Avoiding AAA?

[Raven_Morpheus]

Hello

 

Wasn't sure which sub-forum to post this in so apologies if this is the wrong one...

 

 

Just wondering, probably a bit of a n00b question, but how do you avoid AAA (guns, SAMs etc.) when flying in the Ka-50 and Huey (particularly the Huey)?

 

I just played the Stray Eagle mission (for the nth time as it's the only one of the stock Huey single missions I like (I can't get up to the summit of Mt Elbrus quickly enough and I'm rubbish at strafing runs in the Huey). Just as I was approaching the LZ (probably about 30 secs or so away) my pilot and right door gunner got shot, ended up being inconsequential anyway as I crashed into the hill side (as usual, really can't master landings in the Huey!!).

 

However the above caused me to question how to avoid the AAA gun(s) that killed the pilot and right door gunner because I realised I have no idea how to?!

 

TIA

[kontiuka]

Well, in the Huey, going up against any radar guided air defence is pretty much suicide but even ZU-23s, BMDs, and BMPs are freaking deadly. Probably hugging the terrain and using it as cover is your best bet. Have flares on the ready in case some Igla gets you in his sights. If you're caught in the open, a lot of horizontal and vertical jinking helps. And don't fly too slowly.

[Highway]

I can't talk much about the Huey, but I can talk about the KA-50.

 

To answer your question, how do I avoid AAA in a KA-50? Like you do in any aircraft, with speed, maneuverability and terrain. However:

 

KA-50 is a sniper's tool. It is not a "go in guns blazing" close to the target kind of machine. It's not built to take punishment like an A10 or SU25 either. It's used best when at a distance.

 

Once you have found your targets, use the hover mode to get a good idea of what's out there and where everything is. Take your time and use your eyes to spot targets and identify what is what.

 

If you do get a "Warning - Under Attack" audio warning, don't hang about, get out of there fast, go back a couple of kms and start again and try to figure out what you missed.

 

You should be able to lock on to targets with Vikhr missiles around 7.2-7.5km away. That's far enough away from Strelas, Shilkas, BTRs to be out of their engagement zone. If you have to move forward, do it slowly. Again, take your time and use your eyes. Obviously use the Shkval, but don't solely use it. Always use HMS sight and turn on the Auto Turn button and Ground Target button.

 

If you are engaging tanks, T55s and T90s, they will be able to shoot missiles at you from around 5km, so keep that in mind when moving closer. Personally I would stay at 7km until everything in range that is a threat is dead.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Highway

[Frostie]

You shouldn't go against AAA in a Huey, if fired on drop altitude, hard move and increase speed to get out of there. In the mission Stray Eagle a good plan other than sitting and advancing slowly trying to find hidden enemies that you'll probably never find would be to buzz the landing zone a few times to see if any fire comes your way, they'll most likely be small arms which you can then put rockets on/strafe those positions on your next pass.

[Demongornot]

I'm not an expert in combat with helicopter and i might be wrong...

 

But my advises : for the Huey, you want to avoid most as possible every kind of AAA/heavy calibre and SAM, don't forget that this helicopter was first done for troop/supplies transporting on the battlefield and mainly armed for clearing the LA before dropping troops or evacuate them, he is a gunship but not made as combat helicopter unlike the AH-1, which is a modified Uh-1 made for fighting because it is not the primary goal of the Huey and even if they can be efficient they are not design for this !

So when you see something else than small calibre, try to avoid them or if you have no choice (for example a BMP) take them by surprise from their back while their turret point forward (away from you), it will give you a slight power, surprise and time advantage.

Don't forget to move, never hover in this situation !

 

For the Ka-50, this helicopter is mainly done for single pilot with a lot of piloting aid for you to focus on combat and the mission rather than piloting it, if their is only AAA, try to shoot them from long as possible, stay low but not too much and do a lot of manoeuvres and avoid to hover too much, even too far for AAA, main battle tank will be able to shoot you with 105/120 cannon !

So fear M1 Abram and M2 Bradley !

 

If their is SAM and/or a lot of units, say low and use the terrain to hide yourself :

 

 

Pop up like this, don't forget to trim to both make your nose point to the target (HDG assist, use it and not fight against it) and having a stable/safe hover close to the mountain !

If you see any AAA fire or missile launch, just get out of the Hover and hide by going down, don't forget to be low enough to avoid to expose your coaxial rotor !

Also don't forget that in this case AAA bullet will be ballistic, so they will come slightly from above cause of the angle, and missiles can sometimes goes up a lot before reaching you, so be careful for both case to not forget to dive deep enough behind the mountain, don't pop-up at the same spot, move far enough lateral in case of longer ETA for bullets/missile, it will be bad of you pop-up on a second bullet storm !

 

Don't forget that tree are not collidable yet so don't count of them to protect you !

Try it ! Hope it will help you !

[jib]

In reading books like Snake pilot they seem to often use a dedicated reconnaissance helicopter to escort the flight and there job is to spot ground targets (it also seems a very dangerous job!) they fly lower and take a lot more fire.

[Fri13]

 

If their is SAM and/or a lot of units, say low and use the terrain to hide yourself :

 

 

Pop up like this, don't forget to trim to both make your nose point to the target (HDG assist, use it and not fight against it) and having a stable/safe hover close to the mountain !

If you see any AAA fire or missile launch, just get out of the Hover and hide by going down, don't forget to be low enough to avoid to expose your coaxial rotor !

 

Don't forget that tree are not collidable yet so don't count of them to protect you !

Try it ! Hope it will help you !

 

Those doesn't work very well as AI will spot you from behind trees and engage you, fire at you.

 

That is my biggest wish for DCS World 2.0 that every tree will become collidable so every tree can block line of sight, radar, missile and some individual bullets.

As then whole gameplay will change as helicopters can really get closer, get to the cannon ranges and use rockets with correct attack patterns etc.

 

CAS missions becomes far more difficulty because spotting radar units or any unit anyways with thermal vision systems as enemy can be behind treeline.

 

And DCS:CA becomes far more interesting as every AA unit with radar needs to be well positioned to really get a data about sky.

 

Now nothing isn't so frustrating with helicopters than popping up behind a hill and AI turns around in second or two and fires first salvo before you even reacquire enemy positions or get lock-on.

Or that you can't get closer because there is no hills or large buildings to block LOS and your laser alarm just blinks when ever you are close enough to units max range.

 

It is interesting to see how things evolve in future IF current map gets small upgrade with the tree and AI algorithms, so no scripts are required to be used etc.

[Demongornot]

Those doesn't work very well as AI will spot you from behind trees and engage you, fire at you.

 

That is my biggest wish for DCS World 2.0 that every tree will become collidable so every tree can block line of sight, radar, missile and some individual bullets.

As then whole gameplay will change as helicopters can really get closer, get to the cannon ranges and use rockets with correct attack patterns etc.

 

CAS missions becomes far more difficulty because spotting radar units or any unit anyways with thermal vision systems as enemy can be behind treeline.

 

And DCS:CA becomes far more interesting as every AA unit with radar needs to be well positioned to really get a data about sky.

 

Now nothing isn't so frustrating with helicopters than popping up behind a hill and AI turns around in second or two and fires first salvo before you even reacquire enemy positions or get lock-on.

Or that you can't get closer because there is no hills or large buildings to block LOS and your laser alarm just blinks when ever you are close enough to units max range.

 

It is interesting to see how things evolve in future IF current map gets small upgrade with the tree and AI algorithms, so no scripts are required to be used etc.

 

The picture is just an example, i was explaining to popup from mountains, i know tree are lot collidable yet, but i wasn't able to find a picture of an helicopter poping up from a mountain (google image can't find anything correct except if you spend one hour looking for something after trying 3000 keyword and find what you look for with a completely illogical search keywords...Haha)

 

Base on how tree look in DCS World 2.0 Nevada video, i think they will be ONLY for newest map

Tree can't be made collidable now simply because they have wrong collision box compare to the 3D model and hit you well over their visual size...

 

For Nevada maybe, but i'm afraid of the Arma like effect where tree = wall of bricks...

Seriously the way you instantaneously explode in Arma just after gently and slowly touch a tree is horrible and kill every realism and immersion and stop me from wanting to play helicopter in this...

I hope ED will do a correct tree damage system, a lot of aircraft have already chop down top of tree without even having troubles sometimes :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9DFUqbdH_0

And best proof/example :

Take that Arma ! Right in your Teeth !

Please ED don't do wall brick tree if you make them collidables !

 

Even small and really fragile RC plane survive it :

 

So as i said, since Georgia map don't have collidable tree cause of hitbox only, i think ED won't make those new tree without give them proper hitbox this time, but will they correctly render damages...Not sure !

[PFunk1606688187]

TL: DR - Terrain masking works.*

 

 

 

* Within the understood limitations of DCS

[Raven_Morpheus]

Thanks guys, your advice is much appreciated.

 

I think the problems I was having on my ingress to the LZ in Stray Eagle were because I was following too close behind the 2 Cobra's, if I hang back a bit (i.e. lose sight of them just after take off) I don't encounter so much hassle, presumably because the Cobra's have done their job.

 

Different story on the way back to FARP Dallas though, I keep getting my ass shot to pieces following the return flight path marked on the kneeboard, I think I might be better off going back the way I came...

 

 

Doesn't seem to matter what I do to avoid it though, the AI seem to be crack shots and/or have magic heat seeking bullets! And if I try to be aggressive and go up/down/left/right a lot I tend to crash (or get into difficulty that is likely to lead to a crash, and usually does!). Also generally I'm doing ~100 knots IAS during general flight so it's not as though I'm cruising when I get hit!!

Edited March 10, 2015 by Raven_Morpheus

[Belgeode]

If this is the mission I think it is, here is how I beat it:

 

Gave ample time for the cobras to get far enough ahead. Prior to launch I made sure my door gunners were rocking miniguns, instead of assault rifles.

 

When I got to the town along the way to the hill, I did a lot of sideways maneuvering (jinking), and let the door gunners have free reign. They were able to knock off a few tangos, which made our egress with the pilot a lot more manageable.

 

Even so doing, on the way back the cobras still caught hell, and I believe one got shot down.

 

I made it back safely though... A few bullet holes, but everyone on board still alive.

 

Now I reckon I will need to go back out to get the downed Cobra pilot...

 

Sigh... my work is never done.

[Sandman1330]

I love that mission!

 

I always fly extremely low - aim for 5 ft on the radalt and 90-100 kts. Don't fly at 500-1000 like the Cobras, you'll regret it.

 

Approaching the LZ, fly fast and low, then flare off the speed into a run-on landing (make sure the skids are straight!!). On takeoff, transition straight forward into a 5ft altitude and get the heck out of there. On the way home, fly the general flight path but be low as possible and follow the low points of the terrain (valleys). This will minimize your exposure.

 

Finally, don't forget to set your gunners to return or free fire - those door gunners of yours are typical AI snipers and will work for you!

[BitMaster]

If your skids are still painted you were not low enough :joystick:

 

Bit

[WildBillKelsoe]

Is that mission having AH-1 as escorts? if so, you may need to open the mission editor and assign the AAA as targets for their hellfires.

 

Alternatively, just wait till AH-1W is released by belsimtek and be the man in charge of the whole operation.

 

Its really stupid that your own gunners and operator, which are AI can't detect targets for you and you have to rely on AI wingman most of the time. 6 useless eyes onboard.

[Panthir]

Regarding the initial question, how you could avoid AAA, I would like to say the following. Bullets are not missiles. Are not guided. So, for the shooter, by taking in account several parameters, will have to aim and shoot in that direction that he assess that the target will be when the bullet will arrive there.

For stationary or incoming targets, critical parameters such as, angular speed, speed vector, distance etc, that affect the aiming point the most, are almost or near to zero, by making shooters life easier.

For targets that are moving in such a way that they maximize the projection of their relative angular speed vector to the shooter (by beaming), affecting the position of their future collision point with the bullet, the job of the shooter is getting very difficult, even if the AAA is radar guided.

We are very lucky that in DCS you can easily and always detect the tracers right after leaving the gun barrel. So, whenever you detect tracers, turn immediately and place the shooter initially 3-9. While turning, try to assess the flying time of the bullet (the time it takes to reach you) and change your flying level (decend or climb), not to much 5 to 10 deg. Then place the shooter 4-8 while always changing modifying your speed vector (change altitude, descending or climbing), at least every "x" seconds, where "x" is the estimated time of flight of the bullet or whenever you see the tracer leaving the AAA unit.

In this way, you will fly out of the range of every AAA in a while.

For slow moving targets, such as helos, it is more difficult, to face AAA, as far as their speed vector is small. Even if they can turn immediately, they are almost stationary during the turn. So, when a helo detects tracers and the tracers have already travelled the half distance, most probably, it will take a hit.

It is important for helos to react immediately when they detect tracers. Especially, DCS helos, that don’t have rover to detect Shilkas and Vulcans that are more lethal, as far as they are more precise and faster in aim point calculation.

Concluding, as soon as you detect traces, descend or climb, assess bullet flying time and set tracers immediately 3-9 and then 4-8 trying to leave AAA’s lethal zone, by changing your flying level (applying small descends or climbs) every at least “X” seconds, where “X” is the time flight of the bullet or whenever you detect tracers leaving the gun barrel.

When you face Vulcans or Shilkas, reduce your reaction time.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Panthir