Fish Posted May 9, 2006 Posted May 9, 2006 Just read a review of this card, and how it is being used in FPS games, eg GRAW. It appears to help with making the 3d environment more realistic by handling things like particle dynamics, and object interactions. This is very pertinent in discruction, and explosions, where there are many objects and 'sub' objects interacting with the environment, and in collision with it. Im wondering then, apart from explosions, if you would be useful for flight sims, or if its use in explosions would justify it being implemented. ? Fish's Flight Sim Videos [sIGPIC]I13700k, RTX4090, 64gb ram @ 3600, superUltraWide 5120x1440, 2560x1440, 1920x1080, Warthog, Tusba TQS, Reverb VR1000, Pico 4, Wifi6 router, 360/36 internet[/sIGPIC]
britgliderpilot Posted May 9, 2006 Posted May 9, 2006 Just read a review of this card, and how it is being used in FPS games, eg GRAW. It appears to help with making the 3d environment more realistic by handling things like particle dynamics, and object interactions. This is very pertinent in discruction, and explosions, where there are many objects and 'sub' objects interacting with the environment, and in collision with it. Im wondering then, apart from explosions, if you would be useful for flight sims, or if its use in explosions would justify it being implemented. ? Yeah, could potentially be of great use to us . . . . . . IF the code was written to take advantage of it. That's ED's decision to make - whether it's going to be worth the effort for the reward that the people with physics cards are going to get. How much are the first physics cards coming out at, price-wise? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v121/britgliderpilot/BS2Britgliderpilot-1.jpg
S77th-konkussion Posted May 9, 2006 Posted May 9, 2006 It's a $360 add on at www.velocitymicro.com (128mb) Apparently- not for use with certain sound cards.. [sIGPIC]http://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=43337&d=1287169113[/sIGPIC]
ARM505 Posted May 9, 2006 Posted May 9, 2006 Having just got GRAW (a frustrating game if ever there was one) I read some tweak guides since I couldn't get anti-aliasing to work (turns out it doesn't, and never will in GRAW). In one of them they mentioned that frame rates would actually DROP with the physics card! The theory went something like this: More pieces of debris etc would be allowed and calculated for, BUT these objects would then have to be displayed: therefore extra work load for the gfx card! Doh! And it's not like GRAW isn't a crushing system hog as it is - it's harder to get playable fps in that than in Lock On! All it seems to do is relieve the CPU of some newtonian physics type calculations - I'm not really sure how much a flight sim could make use of it, unless you want to blow up buildings brick by brick. But what developer is going to code that level of detail?
D-Scythe Posted May 9, 2006 Posted May 9, 2006 All it seems to do is relieve the CPU of some newtonian physics type calculations - I'm not really sure how much a flight sim could make use of it, unless you want to blow up buildings brick by brick. But what developer is going to code that level of detail? A combat flight sim can do many things with a physics card. For example, it would definitely help with the radar calculations, both the player's and AI (no more super-aware AI), line-of-sight calculations for missiles and AI, damage modelling, etc. Basically, any kind of advanced flight model (especially when damaged) or advanced seeker model could potentially benefit from such a physics PU.
Force_Feedback Posted May 9, 2006 Posted May 9, 2006 If it will, "lock on 2" will not even be able to show decent fps for 10 years after its release :P Creedence Clearwater Revival:worthy:
wsoul2k Posted May 9, 2006 Posted May 9, 2006 Ageia PhysX will have a HARD time ...the GFX producers already have stated they will get in the phisics also.....in the very near future gfx will be dual core or have a dual GPU...and ATI already stated that EXTRA cpu will be used to optimize phicis....unfortuley i cant find the link any more... Rodrigo Monteiro LOCKON 1.12 AMD 3.8 X2 64 2G DDR ATI X1800XT 512 SAITEK X-36 AND VERY SOON TRACKIR-4
Crusty Posted May 9, 2006 Posted May 9, 2006 surely dual core cpu will be far a better route, developers can offload physics or any chosen set of computations to the second core, much more flexible than a dedicated physics card, the second core could get used by all sorts of stuff, depending on what the developer/coder wants oo err...missus:animals_bunny: ** Anti-Pastie**
GGTharos Posted May 9, 2006 Posted May 9, 2006 When -most- computers come equipped with one, or when -most- gamers end up buying one, then it will make sense to code for it. Otherwise ... waste of time. Also I'm not sure that it actually can help with anything but newtonian physics...I'm not so certain that LOS calculations (for one) are part of its repertoire ... what I saw of the demo (Which may not show -everything-) it's used to offload a lot of calculations for small things and thus allow you to have shrapnel etc. that will actually hit and damage other things. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
SUBS17 Posted May 9, 2006 Posted May 9, 2006 Can also use it for an aircrafts flight model eg AFM to beyond AFM by calculating the aircrafts FM using air particles etc. So far its too expensive but when it comes down in price it might be worthwhile getting(so long as its programmed in flight sims that I use). It would probably boost FPS as more resources would be available to the CPU. [sIGPIC] [/sIGPIC]
GGTharos Posted May 9, 2006 Posted May 9, 2006 Can also use it for an aircrafts flight model eg AFM to beyond AFM by calculating the aircrafts FM using air particles etc. Um ... no. With all due respect, you don't have a clue. That would be a very bad idea ;) (Speaking from experience in helping write a particle sim) As fort he FM, I don't know - see here, the -trick- is that you get certian functions in the chip that work in a certain way, and they might not like some methods of computation. On the other hand, it might work pretty well in which case ... ;) So far its too expensive but when it comes down in price it might be worthwhile getting(so long as its programmed in flight sims that I use). It would probably boost FPS as more resources would be available to the CPU. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Roman G Posted May 10, 2006 Posted May 10, 2006 When -most- computers come equipped with one, or when -most- gamers end up buying one, then it will make sense to code for it. Otherwise ... waste of time. ... I don't think it would be waste of time even if there are no cards in use currently. If ED use the AGEIA Physics SDK then CPU would be used for physics calculation on hardware without the AGEIA card. Once people buy cards then they will get more "physics-candy". It is basically the same idea as behind OpenGL or DirectX. When there were no 3d cards then the OpenGL/DirectX driver was running in software-emulation mode. Once you plug the 3d video card in then things will get accelerated. Using SDK by the way allows you to get better graphics without changing any game code - just by buying better graphics card. I remember that after owning Quake 2 for quite a time it suddenly become a whole new game for me when I bought my first 3D card - TNT2 Viper. The same think will hapen to Lomac if they use Physics SDK. You will get "CPU physics" now. Later on you can get hardware accelerated physics when you buy physics card. The only risk ED would take when using AGEIA Physics SDK is risk of AGEIA going out of business. But that seems unlikely since Unreal Engine and SDKs for PlayStation 3 is going to support it ...
Weta43 Posted May 10, 2006 Posted May 10, 2006 If you can offload work from the CPU to the card it's got to give you more freeboard on the CPU - which in a flight simulator (where as mentioned there are a lot of physical interactions to work out) could well mean more FPS - provided that developers don't get carried away throwing more things to calculate into the game. If there is a lesson in the GRAW thing it is that developers will be tempted to use that freeboard to add more detail, & you won't have higher FPS, just more happening on the screen. Cheers.
GGTharos Posted May 10, 2006 Posted May 10, 2006 I remember that after owning Quake 2 for quite a time it suddenly become a whole new game for me when I bought my first 3D card - TNT2 Viper. The same think will hapen to Lomac if they use Physics SDK. You will get "CPU physics" now. Later on you can get hardware accelerated physics when you buy physics card. The only risk ED would take when using AGEIA Physics SDK is risk of AGEIA going out of business. But that seems unlikely since Unreal Engine and SDKs for PlayStation 3 is going to support it ... The risk is that they will blow time/money on the the Physics chip and then people won't buy the card. Once it becomes more prolific -then- it will be the right time to do this. Until then, FPS's which have significantly larger budgets can afford to try and take the risk of the cards being a commercial dud. So yeah, until then ... waste of time when they can be doing something else instead. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
4c Hajduk Veljko Posted May 10, 2006 Posted May 10, 2006 Once it becomes more prolific -then- it will be the right time to do this.So, SUBS17 "did have a clue" after all! Thermaltake Kandalf LCS | Gigabyte GA-X58A-UD3R | Etasis ET750 (850W Max) | i7-920 OC to 4.0 GHz | Gigabyte HD5850 | OCZ Gold 6GB DDR3 2000 | 2 X 30GB OCZ Vertex SSD in RAID 0 | ASUS VW266H 25.5" | LG Blue Ray 10X burner | TIR 5 | Saitek X-52 Pro | Logitech G930 | Saitek Pro flight rudder pedals | Windows 7 Home Premium 64 bit
Force_Feedback Posted May 10, 2006 Posted May 10, 2006 The risk is that they will blow time/money on the the Physics chip and then people won't buy the card. Once it becomes more prolific -then- it will be the right time to do this. Until then, FPS's which have significantly larger budgets can afford to try and take the risk of the cards being a commercial dud. So yeah, until then ... waste of time when they can be doing something else instead. Yes, that is so true, because PSUs (or their addition to GPUs/VGA cards) are in their first steps of development, so until the "big ones" will start making PSU-equipped units, it won't make any sense in doing all the coding that may be inefficient after a few months, or even worse, incompatible with the standards. It's like developing an engine for a car that will come out in 20 years, how good you try, the engine will always be obsolete by then. Creedence Clearwater Revival:worthy:
Dmut Posted May 10, 2006 Posted May 10, 2006 I just want to add, that PhysX is mostly targeted to produce "visual effects physics", not to do math of real-world physics. It mostly used to increase number of trashes and pieces of exploded units, and for similar visual effects. you may check review with screenshots and comparison here http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTA1MiwxLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA== (link found on simhq.com) so I don't think we will use this kind of "physics accelerator" in near future. btw, microsoft (as well as nVidia and ATI) is already announced their own "physics API" to be included in directX 10. "There are five dangerous faults which may affect a general: recklessness, which leads to destruction; cowardice, which leads to capture; a hasty temper, which can be provoked by insults; a delicacy of honor which is sensitive to shame; over-solicitude for his men, which exposes him to worry and trouble." Sun Tzu [sigpic]http://forums.eagle.ru/signaturepics/sigpic2354_5.gif[/sigpic]
ED Team Groove Posted May 10, 2006 ED Team Posted May 10, 2006 This card will disappear faster from the market than you can think :D Our Forum Rules: http://forums.eagle.ru/rules.php#en
Pilotasso Posted May 10, 2006 Posted May 10, 2006 ...And I dont think this is any different from what These cards have been promising us for several years with T&L. .
RogueRunner Posted May 10, 2006 Posted May 10, 2006 Same price as a topend vid card! There is easier (read cheaper) ways to get higher fps performance ;) With the price of ammunition these days do not expect a warning shot.
GGTharos Posted May 10, 2006 Posted May 10, 2006 So, SUBS17 "did have a clue" after all! About particle simulation for aerodynamics? No, he didn't. Also see Dmut's response. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
wsoul2k Posted May 10, 2006 Posted May 10, 2006 Humm...i cant rememeber..but im preaty sure i have read it can calculate FLUIDS phisics also....so we can have now our water in a tunderstorn condition in the near future ( 5 years ) :) The things will grow fast when the big ones (ATI ,NVIDIA) get theyr products to the market... just my 2 cents Rodrigo Monteiro LOCKON 1.12 AMD 3.8 X2 64 2G DDR ATI X1800XT 512 SAITEK X-36 AND VERY SOON TRACKIR-4
Shaman Posted May 10, 2006 Posted May 10, 2006 I'll get PhysX card just to play Callfactor! 51PVO Founding member (DEC2007-) 100KIAP Founding member (DEC2018-) :: Shaman aka [100☭] Shamansky tail# 44 or 444 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] 100KIAP Regiment Early Warning & Control officer
SUBS17 Posted May 10, 2006 Posted May 10, 2006 About particle simulation for aerodynamics? No, he didn't. Also see Dmut's response. This sounds interesting PhysX is ahead of Havok FX in what it can accelerate. The PhysX PPU is able to process more than just large-scale collision or 'effects' physics via its API. There's support for limited fluid dynamics simulations, vehicles (wheel, torque and tire simulation), object raycasting and more, which the PPU can fully or partly accelerate, with Ageia moving more onto the hardware as time goes by [sIGPIC] [/sIGPIC]
SUBS17 Posted May 10, 2006 Posted May 10, 2006 Perhaps another use for it could be to allow a dynamic campaign to run with much larger numbers of objects in the players area. Theres quite a few aspects of jet combat something like this could be used for but I'd wait until it comes down in price and there are games that I use that make use of its features. [sIGPIC] [/sIGPIC]
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