Suncom SFS and Talon restoration and mods

[debolestis]

What is pot travel on CH joysticks?

+\- how many degrees?

[Sokol1_br]

What is pot travel on CH joysticks?

+\- how many degrees?

 

Pot's for joystick have special resitive trail, with around 60º* of reading (electric travel) area only, despite they can turned ~300º, since use the same case for this type (300º) of pot'.

 

Explained by CH "guru" Bob Church here: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3837282/Re:_CH_josytick_spare_potentio#Post3837282

 

* This document say that for CTS HP-100 pot' used by CH the electric travel is 50º: http://www.4most.co.uk/assets/File/ch_resistive.pdf

Edited June 7, 2015 by Sokol1_br

[hannibal]

i miss the ch-hangar forums

[Sokol1_br]

Hannibal, CH-hangar forum still online: http://www.ch-hangar.com/

 

The portal (news of games, etc) that are in the same address it seems that migrated to Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/CH-Hangar/244838275571773

[debolestis]

New parts arrived. I've got this joystick for PS, it should be with hall sensors, I have no idea if it will work, I'll write about it when I test it. Only schematics I found is this:

 

It seems to be that I have newer style.

 

You can see it compared to Xbox thumb stick.

 

 

 

 

I also found 5 of these switches on eBay. All used but were 5 euros each.

 

 

 

 

 

Serial number is: A218-100646-0, manufacturer is Guardian electric, even china hat is made of aluminum. It has larger travel from what I am used to, and it thakes much more force to move it. I couldn't resist so I disassembled one. I wanted to know what the hell is inside that these things cost so much. It is so simple, it has metal case, lever, no spring but rubber ring for centering, lever extension, contact plate a little pcb and that is it. Now I need to figure out how to instal them into Talon stick.

Edited July 11, 2017 by debolestis

[Sokol1_br]

I disassembled one. I wanted to know what the hell is inside that these things cost so much. It is so simple

 

They cost much because the buyers, the military, have money, not that use some "Alien science" inside. :D

[debolestis]

Since I decided not to mod original Suncom gimbal then I bought gameport Ch Combatstick on eBay.

 

 

It is in great condition, quality is much better from all other plastic joystick that I saw. I also like trimmers for both axes and there is a throttle as well.

 

 

I cut Suncom's shat with dremel, and widen hole with step drill. An it fits almost perfectly.

 

 

There are two small holes on CH shaft and then I drilled two holes on Suncom's shaft and used two screws to secure them together. I didn't used glue so I can change grips in future if I want to.

 

 

 

I also decided to use CH directional switches. I don't like the way it is done in Suncom joystick. Ch switches seem to be much better.

 

 

And then I used epoxy to glue them. Now I need to figure out how to attach Suncom's knobs to the switches. Left hole should be smaller, I made mistake and made it bigger, but it will be fine. In pictures bellow the switches are not jet glued.

 

 

 

This mod also made shaft longer and now there is a place for a paddle switch. What can I use for that, bicycle hand brake maybe? Ideas?

Edited July 11, 2017 by debolestis

[debolestis]

...and then I washed all Ch parts and made them new again...

 

Edited July 11, 2017 by debolestis

[Sokol1_br]

In CH Combatstick (gameport) gimbal this part - red arrow - tends to wear with use, due his plastic construction. In CH Fighterstick/Combatstick USB is in steel.

 

free screen capture

 

Inspect then carefully and maybe mod with metal tube/pin.

 

"BIC" hall sensor in this gimbal assembled with original pot axis/bushing as "bearing": http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/9449/6xfi.jpg

Edited June 24, 2015 by Sokol1_br

[debolestis]

I ordered this on eBay:

 

 

 

 

It is TT Electronics/BI Technologies hall Sensor. Model is 6120, and its code is 6127V1A60L.5. V1 means that output voltage will be from 4% to 96% of VCC. A60 means that it covers that in 60 degrees. I couldn't find V0 or one with D-shaft. But shaft is same diameter as CH pot, 1/4 of inch. Also dimension of sensor is similar to CH pot.

 

I wanted to have trimmer function of CH joystick so this looked like good solution. It is more expensive but this model is "normally priced", 15$. Most other hall sensors like this are over 50$.

Edited July 11, 2017 by debolestis

[debolestis]

Now I'll show what I did. I'll explain for only half of gimbal but precedure is same for both axes.

 

First I took this out.

 

 

Then I disassembled it.

 

 

Than I took plastic part that was on the CH pot. I have to widen the hole and for that I used step drill, only used my hands with drill. First I widen hole to 10mm and then, only up to a half, to 12mm.

 

 

This is the result.

 

 

I did this so that this ring marked with arrow can fit inside. Also when I did this I noticed that notch in red square also fits into rectangular holes in plastic piece. The notch prevents body of sensor from rotating. This must be a good fit otherwise trimmers will not work. I noticed some movement here, I thing it would be a good idea to glue it to sensor. I'll see.

 

 

 

Then I assembled the trimmer

 

 

Since CH pot is D-shaft I also had to modify this part also, it would have been easier if I had 1/4 inch drill, I removed some plastic and made round hole here

 

 

Then I assembled this half of gimbal

 

 

Than I put this back into joystick. Since the sensor is similar to CH pot everything fit perfectly, I didn't have to modify anything here.

 

 

I did everything the same for other half of the gimbal.

 

 

In the end I had to mechanically calibrate each axis. I used flat screwdriver in one hand while holding body of sensor with another until I found center.

 

 

And that is it.

 

Actual travel of joystick gimbal is less than +/- 30 degrees for each axis maybe +/-25 more or less. But trimmers work, There is version of this sensor that has 50 degrees of travel, maybe it is better fit for this joystick, I don't know somebody should test that as well. Also this is a good alternative for people who would like to change pots on Ch joystick, I hear that they are very hard to find lately.

 

Please notice that I did this on gameport CH Combatstick. I don't know how this will fit in other CH joysticks.

Edited July 11, 2017 by debolestis

[Sokol1_br]

Interesting, you already tested this "HAL pot" plugged on USB controller?

[debolestis]

Interesting, you already tested this "HAL pot" plugged on USB controller?

 

Yes I tested it. I had only one minor problem with this:

 

 

This wasn't stable so I use double sided adhesive tape. Any glue would also work.

 

In first two images I conected only one sensor to a controller. It goes from 4% to 96%. Same as in data sheet. This is without gimbal.

 

 

 

This is assembled gimbal. Center.

 

Top left corner. Gimbal doesn't use +/-30 degrees, but more like +/-25 degrees of movement. There is no calibration here, all values are default.

Edited July 11, 2017 by debolestis

[Sokol1_br]

If at end - calibrated you get half of possible 94% points will be very good ~ 11 bits.

[debolestis]

I haven't work on this much lately, I've been very busy and it is too hot here.

I am almost finished with f15 joystick. It is now combination of 3 different joysticks. Suncom, Combatstick and X-fighter.

 

 

I added metal base of X-fighter joystick. Only thing I didn't like on CH joystick is that it is too light. Now it is great it is very stable. I added original hats, just a little dremel work. I have a few other mods in mind, I'd like to add two stage trigger and replace switches with something of better quality.

 

 

I also found this:

 

 

 

It is Thrustmaster FLCS an TQS. I'll make a new thread when I start to mod this. I have looked everywhere for this and in the end I found it here in Croatia for 20$.

Edited July 11, 2017 by debolestis

[Sokol1_br]

Nice find. :thumbup:

 

Maybe useful:

 

 

Replace this thing (pressure "transductor") under left thumb with a mini-joystick, HAT..., this is horrible to use.

 

[Sokol1_br]

If opt to use MMjoy (Arduino PRO micro) in FLCS+TQS no rewire will be need, as MMjoy is compatible with Tm shifter registers.

 

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4097766/Re:_MMJoy_-_Build_your_own_USB#Post4097766

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/3027-mmjoy2-i-thrustmaster/page-1#entry299650

 

https://sites.google.com/site/mmjoyproject/novosti-i-obnovlenia/obnovleniemmjoy2v20150701

 

Other code (for Teensy 3.1):

 

http://forums.adafruit.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=62188

Edited August 11, 2015 by Sokol1_br

[debolestis]

Thank your for the information Sokol1! I bought one Pro Micro and installed MMjoy2 on it and it all works.

 

I have problem wit the following:

 

 

 

 

I understand where to connect VCC, GND and SPI-MISO. SCLK is probably SPI-SCK? Where with SPI-CS? To MOSI?

 

Is there any schematics of Thrustmaster's shift registers? I was thinking maybe to make my own. It looks to me as more elegant solution to wiring joysticks. I am OK with button matrix, but there are wires and diodes everywhere, shift registers look cleaner. This way FLCS joystick can be rewired in 10 minutes to USB.

 

Is it possible to use button matrix together with shift registers in MMjoy2?

 

Is it possible to connect multiple shift registers in some way on MMjoy2?

 

So many questions but MMjoy2 looks like a great solution with much better capabilities than Leo Bodnar's board.

Edited July 11, 2017 by debolestis

[Sokol1_br]

Debolesis,

 

Despite I have a F22PRO and a Teensy board here, I dont have tried this.

 

Ask these questions for Mega_Mozg in SimHQ, they answers are a bit "enigmatic" (due lack of English) but help. :)

 

In MMjoy2 topic on War Thunder forum (Russian), a guy post scheme for make Shifters Register boards.

 

Look there and in the next pages.

 

https://forum.warthunder.ru/index.php?/topic/64234-mjoy-mjoy8-mjoy16-mmjoy/page-37

 

Since these shifters boards inside F16/F22/Cougar/Warthog have only the chip CD 4021 and PCB I think is easy replicate then.

[Sokol1_br]

What the guy say here maybe help with SPI connections to Arduino:

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/1790-there-any-better-joystick-ms-sidewinder-force-feedback-2/#entry46472

 

With the code there the guy combine the F16 register shifters with Suncom SFS matrix in one Arduino Teensy.

 

http://gerryk.com/node/45

Edited August 12, 2015 by Sokol1_br

[debolestis]

I think this is it:

 

 

SPI-CS goes to D3.

 

This is how it should be set-up in mmjoy2:

This is for Cobra M5, but it will probably be something simillar.

 

 

I'll try this in next few day and post results.

Edited July 11, 2017 by debolestis

[Sokol1_br]

In the il-2Sturmovik.ru are posted this images, for Cougar in MMjoy2:

 

Stick buttons

 

 

 

Throttle buttons

 

 

Picture with wires comming from Cougar grip and plugged in Arduino - but this are

over a extra PCB, for extra pins - so is not possible see for what pin (Arduino PRO MICRO).

 

[debolestis]

It works!!!

 

 

This is one of setups that I tried

 

 

There is a problem. Shift registers only work on version v20150626.

 

On all other I have this problem:

 

 

MMjoy2 sees all buttons as pressed. Bug probably.

 

Also I cannot figure out how shift function works. It works in a way, but also original button is pressed. Shift+button_1=button_1 and shifted button.

Edited July 11, 2017 by debolestis

[Sokol1_br]

This "Shift" (above Direct Input Viewer button) in MMjoy2 dont work like mode switch in some joysticks?

 

For what Mega_Mozg say in SimHQ you need change the wire connected to SPI-MISO (PIN B3) for SPI-MOSI (pin B2) for use the last firmware.

 

Update MMJOY2 [v20150701]

Because errors began to appear frequently incompatible SPI sensors (eg mcp3208 or TLE5010 / 5011) and the shift register (handle "Cobra M5" or "Thrustmaster") to change the connection of the shift registers to the controller.

Changed only one leg, before it was connected to the "SPI-MISO" is now in the "SPI-MOSI" - in this version the shift registers do not interfere with other SPI periphery.

Pictures "[shift_register] _DefenderCobraM5" and "[shift_register] _Thrustmaster Warthog_Cougar" corrected.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Sokol1_br

[debolestis]

FLCS works OK with MMjoy2. Shift registers work fine, yellow wire SPI-MISO must go to B3 MOSI for newer versions of firmware.

 

Gimbal mechanism is similar to CH gimbal but it is not as smooth. FLCS has gears between gimbal and pots and I think that it is a problem.

 

I have new idea now. I would like to make replaceable grips on CH gimbal that i upgraded with hall sensors, like Cougar, Warthog or Mamba. For that I need more shift register PCBs. I couldn't find any schematics. For now only way is to find another FLCS or F22.

 

Does anybody can has any shift register PCBs from old joysticks? We can trade I have Leo Bodnar's board that I don't use. I also have Cobra M5 that I don't use.

 

Are there any examples of DIY removable grips?