Model Scaling and Visibilty

[shagrat]

LOD = LevelOf Detail you may google for the technology explanation.

Basically, one pixel a dark gray pixel is rendered, two pixels a dark gray and a light gray is rendered... Ever flown IL-2 or Falcon BMS? You can see it there... And again, that so called advantage is already there just the other way round, use 4k (use DSR to upscale FullHD to 4k).

And by the way, what exactly would the better solution be?

You have one in mind, haven't you?

Or are you just trolling and ranting?

And you make it sound as if there were hundreds and thousands of Battlefield gamers invading the servers and killing you?!

[shagrat]

So to explain "my LOD": as long as the enemy plane is in visual range say 6nm for a fighter(?) you will get ONE dark gray pixel rendered, or better blended in with alpha values, until DCS normal LOD would render a dark gray pixel, anyway.

This would give everybody the same spotting distance, basically, not depending on resolution.

The "advantage" on 800x600 resolution would be a larger pixel, no more no less, but sacrificing FOV for that... What I would consider a mighty disadvantage.

[Wolf Rider]

6nm is about 11km... most seem to think 5 - 8 km (8km = 4.3nm) is max

 

you, I assume) do understand that LoD, is Level of Detail and it is set by insim distance... some sims have three levels, some 5 another (iirc) ran 10, and the further away the object is (determined by level) the less and less detail it has... which goes back to hardware/ technology

Edited April 21, 2015 by Wolf Rider

[shagrat]

Yep, right, what ever is reasonable. The idea is to render always a pixel at the same distance until the standard LOD of the model would render a pixel anyway.

[OnlyforDCS]

what really is wanted though, is solutions which don't give advantage to those who game the game?

 

I think you are really pushing it with this statement. People want better visibility for everyone and suddenly the request should be disregarded because somehow in your mind you have equated the method with cheating. Such arrogance. Thank god the poll results speak for themselves.

Edited April 21, 2015 by OnlyforDCS

[shagrat]

I think you are really pushing it with this statement. People want better visibility for everyone and suddenly the request should be disregarded because somehow in your mind you have equated the method with cheating. Such arrogance. Thank god the poll results speak for themselves.

In general he has a valid point. In theory people could reduce their resolution to 800x600 and get slightly bigger pixels to spot a plane... On the other hand somebody who currently has a HD resolution (720p) is at a disadvantage to someone with a FullHD resolution (1080p)! He simple wouldn't get a pixel rendered, whereas the FullHD guy could plainly spot him earlier.

So in WolfRider's logic every 1080p user would "cheat" on the "poor" 720p guy, as I would "cheat" on all 1080p guys with my 4k...

From my point if view,my proposal would better balance that disadvantage.

I'm not saying it is the "perfect solution", just a good compromise...

Edited April 21, 2015 by shagrat

[Wolf Rider]

@ Only for DCS...

actually... the "polls" don't really speak for anyone, except those who press the button in them, and so many haven't (and some might have a few goes at pressing the button)

 

I don't, or wouldn't express it in terms of "cheating"... god forbid that anyone would "cheat". "Cheating"?, never happens (sarcasm intended :) )

- there are quite a few who would take unfair advantage of flaws and limitations though...

 

 

I can see your point of view there Shagrat, really I can... but it is a proposition which does leaves things open to abuse (by those who would).

Seriously... you'd need everybody on the same size monitor, the same resolution and the same FoV. As soon as things become interchangeable, the problems become apparent

 

 

as they say; what people do on their own personal machine in their own home offline, is their business... knock yourselves out. The problem is fair play online - that's where the buzz, the competition is.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Wolf Rider

[shagrat]

Right, but that is the situation we have currently! Unless everybody has the same resolution, people with smaller resolutions can't see a plane unless it is much closer, than on the larger resolution, giving the FullHD or 4k guys an "unfair" advantage, by design.

Compared to "not seeing a plane" at all, I guess most people could live with some guy may "better see a plane".

The current implementation of LOD is more unfair, it seems to me?

[OnlyforDCS]

@ Only for DCS...

actually... the "polls" don't really speak for anyone, except those who press the button in them, and so many haven't (and some might have a few goes at pressing the button)

 

Yes, people are cheating everywhere, they love to cheat at DCS a hardcore niche simulation played by enthusiasts. They even cheat at an obscure forum poll so they can have systems built in place to allow for more cheating.

 

/sarcasm.

 

Seriously Wolf Rider, at this point you are just trolling. So how about you present a better solution to the ones proposed here, or you present a better argument for ignoring this poll or any visibility issues in the game.

[Wolf Rider]

and out comes the very old now cries of "troll"... I'm sorry OnlyforDCS, but if you don't like the opinions of those who don't agree with you, that is your problem... perhaps, a mirror could be held up to your cries?

 

if you bother to actually read through the thread, OnlyforDCS, and not just jump in on a knee jerk reaction... you may just gleen some insight to you question

[[DBS]TH0R]

You can ignore the poll as much as you like, the fact of the matter is people here voted in sufficient numbers to present large enough sample of voters i.e. what people would like out of their sim for which they paid money for.

 

As for your comment about reading the whole thread, seems to me you have been reading it from the beginning and still do not understand what was suggested here or what people want. And it was done over and over.

 

In short: a compromise for those with super high resolutions and those with less than latest hardware available. No one here asked for the ability to be able to cheat, and no one is asking for something unrealistic. We all provided some examples how it was done in other sims and how it could be done. At the end of the day we want a realistic compromise that enables us to spot targets at or near ranges as we would be able to in real life. There is no hidden agenda behind such wishes.

Edited April 21, 2015 by T}{OR
ignore instead of disregard

[Kuky]

Hard to spot at 10 miles?

 

10nm with label at normal zoom

 

10nm without label at normal zoom. Can you see anything? I can't..

 

10nm without label at full zoom. You can see something...

 

What do you expect to see at 10nm (18Km)? A small fighter aircraft, at front aspect (where it is hardest to see) 18Km is still way in BVR.

 

My honest opinion is that most of you guys exaggerate a lot, and I know most of you do not have propper FoV set for your monitor (it should match your real FoV the monitor spans in respect to your eye). To add to this, many talk how they can see far out, bla bla... well its easy to see something when you are 1) still, 2) know exactly where to look at, and even then you don't see it immediately, takes few seconds to look/scan and 3) you are not "searching" the sky (meaning short time glimpse on any specific area).

 

Have any of you seen video's of real dogfight training? Have you ever heard the pilot say "where did he go"? Doesn't that give you a clue that visual is indeed lost even when you are already in merge?

 

Anyway, I am a firm believer that scaling is the wrong way to go about it in my opinion. Instead, proper lighting effects, reflections, etc need to be added for far LOD's), but we'll see what ED will do (if they do something about it).

 

PS: I use 4K monitor and pixel size LOD's are not impossible to spot, IF you know exactly where to look at. And you can't have everything (FoV & Resolution) with PC like in real life, it will always be some trade off. Zooming in is cheating in my eyes (always has been) and scaling thing up won't be any different. But if it does happen, it'll be SAME for everyone... so unless you fly against AI, it won't matter, as every person will have same helper (you will see him better, but he will he see you also)

 

PPS: voted Totally unnecessary

Edited April 21, 2015 by Kuky

[shagrat]

Yep, in 4k you see the pixels, yet on 720p there is no pixel to see at the same distance! That is what people want fixed, nothing more...

[xaoslaad]

What do you expect to see at 10nm (18Km)? A small fighter aircraft, at front aspect (where it is hardest to see) 18Km is still way in BVR.

 

My honest opinion is that most of you guys exaggerate a lot, and I know most of you do not have propper FoV set for your monitor (it should match your real FoV the monitor spans in respect to your eye). To add to this, many talk how they can see far out, bla bla... well its easy to see something when you are 1) still, 2) know exactly where to look at, and even then you don't see it immediately, takes few seconds to look/scan and 3) you are not "searching" the sky (meaning short time glimpse on any specific area).

 

Have any of you seen video's of real dogfight training? Have you ever heard the pilot say "where did he go"? Doesn't that give you a clue that visual is indeed lost even when you are already in merge?

 

Anyway, I am a firm believer that scaling is the wrong way to go about it in my opinion. Instead, proper lighting effects, reflections, etc need to be added for far LOD's), but we'll see what ED will do (if they do something about it).

 

PS: I use 4K monitor and pixel size LOD's are not impossible to spot, IF you know exactly where to look at. And you can't have everything (FoV & Resolution) with PC like in real life, it will always be some trade off. Zooming in is cheating in my eyes (always has been) and scaling thing up won't be any different. But if it does happen, it'll be SAME for everyone... so unless you fly against AI, it won't matter, as every person will have same helper (you will see him better, but he will he see you also)

Its an an-26b, not a fighter in those screenshot. Something that many people here who claim to be pilots, air controllers, and whatever say should be visible at 10 miles.

[Kuky]

Its an an-26b, not a fighter in those screenshot. Something that many people here who claim to be pilots, air controllers, and whatever say should be visible at 10 miles.

 

not at all conditions

[SharpeXB]

You can ignore the poll as much as you like, the fact of the matter is people here voted in sufficient numbers to present large enough sample of voters i.e. what people would like out of their sim for which they paid money for.

But very few people have explained exactly what a solution might be. They keep saying "smart scaling" without a description of exactly what it is. So the request has such vague meaning how is it expected anyone will pay attention?

[Kuky]

Yep, in 4k you see the pixels, yet on 720p there is no pixel to see at the same distance! That is what people want fixed, nothing more...

 

who uses 720p these days?

 

Anyway, even with 1080p vs 4K 2160p... the same object size will be twice the number of pixels (if using same FoV). So 1 pixel on 1080P will be 2 pixels on 2160p.

 

One more thing we forget.. FSAA. In old days there was no FSAA, so especially with smaller resolutions, an object that needed to be shown would take up 1 pixel, large® in size then now, and due to no FSAA it would still out easily. Now do you want to trade good visuals and loose the FSAA to see these pixels stick out? I think not. So I say again, you can't have everything.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Kuky

[SharpeXB]

Zooming in is cheating in my eyes (always has been)

Please explain why. When in most cases, depending on your monitor size, zooming only makes objects, even your own cockpit 100% full size.

[shagrat]

Depends on the country you live in, or what Notebook you use, or how much money you can spend on tech.

Not everyone lives the same...

[Kuky]

Please explain why? When in most cases, depending on your monitor size, zooming only makes objects, even your own cockpit 100% full size.

Zooming in is a cheat because when people do it they get FoV way smaller than what their real FoV actually is... it is equivalent to using binoculars.

[shagrat]

I think I explained my proposal (what I consider 'smart scaling') in pretty much all detail, giving examples and the purpose.

I included advantages and disadvantages and how it would be a good compromise...

[shagrat]

Zooming in is a cheat because when people do it they get FoV way smaller than what their real FoV actually is... it is equivalent to using binoculars.

With the effect of loosing SA and looking through a straw, like real binos.

Son if a pilot would use binos it would be the same, not cheating?

[[DBS]TH0R]

But very few people have explained exactly what a solution might be. They keep saying "smart scaling" without a description of exactly what it is. So the request has such vague meaning how is it expected anyone will pay attention?

 

I suppose for that one ought to read the thread in question. And there was a plethora of suggestions and examples how it could be done. We are all open for suggestions, especially if a better solution comes.

 

 

who uses 720p these days?

 

I know several guys that use notebooks in absence of something better. But TBH for this sim you need something more powerful.

 

 

 

Zooming in is a cheat because when people do it they get FoV way smaller than what their real FoV actually is... it is equivalent to using binoculars.

 

And it renders things not normally visible under default FoV. Other sims feature the same thing, yet in DCS the ability to render things when fully zoomed in vs. out is by far the most drastic one. Could it have something to do with TGP modeling I wonder...?

[winz]

From an interview with a real A-10pilot on simhq

Erik: What issues do you have going from the simulator to the real plane? What are the differences or challenges there?

 

Captain Lanto: The challenges you know is probably just keeping the software on the simulators up-to-date – as we change a lot and it’s hard to mimic everything in the simulator that we do in the aircraft. Also, just the visuals really. When you think about it, I can see certain things from 15,000 feet with my naked eye up here but it’s very hard to replicate that on a computer screen where I may be able to see a truck driving along the road but on a computer screen … maybe not so much. Those are the kind of drawbacks that you have with a simulator but manipulating the HOTAS and switchology are exactly the same as in the jet.

If he has such problems with a full blown military simulator that is most likely projected on a big surface then I have hard time give credit to people that say that the dificulties of object spotting in sim are true to real life.

 

The problem is only exaggerated with the unrealistic situational awarness the AI possess.

[OnlyforDCS]

Zooming in is a cheat because when people do it they get FoV way smaller than what their real FoV actually is... it is equivalent to using binoculars.

 

Not everyone can afford a 4k display, and a comparable graphics card to run it. If the solution to the problem is simply "buy a 4k" then that should be stated on the DCS website clearly under recommended requirements:

 

"High resolution 4k monitor, recommended for WVR combat"

 

Or something along those lines.