MiG-21 exhaust smoke

[Sleksa]

Unsure whether to report this under the bug section, but anyway, the have doughnut report from 1969 (found here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/eyh14uxc89acs4j/AAA_hvGC0C9A_OyO23mQEMSua?dl=0#/ ) reports that the MiG's engines during testing did not produce a visible exhaust trail at any power setting.

 

 

However in dcs the smoke trail is quite visible even 20+ km away like on the middle right side of this picture:

 

 

Or from behind like this:

 

In similiar fashion these videos of mig-21 in flight show that the engine exhaust is really hard to see even from close up, and certainly nowhere near the telltale mark from dozens of miles away present in dcs currently:

 

 

 

Edited May 3, 2015 by Sleksa

[pepin1234]

Thank you to open this important thread.

 

Yesterday I was flying and now the new tactic of the F-15 pilots is radar off and search you by visual contact smoke.

 

The F-15 have not EOS, so they have not way to search in passive mode.

 

Suddenly ED bring us this smoke that give a really unrealistic way to search the opponent visually at more than 30 km.

 

COME ON!!!

[Buzzles]

Could be the different engines?

 

The aircraft in the Have Doughnut report is an MiG-21F-13, the report says it's fitted with an R-11F-300 (R-37F), which is an engine from ~1956.

 

The Bis we have has a much later engine (R25-300, from 1971), which is two years after that report came out in 1969, and also an further developed engine (Mig's go from R11->R13->R25 iirc).

Edited May 3, 2015 by Buzzles

[pepin1234]

Could be the different engines?

 

The aircraft in the Have Doughnut report is an early Mig21-F, probably with an early R-11 engine.

 

The Bis we have has a much later engine (R25-300, from 1971), which is two years after that report came out in 1969.

 

 

Did you see the videos mate??

[Sleksa]

Could be the different engines?

 

The aircraft in the Have Doughnut report is an MiG-21F-13, probably with an R-11 engine.

 

The Bis we have has a much later engine (R25-300, from 1971), which is two years after that report came out in 1969.

 

This is an argument that came to my mind as well, however since the Bis is a newer version, I see no reason why they would've gone and removed/not used this feature from the newer engines as well.

 

And the exhaust trails from the Bis-version of the mig in the videos attached aren't really visible even when the aircraft is flying really close by unless you really focus on trying to see them.

[ANFelipe]

 

Unsure whether to report this under the bug section, but anyway, the have doughnut report from 1969 (found here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/eyh14uxc89acs4j/AAA_hvGC0C9A_OyO23mQEMSua?dl=0#/ ) reports that the MiG's engines during testing did not produce a visible exhaust trail at any power setting.

 

 

However in dcs the smoke trail is quite visible even 20+ km away like on the middle right side of this picture:

 

 

Or from behind like this:

 

In similiar fashion these videos of mig-21 in flight show that the engine exhaust is really hard to see even from close up, and certainly nowhere near the telltale mark from dozens of miles away present in dcs currently:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ill post the same argument than you, and i want to ask ED why we have this kind of smoke trail, this is so unrealistic thing... just watch a milion videos on YouTube and you'll realise that is unacurate...

 

Cmon guys, lets move it up and fix the thing! :thumbup:

[pepin1234]

This is the best passive "radar" for the US fighters into DCS. The incoming F-18 must see the RU smoke as far as possible...

[Esac_mirmidon]

5:20 and 7:40

 

Croation Mig-21 BIS at Full Throttle in a Go Around and Landing.

 

 

3:50

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbta2MBkvNA

Edited May 4, 2015 by Esac_mirmidon

[ANFelipe]

this is a lighten and smooth smoke, nothing compared what we have in DCS MiG mate... almost cant see that smoke at higher distances...

[Esac_mirmidon]

From no smoke at all to more or less smoke is a little step forward.

 

As you can see there is smoke at high RPM motor settings like a Go Around and landing pattern. The smoke could be more or less visible taking in count different conditions.

 

If there is room to improve how the smoke is visible in DCS time will tell.

 

IMHO there are no such big difference at all between DCS and real life. Even more, i find it pretty the same, almost exact.

 

No mods, no Photoshop, just raw in game pic at 100 RPM.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2015 by Esac_mirmidon

[cro_mig_21]

It is quite a different effect on how the smoke looks on videos and in real life..I have the fortune to see the MiGs fly almost daily since I work near the airbase and I must say they do leave noticeable smoke trail. My opinion is that it is simulated quite well.

 

Cheers!

[Sleksa]

From no smoke at all to more or less smoke is a little step forward.

 

As you can see there is smoke at high RPM motor settings like a Go Around and landing pattern. The smoke could be more or less visible taking in count different conditions.

 

If there is room to improve how the smoke is visible in DCS time will tell.

 

IMHO there are no such big difference at all between DCS and real life. Even more, i find it pretty the same, almost exact.

 

No mods, no Photoshop, just raw in game pic at 100 RPM.

 

 

 

 

 

The difference is in the distance and aspect. At quite close ranges and forward aspect the smoke trail isn't readily visible as your pictures as well as these examples show

 

 

 

 

 

 

However when we add distance or look at the mig from the rear, it becomes possible to see the mig's exhaust trail from 20-100km with relative ease, and I doubt this is the case in real life:

 

 

 

 

 

[Aginor]

I think the problem is the LOD of the smoke. From rather close it looks like in the videos of MiG-21s flying. From far away it is exaggerated.

[pepin1234]

Let's see.

 

I see some people are coming here to misunderstand the thread. The first post of this thread is very clear showing a Mig at more than 25 km. Nobody is talking about takeoff an go around flight. If you are close of course you should see some smoke.

 

The thread is about the opponent can see a Mig at more than 30 km. completely unrealistic!

 

As I said before... Yesterday I was flying and F-15 pilots from less than 50 km they are switching off the radar and killing the RU fighter by WVR launch. That must change... This smoke of a fighter at long distances are unreal.

Edited May 4, 2015 by pepin1234

[Esac_mirmidon]

So it seems that the problem is the smoke's LOD, not the smoke itself. Finally we are reaching a point of agreement on this.

[Sleksa]

So it seems that the problem is the smoke's LOD, not the smoke itself. Finally we are reaching a point of agreement on this.

 

The visibility at distance is the most significant problem yes.

 

However the original post also included the US evaluation of the defected Iraqi mig-21 which quite clearly stated that the plane wasn't producing a detectable smoketrail at page 1-46

 

[Esac_mirmidon]

1969.

 

Not the same 21, not the same engine. Read again cro mig 21 post. Quite interesting.

[iLOVEwindmills]

It's probably also partly the issue that you cannot see the plane itself, only the smoke. Smoke would just be an issue with increased or decreased visibility.

 

Now it turns you from a situation where you would normally be completely invisible, to visible for an attentive player.

[Sleksa]

1969.

 

Not the same 21, not the same engine. Read again cro mig 21 post. Quite interesting.

 

Yes, and I'd wholeheartedly support the argument if the mig-21 in the report was a newer version than the bis, however it is not. It simply seems odd to assume that upon making a newer and improved version of the aircraft, the soviets had purposefully gotten rid of a feature that was obviously rather valuable in the aircraft and had been in use already on the the mig-17.

 

The smoke that is also sometimes seen on the aircraft in real life footage of the aircraft is also considerably harder to spot than the aircraft producing it, however in dcs this is opposite like iLOVEwindmills pointed out. It's absurd that the smoke itself is easier to find when distance to the mig goes beyond 2-3 miles and to me sounds even more absurd that this would be the case in real life as well

 

It might also be possible that the smoke trail's visibility is affected by things like meteoroloical conditions, engine age/ maintenance, fuel quality and other such factors, however in dcs the smoke generated by the mig-21 is a non-changing value and it uses the same value as every other aircraft in the game (excluding the huey).

[Esac_mirmidon]

People that are seeing the Bis in real life flying are telling the Mig´s engine smokes.

 

Videos from real Mig-21Bis shows that smokes.

 

Another very good example. From 5:40

 

 

The problem isn´t if the engine smokes or not. The problem is the DCS engine smoke at distance. And i agree, there is room to improve it.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Esac_mirmidon

[shagrat]

I personally think, this is a problem with people that never flew in a Mig-21Bis telling the development team of Leatherneck Sims ( of which one guy is a former Mig-21 pilot?) how to change the Might in a way, they stand a better chance in fights?

Next we have Videos showing flybys on airshows... No videos showing a Mig-21bis from another airplane at 20k feet... We have no idea about throttle/burner settings etc.

 

In real life the F-15 wouldn't deactivate their radar, as well, as a single flight of Mig-21bis won't engage a flight of F-15 head on at 10k plus! If at all.

So I would prefer, before "tweaking" the Sim to bad tactics, we should keep realism as much as possible.

The Mig-21 was designed as a short range, high speed interceptor guided by GCI.

So the realistic tactics against enemy fighters would be to disengage radar, stay low until at the enemies six and pop up, activate radar shoot and dive back to the deck... Against F-15C you may consider a two or three to one advantage, at least unless you really think it is realistic to go against a far superior fighter with a head on bulls run.

 

I don't mean any disrespect, but the discussion does not consider tactics in the first place.

It seems to focus balancing a fight between Mig-21s and F-15Cs.

And that is a pretty bad idea,as there is no balance between the two airplanes.

 

It is the tactics, that are important to change the odds and the ability to make the enemy abide by them.

Edited May 4, 2015 by shagrat

[ANFelipe]

All of us have to agree, LN MiG-21bis have an impressive and almost perfect modelation its awesome.

 

;)

[Esac_mirmidon]

I'm talking about visuals, not tactics.

[shagrat]

I still think if somebody should decide on different visuals, it should be LNs MiG Pilot as he seems pretty much qualified to judge the amount if smoke the plane he knows inside out is producing, opposed to some YouTube videos?

Just my personal opinion, though.

It might be you are barking up the wrong tree when asking ED to change the smoke for LNs Mig-21bis.

I would politely ask Cobra to query their pilot if he considers the current smoke realistic or overdone.

If he decides it should be tweaked, then LN will sure look into it?

[Esac_mirmidon]

Uhhh ?

 

Have you readed the whole topic?

 

I'm very comfortable with the actual engine smoke visuals. You're hitting the wrong target. Or tree.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Esac_mirmidon