lmp Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 F-14A/MiG21bis is just a good a matchup It's actually a pretty horrible match up from the MiG pilot's perspective...
OnlyforDCS Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 It's actually a pretty horrible match up from the MiG pilot's perspective... It all depends on how effective the Cat's radar and Phoenix missile combo will be in the sim, and if the Mig can sneak up on it. They are certainly aircraft of a similar era. I think the Bis entered service in 1972, and the Cat A I believe in 1970. Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals.
lmp Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 It all depends on how effective the Cat's radar and Phoenix missile combo will be in the sim The radar will be certainly beyond comparison with the RP-22 and the Phoenix and Sparrow are better than no BVR missiles for the MiG. MiGs wanting to engage Tomcats will have to survive a barrage of AIM-54s and AIM-7s first, while the Tomcats will be perfectly safe until they reach knife fight range. if the Mig can sneak up on it That proves that the MiG-21 can shoot down unsuspecting targets on its own terms. It does not in any way prove that the match up is fair. You don't prove that two sides are equal by giving one of them a massive tactical advantage. If that were the case you could argue that a MiG-15 is a fair match up for an F-22. They are certainly aircraft of a similar era. I think the Bis entered service in 1972, and the Cat A I believe in 1970. Which makes an F-14A vs. MiG-21bis scenario feasible, but it doesn't change the fact that the Tomcat would mop the floor with the MiG.
vicx Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) Wasn't the F14 a Fleet Defender. It was for shooting down threats to the Fleet. This threats would be Migs? What I mean is that realistic would be for F14 main role to intercept standoff bombers with cruise missiles. True? Edited February 13, 2015 by vicx
emg Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) That proves that the MiG-21 can shoot down unsuspecting targets on its own terms. It does not in any way prove that the match up is fair. You don't prove that two sides are equal by giving one of them a massive tactical advantage. If that were the case you could argue that a MiG-15 is a fair match up for an F-22. MiG-15 has nowhere near the the acceleration or top speed of an F-22. MiG-21bis vs F-14A is a very different matter. No it's not a "fair" matchup but it's very far from hopeless. (What's fair anyway? Let's say the MiG-21bis build cost is 1/3rd of the F-14A build cost. Is a fair matchup then 3 MiG-21bis vs 1 F-14A?) Sure the radar needs to be fooled or the BVR missiles have to be defeated... which does happen in Red Flag type excersises, according to pilot interviews. They still end up in a lot of WVR situations even when they simulate AMRAAMs. Edited February 13, 2015 by emg
Vampyre Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 Wasn't the F14 a Fleet Defender. It was for shooting down threats to the Fleet. This threats would be Migs? What I mean is that realistic would be for F14 main role to intercept standoff bombers with cruise missiles. True? Yes it was the fleet defender. But it was also designed to go toe to toe with the best land based fighters of the time as well. That is a big part of the reason the F-111B was killed off so spectacularly which led to the Tomcats actual name. The Iranians proved the Tomcat to be a very capable air superiority fighter during the Iran/Iraq war. It has not been proven (thankfully) how effective the Tomcat would have been against the Long Range Bomber/Cruise Missile threat. Truly superior pilots are those that use their superior judgment to avoid those situations where they might have to use their superior skills. If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! "If at first you don't succeed, Carrier Landings are not for you!"
lmp Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 MiG-15 has nowhere near the the acceleration or top speed of an F-22. Which doesn't matter if the MiG manages to surprise the Raptor and get into a favorable position. The guns on the MiG are good enough to do the job and that's pretty much everything you can prove by discussing "what if airplane A sneaks up on airplane B". MiG-21bis vs F-14A is a very different matter. No it's not a "fair" matchup but it's very far from hopeless. You can't compare it to Mustang vs. Dora, Sabre vs. MiG-15 or Eagle vs. Flanker. Streakeagle lists F-14 vs. MiG-21/23 along with them as "classic duel pairs" where it simply doesn't belong. (What's fair anyway? Let's say the MiG-21bis build cost is 1/3rd of the F-14A build cost. Is a fair matchup then 3 MiG-21bis vs 1 F-14A?) There are plenty of other costs involved in operating a fighter aircraft than just the purchase price. Sure the radar needs to be fooled or the BVR missiles have to be defeated... which does happen in Red Flag type excersises, according to pilot interviews. They still end up in a lot of WVR situations even when they simulate AMRAAMs. So the F-14 crew has to fail on several levels for the MiG-21 to even stand a chance... I'm not saying it's physically impossible for the Fishbed to shoot down a Tomcat, but it's just nowhere in the ballpark of "fair". Read again the post to which I originally replied. P-51D/Fw190D9 is a great match. F-86F/MiG-15bis another great match. F-15C/Su-27 is the present day equivalent of the above. (..) F-14A/MiG21bis is just a good a matchup Which pair stands out like a sore thumb?
EngineerFalcon Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 So the F-14 crew has to fail on several levels for the MiG-21 to even stand a chance... I'm not saying it's physically impossible for the Fishbed to shoot down a Tomcat, but it's just nowhere in the ballpark of "fair". Read again the post to which I replied. The F-14 crew doesn't necessarily have to "fail" : the radar can be jammed using active or passive countermeasures, and BVR missiles can be defeated - the MiG's acceleration would make it quite doable. The biggest concern I'd have with a F-14/MiG-21 matchup is the MiG's awful RWR. Against an opponent with such a powerful radar the MiG is definitely going to have a hard time.
King_Hrothgar Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 The MiG-21 is not a good match for the F-14A. Could I shoot one down in the MiG-21 in MP? Yeah, it would be just like downing an F-15. And if you haven't tried it, believe me, it's tough to pull off. A far better opponent would be a MiG-23. I have little doubt the barrage of AIM-54's could be easily evaded via terrain masking and maneuvering. But at the shorter BVR AIM-7 range, the MiG-21 would struggle. It's the combination of bad radar and total lack of BVR missiles that doom it. Even the terribad RWR works against it. The mid and late generation MiG-23's can fight in BVR though. They have look down shoot down radar, a better RWR and longer ranged missiles. The plane would likely still be at a disadvantage, but it wouldn't be nearly as big.
Sierra99 Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 I think he would prefer the B over the A. One other thing to consider, the D would have avionics which would have a great deal in common with the latest naval fighters still in use and as such would be classified. Don't forget, the F-14 and A-10 are about the same age. While developed for different missions. The systems added to the F-14's in the 90's for ground attack are very similar if not the same as he systems added to the A-10C. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Primary Computer ASUS Z390-P, i7-9700K CPU @ 5.0Ghz, 32GB Patriot Viper Steel DDR4 @ 3200Mhz, ZOTAC GeForce 1070 Ti AMP Extreme, Samsung 970 EVO M.2 NVMe drives (1Tb & 500 Gb), Windows 10 Professional, Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS, Thrustmaster Warthog Stick, Thrustmaster Cougar Throttle, Cougar MFDs x3, Saitek Combat Rudder Pedals and TrackIR 5. -={TAC}=-DCS Server Gigabyte GA-Z68XP-UD3, i7-3770K CPU @ 3.90GHz, 32GB G.SKILL Ripjaws DDR3 @ 1600Mhz, ZOTAC GeForce® GTX 970.
streakeagle Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 Ok, what USSR aircraft operating in the 1970s was a better match for the F-14 than a MiG-21bis? What aircraft was used at USNFWS and why was it used? Until the advent of the MiG-29 and Su-27 in the late 80s, the MiG-21bis IS the threat. If you read Red Eagles, you will discover that in real life, well flown MiG-21s that manage to get in close could be very effective against the F-14 and F-15. The only fighter the aggressor pilots admitted to fearing in a knife fight was the F-16. Other than the anemic MiG-23M/MF, what better historical matchup could there be for an early F-14A? [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
Lucas_From_Hell Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) If memory serves me right, the early Phoenix was a bomber killer, and even its latest versions weren't too impressive against fighters - let alone small maneuverable ones. Wasn't overcoming the Phoenix and Sparrow's limitations and poor performance a requirement and driving force behind the AMRAAM's development? There's no doubt the F-14 outclasses the MiG-21 in BVR, but blind trust in the mentality of 'BVR advantage = no contest' is sure to end up badly eventually. They're historically accurate as a match, and have advantages in their own ways when employed correctly. According to some reports, Aggressor F-5s gave Tomcats and Eagles a hard time even when BVR missiles were simulated. This only changed when the latter learned how to avoid giving the light fighters even a remote chance to close in for a turn fight with IR missiles and guns. My point is that you all have to use any aircraft wisely - a reasonable pilot in an inferior aircraft knows better than try to play equals. How it will create a situation where it has an edge over you depends on the mission and situation, but if you rely on magic BVR rocket wands carelessly, you will soon be featured in the MiG-21 vs modern fighters thread. :D PS: As a side-note, I remember reading a good few reports that the MiG-23 was not all that, and many crews and I believe even Air Forces preferred the MiG-21 for a number of reasons, despite the Flogger's avionics suite. I could be wrong. Edited February 14, 2015 by Lucas_From_Hell
Hadwell Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 Not sure the f14 would stand much of a chance without bvr against a mig21... The f14 reminds me more of a modern day bf110 whereas the mig21 reminds me more of a modern day la5 or yak9 My youtube channel Remember: the fun is in the fight, not the kill, so say NO! to the AIM-120. System specs:ROG Maximus XI Hero, Intel I9 9900K, 32GB 3200MHz ram, EVGA 1080ti FTW3, Samsung 970 EVO 1TB NVME, 27" Samsung SA350 1080p, 27" BenQ GW2765HT 1440p, ASUS ROG PG278Q 1440p G-SYNC Controls: Saitekt rudder pedals,Virpil MongoosT50 throttle, warBRD base, CM2 stick, TrackIR 5+pro clip, WMR VR headset. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
EngineerFalcon Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 If memory serves me right, the early Phoenix was a bomber killer, and even its latest versions weren't too impressive against fighters - let alone small maneuverable ones. Wasn't overcoming the Phoenix and Sparrow's limitations and poor performance a requirement and driving force behind the AMRAAM's development? There's no doubt the F-14 outclasses the MiG-21 in BVR, but blind trust in the mentality of 'BVR advantage = no contest' is sure to end up badly eventually. They're historically accurate as a match, and have advantages in their own ways when employed correctly. According to some reports, Aggressor F-5s gave Tomcats and Eagles a hard time even when BVR missiles were simulated. This only changed when the latter learned how to avoid giving the light fighters even a remote chance to close in for a turn fight with IR missiles and guns. My point is that you all have to use any aircraft wisely - a reasonable pilot in an inferior aircraft knows better than try to play equals. How it will create a situation where it has an edge over you depends on the mission and situation, but if you rely on magic BVR rocket wands carelessly, you will soon be featured in the MiG-21 vs modern fighters thread. :D PS: As a side-note, I remember reading a good few reports that the MiG-23 was not all that, and many crews and I believe even Air Forces preferred the MiG-21 for a number of reasons, despite the Flogger's avionics suite. I could be wrong. I think you're correct. The Phoenix was fast but not that agile. Also, I've heard it had some reliability problems, but I'm not exactly sure about that. It's also important to remember that it was a very heavy missile, so few Tomcats carried a full 6 Phoenix load - almost 1 ton of missiles. About the MiG-23 : Depends on who you ask. I know the Indian air force used it quite successfully (even contacting Mikoyan for a potential upgrade project). The Russians also had a number of projects for it, such as a carrier-capable variant. Some of them were even wired to carry nuclear bombs. They were abandoned to avoid having too many different aircrafts in their fleet. Also, if I am not mistaken it used the exact same RWR than the MiG-21. It wasn't until the ground attack MiG-27 that they finally equipped it with the SPO-15.
westr Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 Not sure the f14 would stand much of a chance without bvr against a mig21... The f14 reminds me more of a modern day bf110 whereas the mig21 reminds me more of a modern day la5 or yak9 In one of my earlier posts I put on a link to an article written by a Royal Navy pilot who had a great deal of experience with the Sea Harrier. He was fortunate enough to take part in a military exchange program and fly the F-14. In the article he points out that the F-14 was an agile jet and that he would choose the F-14 in a dogfight, don't forget the Tomcat was designed to have ACM capabilities. Now I'm not saying the Tomcat will out turn a Mig-29 or Su-27 but the big jet was more agile than people perceive, people write it off because it's an interceptor. RYZEN 7 3700X Running at 4.35 GHz NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1080Ti 32gb DDR4 RAM @3200 MHz Oculus CV1 NvME 970 EVO TM Warthog Stick & Throttle plus 11" extension. VKB T-Rudder MKIV
Lucas_From_Hell Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 About the MiG-23 : Depends on who you ask. I know the Indian air force used it quite successfully (even contacting Mikoyan for a potential upgrade project). The Russians also had a number of projects for it, such as a carrier-capable variant. Some of them were even wired to carry nuclear bombs. They were abandoned to avoid having too many different aircrafts in their fleet. Also, if I am not mistaken it used the exact same RWR than the MiG-21. It wasn't until the ground attack MiG-27 that they finally equipped it with the SPO-15. The MiG-23 user reports give me trust issues - either it was clunky junk that required too much maintenance and delivered too little in return, or it was the fighter if all fighters which successfully shot down 3 F-16s and an F-15 per sortie (see Syria's claims vs Israel). I love it to bits though, and I'd love to fly it in DCS.
EngineerFalcon Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 The MiG-23 user reports give me trust issues - either it was clunky junk that required too much maintenance and delivered too little in return, or it was the fighter if all fighters which successfully shot down 3 F-16s and an F-15 per sortie (see Syria's claims vs Israel). I love it to bits though, and I'd love to fly it in DCS. Yeah, that's a problem with most cold war era aircraft. The american Red Eagles hated it, both in the air and on the ground, and it even killed one of their test pilots. But they flew these aircraft without any flight or maintenance manuals. The Syrian reports are no doubt propaganda. I think Mikoyan published a guide for MiG-23 pilots : They said it was superior to the F-4, roughly equal to the (early) F-16, and inferior to the F-15. I don't know if they were comparing ability in BVR or maneuverability, but it seems about right. The MLD variant seems quite capable. It could withstand up to 8G, and it more or less fixed the instability and spin problems with the Type 4 wing. That's definitely an aircraft I'd love to see in DCS.
Basher54321 Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 Yeah, that's a problem with most cold war era aircraft. The american Red Eagles hated it, both in the air and on the ground, and it even killed one of their test pilots. But they flew these aircraft without any flight or maintenance manuals. The Syrian reports are no doubt propaganda. I think Mikoyan published a guide for MiG-23 pilots : They said it was superior to the F-4, roughly equal to the (early) F-16, and inferior to the F-15. I don't know if they were comparing ability in BVR or maneuverability, but it seems about right. The MLD variant seems quite capable. It could withstand up to 8G, and it more or less fixed the instability and spin problems with the Type 4 wing. That's definitely an aircraft I'd love to see in DCS. the Red Eagles flew the first generation export MiG-23MS (Flogger E) - and there is information the Stab Aug system may have not been used. This version did out accelerate every (unknown) US jet flown against it in some conditions. Alex Mladenov analysed Soviet manuals on the MiG-23MLD export version - which believed this version may have had higher excess thrust (Ps) at some points over 500Kts over the F-16A. Pilots were told to avoid close in sustained turn flights against the F-15A/16A because they were considered far more maneuverable.
Basher54321 Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 If memory serves me right, the early Phoenix was a bomber killer, and even its latest versions weren't too impressive against fighters - let alone small maneuverable ones. The AIM-54A got very good results against Iraqi jets according to the best sources to come out of its Iranian use - doesn't matter how agile a jet is if the pilot doesn't know a missile's coming.
T_A Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 Not to lessen the significance of the Phoenix , but i wouldn't put much stock in the Iranian`s reports, same goes for Syrian claims of downing even 1 IAF plane during 82' war in Lebanon. IAF.Tomer My Rig: Core i7 6700K + Corsair Hydro H100i GTX Gigabyte Z170X Gaming 7,G.Skill 32GB DDR4 3000Mhz Gigabyte GTX 980 OC Samsung 840EVO 250GB + 3xCrucial 275GB in RAID 0 (1500 MB/s) Asus MG279Q | TM Warthog + Saitek Combat Pedals + TrackIR 5 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
Basher54321 Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 Not to lessen the significance of the Phoenix , but i wouldn't put much stock in the Iranian`s reports, same goes for Syrian claims of downing even 1 IAF plane during 82' war in Lebanon. It is actually research from here https://ospreypublishing.com/iranian-f-14-tomcat-units-in-combat - generally a well respected source - however like any research I'm not saying it is 100% fact - but it is well researched and Tom does defend it quite rigorously. I have seen no credible sources back up the Syrian claims.
emg Posted February 14, 2015 Posted February 14, 2015 You can find Tom Cooper's research on his site as well: http://www.acig.info/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=35&Itemid=47 http://www.acig.info/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=36&Itemid=47 http://www.acig.info/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=37&Itemid=47 Confirmed entries are in GREEN Claims and unconfirmed entries are in WHITE Damaged and Close Calls entries are in VIOLET Fratricide entries are in LIGHT BLUE
Sleksa Posted February 16, 2015 Posted February 16, 2015 If they actually start a project for the F-14, I'll be buying up every module LN makes as appreciation for bringing such a iconic plane to DCS.
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