need a high end stick (or why not a high end keyboard lol).

[tovivan]

I disagree with you on severals points :

First of, to me the good thing of the warthog is the throttle, not the stick (I only use Pickle and gun and Master mode (+NWS) on the stick, wich can fit on a 10$ joystick if you find one) But that's juste personnal.

 

Sadly you missed the point I was trying to make completely.

 

Second of, In this thread, I and others were discussing the need of A STICK (i.e. logitech).

 

Please note that I specifically said I am not pointing fingers or naming names or speaking about needing a stick. Nowhere, in no word or sentence, did I talk about you or the others you mentioned or about your position.

 

What I was trying to get across is that some members in this entire community, not just thread, have.... "exceeded their jurisdictions" and are either giving unrequested forceful advice or consciously or unknowingly putting pressure on other members of this community in regards to the amount of money those "should" spend on their hardware for this game.

 

I will refrain from speaking again in this topic because follow-up posts by the poster, where he either tries to explain or defend his words, never bring anything good.

 

Thank you and good day. :)

[xaoslaad]

People just have strong opinions in their mind about what the ultimate experience is.

 

Some people think anything less than a full cockpit isn't enough and diligently (and impressively) work on each individual panel, switch and knob. The thought just makes me tired, not to mention I barely justify the space a weight bench takes up in the house, let alone the space a cockpit would take. It's cool, just too much for me.

 

There is nothing wrong with a $25 or $30 Logitech stick to start (or play permanently if that's all you want.) Having (had) bad Saitek controllers I can't get to work reliably, and considering the money they charge for this 'mid-range' junk I steer people to the high end if they're serious about getting a HOTAS.

 

I have a Warthog and though it was expensive I cannot deny now that it is worth every cent. Compared to a $200+ Saitek none of the axis jump or jitter or have noticeable slop that requires dead zones to cancel out. Not to mention the stick on the throttle doesn't drift to the right for no reason, unplugging the controller doesn't bluescreen windows, etc. I have an appreciation for the fact that this stick and throttle just works, which is apparently something that's tough for Saitek to get right at the almost $200 price point.

 

I'm probably going to look at Crosswind pedals in a few months as the Saitek combat pro pedals, after opening them up, have depressed me that this cost near $200 for a bunch of crappy plastic and a circuit board with metal pedals. I'd have preferred some of the parts inside were made of metal.

 

My point is: for an extra $300-$350 up front I could have not wasted almost $400 on Saitek junk that has provided at least as much frustration (particularly the x52 pro) as utility. Since there isn't an overwhelmingly huge range of HOTAS's and I steer people as far away from Saitek as I can based off my experiences it pretty much leaves me suggesting the high end.

 

You can call that snobbish, or forceful, but in my mind I am trying to save people money when they become frustrated and start looking beyond the mid-range. I cringe every time I hear someone say they just bought a Saitek controller.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

Give this guy some credit! I have great respect that he can fly and fight with keyboard and mouse only! It's like seeing a crippled person running a marathon, like playing a first person shooter with a game controller, or like driving a stick shift with only one arm and one leg.

 

I'm sure you could become very good with mouse and keyboard only, but it's not really a question whether it's better, or even just as good as a joystick + throttle + rudder pedal setup. For one, you can't dose the control inputs with keyboard, it's either 1 (full deflection) or 0 (nothing). I would love to see a video of you flying a helicopter or WWII bird (sim mode) with keyboard, but don't think it's possible without mimicking an epileptic attack in bashing the keys.

 

But seriously though, it's all about enjoying the game itself. I'm sure you can have just as much fun (albeit limited to FC3 aircraft) playing DCS with a keyboard as with a joystick. That's what it's all about

 

i am not exactly sure anymore, but i once tried to fly with keyboard just for the fun of it and to see how this is working...iirc, it is not 1(full defelction) or 0(nothing) as you say, but you keep the button pressed, and the stick deflects more and more, until you release the button.then the virtual stick stays in that postion, until you give other inputs again....

[7rooper]

I knew a guy who was a skillful player in Quake 3 (A first person shooter for PC) using the keyboard only. He beat many good players and seeing him playing was something to behold and admire but he had to train very very hard and tune the keyboard inputs in the game so many times until he found the sweet spot, he told me. However, he was an average player in comparison with the pro scene players. His level couldn't go higher

So in short, it's possible even in FSX where the keyboard inputs for pitch and roll are terrible but you will spend plenty of time punishing yourself when a HOTAS is something that was researched and developed to give comfort and fast response to the pilots. That's why most of us invest in a Tracking head device to look aroound instead of using our thumb on the hat

In your case it would be RSHIFT+RCTRL+Keypad keys.... grrrrrrr...so clumsy!!

[Pikey]

I've never upgraded my hardware in order to perform better.

 

I've always done it to increase my enjoyment.

 

There's a stronger case for that point of view.

 

There are some precision instruments that can aid precision flying but i'd tend to agree that the more important factor was skill in this outcome.

[Gladman]

In the group I fly with (VCVW-14), we have everything from guys with the ultimate rig to guys just getting by.

We have an unmeasurable amount of fun and nobody in the group cares about who has what. Do we discuss it, yeah, do guys wish they could get this or that, yeah, but nobody is held to any type of expectation. Its a fun group and to be honest, some of the best people I have ever flown with are in this group.

This is a game, this is here to be a stress reliever, and it is here to help us make friends of the same mindset.

That may differ for some but to be honest, what happens in the forums is insignificant to me, what happens within my group matters, thats is. If my group mentality changed (which It won't because we are all of a certain special nature :) ), I'd move on.

 

Keep it light people, after-all, we are just blowing up pixels.

 

Dale

[Hadwell]

i think you can have fun playing this any way you want, but if you want to compete against people that have sticks and pedals and such there is definitely a bare minimum you'll need...

 

saying the game is playable without a stick is basically, when it comes to competing against other human beings, like saying it's possible to do a race on foot, when you're racing against cars...

[siraccord]

GUYS!!!

I made this thread and have since begun upgrading!! Yes you can fly with keyboard but your skill will be CAPPED at a certain level. I realized this when I begun flying in MP, couldn't really keep up, stalling, not knowing if you will land perfectly after a mission, having to redo, etc etc ...So just so you know.