The Ka-50 Black Shark thread

[GGTharos]

Here is a web page featuring the ABRIS, or at least, its civvie version:

 

http://avia.transas.com/eng/abris.htm

 

I don't know if there is a publically available manual without buying the instrument.

[AlexHunter]

Hi all!

 

While this question has been somewhat asked and somewhat answered, I will ask it in my own way in the hopes of getting a different answer.

 

My understanding of things is that information must be available to the public, or at least not classified, in order for a company like ED to realistically model some or all of the systems that make up the Black Shark. Assuming that I am correct, is it possible to access documents or manuals for aspects of the Black Shark, such as the ABRIS? I understand that ED cannot/will not release the manual for their sim, but there must exist manuals for the systems as they exist in real life. Are any of them available as a means to begin studying for when we see these systems in ED's Blackshark?

 

I would guess no, else they would have already been posted. However, if they do not exist in the public sphere, does ED have special agreements to gain access to the information?

 

Thanks guys!

 

This information, you will be able to know only from ED :), but part of information for them from an original source and that, on some systems they do not have information, it on the systems of defensive of helicopter and on some moments of the automated system for exchanges by information on aims friendly and hostile (as I understood), from after to their secrecy. Unnecessary secrecy of our soldiery does not stop to surprise me, there where it is not necessary vice versa.

[AlexHunter]

Yep ... something as simple as your exact flare timing (this is a fictional example) could give away the fact that you know plenty about the seeker of the given missile you defend against, which right away points to certain sources ... which you might wish not to reveal ...

(Flare timing/spacing can be important against IRH's because they use a rotating disc with clear and opaque patterns alternating at a specific rate to help them detect and track the target. If you screw up this timing, a false track correction can be generated - and this is what pulse jammers do too)

 

If I understood correctly, you talked about the system of identification of starting of rockets? And on all last made KA-50 this system costs, and principle of its work from point of physics is clear, only incomprehensible as there is a reflection of information about starting of rocket earth-air (on ABRIS or as that differently), as and what facilities of defensive it drives to the actions, were on works on the active systems of defensive except for Thermal Traps.While abstrusely all of subtleties there is nothing to invent, therefore as Andrey said, it will not be in "Black Shark".

[EvilBivol-1]

A few days a go, Chizh was asked about the complexity a "clickable" cockpit adds to the development process. Here is his reply, translated and slightly edited.

 

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In and of itself, an interactive cockpit is more complex than a non-interactive one specifically because of the ‘clickability’ function, which has to work properly in any camera position inside the cockpit. That, however, is not the main point.

 

In the Ka-50, we are modeling all of the main helicopter systems, which may not be apparent at first glance, but are present and functioning nevertheless.

 

I will not go into the AFM, as that could become lengthy. I’ll only say that, unlike all other helicopter sims, we are modeling real forces and moments exerted onto the rotor blades, from which in fact all of the dynamics evolve.

 

For the engines, the entire thermodynamic process and fuel system is modeled.

When adding power, the system adds fuel to the combustion chamber, raising the temperature and pressure in the chamber and increasing the force on the free turbine accordingly (this is a basic simplification, as everything is actually more complex). The fuel system is analogous to the real helicopter’s system, with two main and four optional external tanks, all of the fuel pumps and lines with their consumptions and pressures. Consequently, when taking damage to the fuel system, we achieve results as “IRL.”

 

The hydraulic system includes its own pumps, line circuit, accumulators and a set of mechanisms (control actuators, gear, cannon, etc), which utilize the system’s pressure. In case of pressure loss in any of the hydraulic systems due to failure or damage, it immediately affects the mechanisms in a natural fashion (the cannon ceases to move, control becomes increasingly difficult until full failure, etc).

 

The electric system also has its set of mechanisms connected to an appropriate bus.

 

The FCS functions as the real one, inputting commands onto the control surfaces. Control input logic is an entirely separate discussion.

 

The air gauge system has its own instrumentation for measuring pressure, local slip angles and angles of attack on the pitot tube. Flight data is calculated according to these measurements (which can be quite naturally inaccurate).

 

The Doppler speed and drift indicator (“DISS” in Russian) functions as a specialized radar emitting toward the surface and receiving the returns. It measures speed and drift according to Doppler shift and under large bank and pitch angles becomes inaccurate – everything as “IRL.”

 

The navigation system has its own gyro-stabilized platform (with accumulating error probability) and correction methodology implemented in the real aircraft (‘on the fly’ or via the targeting system).

 

The ABRIS is a ‘thing’ in and of itself, essentially an independent computer tied into the satellite navigation system and the air gauge system to calculate the helicopter’s position in space. Toward its functionality, we modeled GPS and GLONASS satellites with individual orbits and signal parameters. The helicopter’s satellite navigation system determines its coordinates according to the logic and error characteristics of the real system, because mathematical calculations of the real system are used.

 

Radio stations function on individual frequencies that can be adjusted. Also, all radio NAVAIDs on the map (beacons, transmitters) now utilize specific frequencies. Furthermore, the model accounts for signal strength/noise depending on distance from and power of the transmitter, as well as terrain masking.

 

For the fire extinguisher system, we plan on implementing a series of sensors that will monitor the temperature of various compartments and utilize the contents of the extinguisher tanks.

 

Whew…

This isn’t everything, of course. :)

I just wanted to say that a ‘clickable’ pit is like the tip of an iceberg, which is invisible to the user at first - until he begins to explore the nuances of the various systems, for the modeling of which we have committed a great deal of effort.

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[MBot]

Thanks for translating EB, very interesting.

 

What I wonder is if we will be able to use all those detailed radio systems. If these are so deeply modeled, will there actualy be someone talking with them ? Doesn't the Ka-50 have a special radio set for communication with ground forces ( or is that the Su-25 only ) ?

[Prophet]

Not sure about being able to communicate with ground forces, I would image you could IRL.

 

But there are a lot of radio functions that are used.

[MBot]

Do these radio functions mainly refere to radio-navigation or is there actualy talking involved ( meaning improvement to the comms ) ?

[GGTharos]

It's general purpose radio code.

[masterkey66]

little effort brings great satisfaction

 

I am a flight sim addicted person, I must recognize that.

I am addicted to Lock-On FC in particular.

There is a high probability that I will become addicted to Black Shark also.

Maybe for Cougar/X45/X52/X52 pro users that work with Track IR and also use microphones for in-game commands, ED could give a helping hand and put aside a track IR supporting profile (i own a saitek X52 Pro, saitek rudder pro peddals and Track Ir2) and detailed instruction on how to melt all the periphereals in order to acheive the immersion sensation to the fullest.

Imagine that lot of commands using free Microsoft SDK downloadable kit and recognition voice cound be transferred to microphone.

In the past I've managed to do this but for a short period of time and then lost the HD as I was flying Lock On with Saitek X45 Track IR2 and mic. All command to wingmen were transferred to voice and also some commands as cycling through the 5-6 battle modes (keyb. 1 to 6)

Thus freeing the buttons of the flight stick for other more usefull commands.

So apart the soft itself please supply some profiles.

As I suspect more commands will complicate the already saturated environment.

Thank you.

[TheProphet]

Just a quick question, I've just gone briefly on the BS gallery and found no pics of any new Apache model so I was wondering if we're going to have a new AH-64A/D model in BS, are we?

 

And a couple of other question that I think that no one really knows (or can tell us) about them, but I'll ask anyway:

1. I know that most of you guys are mainly flying online, but I do spend a good amout of my Lock On time offline, so I would like to know if we're going to see some "upgraded" airplanes AI.

 

2. I have read in these forums that ED is really focusing on the SAM scene in LOMAC, thus my question is, will WAFM for SAMs be implanted in BS?

 

I know that those quesiton have been answered and discussed before but I would like to know if something has changed since then.

 

Thanks, and excuse my english.

[MBot]

There will be a new Apache model in BS, as we have already seen it in one of the preview videos.

About the AI, it is expected that there will be a better helicopter specific AI in BS. I think this will be one of the centerpoints of 1.2 and I would love to hear more about it. This can make or brake the new sim. But ED is very tight lipped about AI and I don't think we will hear much about it until close to release. After all AI is one of those subjects you can always do better and spend more time on it, so ED will wait to show us the best they could manage to do.

 

 

On a different note, although not specific on the Ka-50, I would like to know if it is planed to work on the weapon damage effects. In FC the Su-25 has a large selection of bombs wich most realy don't make much difference. I haven't yet found reason to use napalm or FAE bombs, the RPK-250 will always give you the best bang for buck against every ground target exept structures.

I know this subect has also to do with the damage models of ground units as well. But since we will be able to select either HE or AP munitions for the Ka-50 cannon that ( hopefully ) will have different effects on targets, there might be a more complex damage system in place.

So will bombs like the ZAB-500 or ODAB-500 have a reason of existance in BS ?

[TheProphet]

Thanks for your reply, I now recall seeing the new Apache in BS vid that a russion guy made and brought to the English forum.

 

And what about the SAM WAFM? Does anybody knows something about it?

 

Black Shark sounds so good, can't wait.

[GGTharos]

Just a quick question, I've just gone briefly on the BS gallery and found no pics of any new Apache model so I was wondering if we're going to have a new AH-64A/D model in BS, are we?

 

And a couple of other question that I think that no one really knows (or can tell us) about them, but I'll ask anyway:

1. I know that most of you guys are mainly flying online, but I do spend a good amout of my Lock On time offline, so I would like to know if we're going to see some "upgraded" airplanes AI.

 

AI aircraft in BS have received some touch ups ... but remember, AI -is- and -always- will be dumb.

 

2. I have read in these forums that ED is really focusing on the SAM scene in LOMAC, thus my question is, will WAFM for SAMs be implanted in BS?

 

I know that those quesiton have been answered and discussed before but I would like to know if something has changed since then.

 

Thanks, and excuse my english.

 

 

Maybe. The inclusion of WAFM for AAMs and SAMs is conditional upon making other weapon WAFM's working first, and then having time to implement it for anti-air missiles.

[TheProphet]

"other weapons" mean gun bullets (such as airplanes onboard gun and Shilka, Vulcan etc), guided and unguided bombs and Air to Surface missiles?

 

Is the "other weapons" WAFM insured to be in BS and implantation of AAMs and SAMs WAFM will happen only of they will have enough time?

 

Thanks.

[GGTharos]

Something like that. By 'other weapons' yes, I mean guided and unguided A2G munitions, such as missiles, bombs and rockets. Right now, missiles are absolutely the hardest to do; and while there are plans to give WAFM to all weapons, not all might have it in BS.

 

I can tell you right away that -some- weapons are alread WAFMed and the kinks are being worked out.

 

AAMs and SAMs, are, unfortunately, last on the 'to do' list for WAFM because of the inherent difficulty. Also, WAFM won't solve 'everything' ... it will do some things for missile flight and missile flight ranges, as well as, potentnially, terminal guidance maneuvering ... but a big component of missile performance is guidance (and I don't mean terminal) for which there's no time to look at in BS, but it will be looked at in the next project, AFAIK.

[Rodgerdat]

So with that all said when is the release date?

[EvilBivol-1]

2007

[suntrace1]

A question: are tanks gonna pop-up smoke when being attacked, to cover themselves?

[Esac_mirmidon]

BETTER ЎЎЎ

 

Are tank crews gonna run out of the tank when they saw a Ka-50?

[OldFrankHog]

Lol that as got to hurt :doh:

 

Was that a joke though can a tank really fire on a moving helo ?

[GGTharos]

You're probably not going to be moving much when shooting... (and to answer your question? yes)

[enreisen]

One question for BS Developers. Imaging this situation

 

I´m flying with BS and atacking tanks or bmps in a city like Sochi :D

 

Well if i use the buildings like shield only one shot of the tank at a large building ( 20 stages) will do the building demolish and fire when thats imposible.

 

¿¿ Will ED developers do buildings stronger ??

[JimMack]

Buildings

 

One question for BS Developers. Imaging this situation

 

I´m flying with BS and atacking tanks or bmps in a city like Sochi :D

 

Well if i use the buildings like shield only one shot of the tank at a large building ( 20 stages) will do the building demolish and fire when thats imposible.

 

¿¿ Will ED developers do buildings stronger ??

 

Just done a test with Black Shark.

M1 Tank firing at range of 100m at a 10 storey block of flats. It took 9 rounds for the building to be destroyed. So I think that gives enough time for a Ka-50 to use the building for cover before moving on.

Also, recent experience in counter-insurgency indicates that it is not a good idea to stay in the hover, but move and jink.

 

Jim

[britgliderpilot]

Just done a test with Black Shark.

M1 Tank firing at range of 100m at a 10 storey block of flats. It took 9 rounds for the building to be destroyed. So I think that gives enough time for a Ka-50 to use the building for cover before moving on.

Also, recent experience in counter-insurgency indicates that it is not a good idea to stay in the hover, but move and jink.

 

Jim

 

Somewhere I've got a copy of some public US Army Helicopter battlestuff.

 

 

From what I remember, the general principle was to set up, take two shots, and then go find another place to hide . . . .

[MBot]

Somewhere I've got a copy of some public US Army Helicopter battlestuff.

 

 

From what I remember, the general principle was to set up, take two shots, and then go find another place to hide . . . .

 

Perhaps you were thinking about this:

 

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/1-112/fm1-112.pdf

 

 

Right, while US army helos will hang out on their battle positions long enough to spend all their ordinance, they will indeed change firing position after every two shots.