No Launch or Lock Warning from a Tunguska?

[Ultra]

I got shot down twice today by a SA-19 (Tunguska, right?). :(

I thought it was firing heat seekers, but then I checked and it killed me with 9M311 semi-active radar missiles both times. I didn't get a lock or launch warning either time. I thought the RWR should give a warning for this type of missile? :huh:

 

(I did have a ALQ-131 pod turned on, if that makes a difference)

Edited May 31, 2015 by Ultra

[whitehot]

I got shot down twice today by a SA-19 (Tunguska, right?). :(

I thought it was firing heat seekers, but then I checked and it killed me with 9M311 semi-active radar missiles both times. I didn't get a lock or launch warning either time. I thought the RWR should give a warning for this type of missile? :huh:

 

(I did have a ALQ-131 pod turned on, if that makes a difference)

 

I'm not sure about it, but I read somewhere that the tung missiles have a sort of C-LOS tracking system which allows them to be directed without radar guidance.

 

I would surmise it's something like the vikhr guidance, with an auto-tracker guiding the missiles over optical/IR channel. Since missiles are the "backup" weapon on that system, the designers probably accepted to have a missile with not a very high pK against maneuvering targets, yet remaining very dangerous to slow movers, especially helicopters - although an A-10 coming straight at it would be in danger also.

Edited May 31, 2015 by whitehot
grammar

[Ultra]

Interesting, I wonder if it's modeled in the sim.

[Ragequits]

Yes the Tunguska uses the SACLOS guidance system. Thats why the F-15C doesn't get a launch warning. If you are in a A-10 you get one....most of the time.

[pepin1234]

I got shot down twice today by a SA-19 (Tunguska, right?). :(

I thought it was firing heat seekers, but then I checked and it killed me with 9M311 semi-active radar missiles both times. I didn't get a lock or launch warning either time. I thought the RWR should give a warning for this type of missile? :huh:

 

(I did have a ALQ-131 pod turned on, if that makes a difference)

 

Thats not all.

 

The Sborka radar unit we have in DCS is not implemented yet. But in the RL you should see in your RWR only de Sborka and Tunguska should receive the data-link radar data from Sborka. So you never know where is it and how far is it.

 

Is understanding that this level of Air defense is too much for only the A-10 attack flyable unit from blue side, so after the F-18 release, all the Red air-defense should be a step ahead in simulation features. But we should wait to see what ED think to do with the red air-defenses

[Ultra]

That's interesting, do chaff or flares help against it? Or do you just have to dodge it?

[Ultra]

Thats not all.

 

The Sborka radar unit we have in DCS is not implemented yet. But in the RL you should see in your RWR only de Sborka and Tunguska should receive the data-link radar data from Sborka. So you never know where is it and how far is it.

 

Is understanding that this level of Air defense is too much for only the A-10 attack flyable unit from blue side, so after the F-18 release, all the Red air-defense should be a step ahead in simulation features. But we should wait to see what ED think to do with the red air-defenses

 

It's not getting any easier! :punch:

[pepin1234]

That's interesting, do chaff or flares help against it? Or do you just have to dodge it?

 

you should have a buddy covering you flying behind. that's gone help

Edited June 9, 2015 by pepin1234

[BinaryMan]

It is possible to dodge the tunguska missile but not very practical. I think its done by turning into the missile at the last second. It important to know that at best its going to miss you by a couple of feet. There is some old adage that goes something like "practice like you're going to fight".

 

There is no launch warning.

If you see a sa-19 you are best off by running away. If you have to engage targets guarded by it you are best off trying to scan for it with a maverick and launch the missile at it. In my experience dealing with the tunguska is hard. If you manage to get close to it, you still have to worry about its guns.

[Ultra]

Got it.

Step 1: Avoid Tunguska

Step 2: See step 1

 

:D

[BinaryMan]

Totally doable just completely crazy

A10AvsSA19.trk

Edited June 1, 2015 by BinaryMan

[Ultra]

Your video didn't embed correctly, or I'm just getting an error.

[BinaryMan]

Fixed

[Ultra]

Nice dodging!

Unfortunately I never knew where my attacker was. :cry:

[Fri13]

That's interesting, do chaff or flares help against it? Or do you just have to dodge it?

Optically targeted missiles via radio link so you can't counter missiles. But it ain't either easy to hit a maneuvering aircraft as you need to keep it on needle as gunner.

 

Most soviet AA missiles can be guided in optically tracking the target so you don't get any RWR warnings, then at the terminal phase the semiactive radar head can be turned on if target starts maneuver to get it easy for SAM, but at that moment the pilot has any more just few seconds and usually it is better to use to eject.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Fri13

[Boberro]

Also GheyTens are very slow thus quite easy target (for AI)

 

For human controlled Tunguska it is very delicious prey because controlling target designator in Tunguska is poorly modeled so far - we have to wait for upgrade, example CA 1.5 I think.

[whitehot]

Optically targeted missiles via radio link so you can't counter missiles. But it ain't either easy to hit a maneuvering aircraft as you need to keep it on needle as gunner.

 

Most soviet AA missiles can be guided in optically tracking the target so you don't get any RWR warnings, then at the terminal phase the semiactive radar head can be turned on if target starts maneuver to get it easy for SAM, but at that moment the pilot has any more just few seconds and usually it is better to use to eject.

 

In fact it's quite easy if an automatic or semi-automatic mode is employed.

 

If you have DCS Black Shark, you can count that it works pretty much the same way, although I believe that a Tunguska operator has an even easier work since:

 

- The system can be automatically steered towards the target by receiving the target's data through its datalink with air defence radars.

 

- The tunguska has to point its cameras up to the skies, where there is no clutter - point sized targets are easily discerned from the background. Using a FLIR channel only improve this situation.

 

Once the target is acquired (manually or automatically), it is auto-tracked and auto-gated by the tung cameras. The cpu onboard decides which is the best moment to launch the missiles.

 

There is only one aspect which is still not clear to me, range-finding.

If it is done by the on-board radar, it would make the target's rwr start honking.

 

If the tung has a laser-rangefinder (it could be) then the target gets a warning only if it has a LWR (like the KA-50).

 

Other ways to calculate range are unviable to a AA system, the only "stealth" one would be receiving the range parameters from an integrated air defense radar over the aforementioned datalink.

 

As for the ability to spoof these missiles with decoys - no, chaffs and flare would not be able to seduce the missiles away.

Yet, it must be remembered that the way the system is conceived, makes its missiles effective only against targets with low radial velocities (helis or A10s approaching or receding)

 

The A-10C will detect the launch, because it has a MAWS, but it is in no way able to discern if the plane is actually the target of the missile (MAWS tends to report every missile that is approaching its parent AC, even at improbable velocities and angles)

[AldoUSMC]

Gents,

 

As a data point... on multiplayer servers as the Ground Commander playing the Tunguska first person (DCS Combined Arms Module) I have shot down other players with missiles using the optical guidance system.. they never saw it coming... but it's not easy as suggested.

 

I've also done it to both Helos and A-10s with a Sagger Missile from a BMP... so don't "assume" all those BMPs are just AI when rolling in on a multiplayer server.

 

Semper Fi

AldoUSMC