DCS: F-5E!

[Drag0nWIng]

I just hope ed could build all of armament by themselves in order to reflect the real performance or the ed could adjust the date of other developer's project...

[spiddx]

I just hope ed could build all of armament by themselves in order to reflect the real performance

 

 

HAHAAHAHA!!!

 

Sorry... I better go now. ;)

[mattebubben]

HAHAAHAHA!!!

 

Sorry... I better go now. ;)

 

I think he ment that if ED does all of the missiles then they will all preform more realistically as compared to each other.

 

But if the 3rd party devs all made the missiles for their own aircraft then the missiles might over preform or underpreform compared to the missiles of the other devs.

 

While if ED made them all they they should all hold the same standard.

[spiddx]

I think he ment that if ED does all of the missiles then they will all preform more realistically as compared to each other.

 

But if the 3rd party devs all made the missiles for their own aircraft then the missiles might over preform or underpreform compared to the missiles of the other devs.

 

While if ED made them all they they should all hold the same standard.

Well we saw how that worked out with the French missiles. ;)

[mattebubben]

Well we saw how that worked out with the French missiles. ;)

 

Well the french missiles were not a priority untill now and im very sure they will be fixed in the not to distant future.

[Kev2go]

It wont be if F-5s get all aspect heater, than the MiG-21 is facked basicly.

Head-on merge with F-5s carying those missiles? No thanks, RTB and to the officer club for some vodka instead for me.

 

 

then a mission designer can jsut limited the missiles to rear aspect ones if all aspect Aimp4/5 would be such a probelm to Aim 3p and earlier.

 

in servers where more modern fighters will be allowed aimp94/5 would surely be a must have.

 

i realise r60m is still only a limited all aspect, but that still a early 80s era missile, no reason why f5e cant get better missiles from later parts of its service life.

[OxideMako]

Well the french missiles were not a priority untill now and im very sure they will be fixed in the not to distant future.

 

RAZBAM are now doing their own versions of the 530D/530, rather than using the "questionable" versions ED built. Although I believe ED just hired a new developer specifically to work on weapon modelling. So hopefully the whole Mirage missile debacle, as well as the constant state of flux the R-27/AIM-120 series and the upcoming F-14/AIM-54 seem to be in has made them realize that the issue can't really be ignored any more.

[GGTharos]

RAZBAM are now doing their own versions of the 530D/530, rather than using the "questionable" versions ED built.

 

They aren't questionable. ED have a particular model they're sticking to, and that's OK; it just doesn't perform as it ought to in the many humble opinions of various people. Let's call it a philosophical disagreement for now. The new developer should be able to bring in new behaviors and other fun things, I hope. :)

[pepin1234]

They aren't questionable. ED have a particular model they're sticking to, and that's OK; it just doesn't perform as it ought to in the many humble opinions of various people. Let's call it a philosophical disagreement for now. The new developer should be able to bring in new behaviors and other fun things, I hope. :)

 

I don't believe ED gonna allow every 3Th party modify and set whatever performance for the weapons. Specially the physic flight model for A-A weapons.

 

Every developer wish the best performance for own projects, in this try they can add some extra performance for the best success. This should be standardized by ED, maybe together with ED.

[Nerd1000]

Well depends if the R-3R and Mig-21Bis Radar are patched to more realistic preformance.

 

But also the Seeker of the Aim-9P4 is a slightly simplified variant of the Aim-9L seeker.

 

So why not make a test.

 

If the Aim-9L can get a solid look before the R-3R can get into range.

 

Ppl need to take into account that the R-3R is a late 1960s missile that is currently preforming.

 

It should be far less effective against a small manuvering target then it is.

 

But Both the R-3S and R-3R are overpreforming.

 

And that has not been as much of a problem when all the Mig-21Bis was facing was more advanced aircraft.

 

But its much more likley to be fixed with the addition of Contemporary aircraft.

 

:Edit

 

Well Usually IR seekers (atleast more modern ones) get a solid lock before they get into effective range (especially in a chase)

 

And it also depends on the targets power settings.

 

Against a Mig-21 on full afterburner the Aim-9P4 could most likley get a solid lock at the max firing range.

 

That's not to say the MiG would be helpless though. I've had plenty of success spoofing the AIM-9Ms that AI F-5s carry by locking the F-5 with the MiG's radar and launching flares as soon as I enter AIM-9 range. The AIM-9L would be less dangerous (reduced counter-CM abilities), and presumably the P4 would be slightly worse than that.

 

With a realistic R-3R, the F-5E should have no trouble spoofing the MiG's missiles with chaff, so most likely both planes will reach the merge... and then anything could happen :joystick: . I'd put my money on the F-5, but the MiG might catch him unawares.

[mattebubben]

That's not to say the MiG would be helpless though. I've had plenty of success spoofing the AIM-9Ms that AI F-5s carry by locking the F-5 with the MiG's radar and launching flares as soon as I enter AIM-9 range. The AIM-9L would be less dangerous (reduced counter-CM abilities), and presumably the P4 would be slightly worse than that.

 

With a realistic R-3R, the F-5E should have no trouble spoofing the MiG's missiles with chaff, so most likely both planes will reach the merge... and then anything could happen :joystick: . I'd put my money on the F-5, but the MiG might catch him unawares.

 

It will mostly come down to tactics and pilot skill (as it should.

 

And to who makes a mistake first.

 

For example if they start a high G turnfighter after the merge the F-5E is likley to come out ontop.

 

But if the Mig-21 pilot takes it into the vertical the mig-21 might gain the advantage.

 

Personally i would bet on the F-5E but in the end it comes down to the pilot and who uses the strengths of his aircraft the best.

[bgabor911]

Did you guys notice that even as we speak, the default weapon loadout for the F-5Es(CAP role) in DCS is FOUR Sidewinders? 2 AIM-9Ps and two AIM-9Ms.

[mattebubben]

Did you guys notice that even as we speak, the default weapon loadout for the F-5Es(CAP role) in DCS is FOUR Sidewinders? 2 AIM-9Ps and two AIM-9Ms.

 

=P neither the F-5E or the F-5E-3 in DCS atm can use the Aim-9M...

 

And also they only have the two pylons able to use IR missiles (wingtips)

 

so im not sure what ur talking about mate...

[cofcorpse]

Did you guys notice that even as we speak, the default weapon loadout for the F-5Es(CAP role) in DCS is FOUR Sidewinders? 2 AIM-9Ps and two AIM-9Ms.

 

I guess, it is old saved payload.

[bgabor911]

It seems to me, that no one really knows what the F5E really can or cannot do. DCS devs certainly dont.

 

[WinterH]

It seems to me, that no one really knows what the F5E really can or cannot do. DCS devs certainly dont.

 

Belsimtek has manuals / documents for the version they are making, manuals found online support what they say. Therefore they know it just fine what the version they make can and can not do.

 

The screenshot you have posted, like cofcorpse said, is probably a left over saved payload from old AI F-5E there was since lockon, which won't make it into release.

Edited February 22, 2016 by WinterH

[Hook47]

I cannot wait to have the F-5, and I love a challenge, but in equal hands generally speaking I feel pretty confident the MiG 21 will mop the floor with the F-5. Heck I could be wrong, but only two missiles and the MiG likely being able to get the front aspect shot depending on what missiles the F-5 gets spells big trouble for the F-5

[mattebubben]

It seems to me, that no one really knows what the F5E really can or cannot do. DCS devs certainly dont.

 

 

AS stated thats a old loadout from a earlier version of the game.

 

there has been plenty of unrealistic loadouts but those have been patched as ED has gotten more info.

 

(like then in Flaming Cliffs 1 the Su-33 could carry the KH-41 anti ship missile)

 

There are Upgrade F-5Es that can carry 4 missiles.

 

And im Sure some of the Upgrade F-5Es can use Aim-9Ms.

 

But none of the factory standard variants where made that way.

 

And Neither of the F-5s we have in the game atm (including the one being made by belsimtech) will have 4 missiles nor will they have the Aim-9M.

 

So that loadout is most likley just a old mistaken loadout.

 

And if you go to modify loadouts you can see that you can no longer give the F-5E Aim-9Ms or make it carry missiles on the outboard underwing pylon.

Edited February 22, 2016 by mattebubben

[King_Hrothgar]

I cannot wait to have the F-5, and I love a challenge, but in equal hands generally speaking I feel pretty confident the MiG 21 will mop the floor with the F-5. Heck I could be wrong, but only two missiles and the MiG likely being able to get the front aspect shot depending on what missiles the F-5 gets spells big trouble for the F-5

 

I doubt that. The F-5's superior electronics and cockpit visibility combined with the MiG-21's lack of both will even things up a lot. Ultimately, I think we'll see three views based on three levels of skills. For opposing novice users, the F-5 will likely come out on top due to its more forgiving natures (turn fighting vs B&Z) and thus will be considered the better plane. In intermediate hands, I suspect it will be reversed with the MiG-21's radar missiles + overwhelming speed and climb rate advantages giving it the edge. And then finally with expert users, I think it will end up reasonably even.

[Hook47]

I doubt that. The F-5's superior electronics and cockpit visibility combined with the MiG-21's lack of both will even things up a lot. Ultimately, I think we'll see three views based on three levels of skills. For opposing novice users, the F-5 will likely come out on top due to its more forgiving natures (turn fighting vs B&Z) and thus will be considered the better plane. In intermediate hands, I suspect it will be reversed with the MiG-21's radar missiles + overwhelming speed and climb rate advantages giving it the edge. And then finally with expert users, I think it will end up reasonably even.

 

It's possible, I see your point of view. although I think expert pilots will probably tip towards the MiG as well. It's just my opinion though, we will see once it releases!

 

Actually I enjoy ground attack in the MiG and other fast movers immensely, so I am equally excited to do some ground pounding in the F-5 as well

[Hummingbird]

It's possible, I see your point of view. although I think expert pilots will probably tip towards the MiG as well. It's just my opinion though, we will see once it releases!

 

Actually I enjoy ground attack in the MiG and other fast movers immensely, so I am equally excited to do some ground pounding in the F-5 as well

 

The MiG-21 holds most of the cards against the F-5, whilst the F-5 only really has one clear advantage over the MiG (turn rate/radius). So I would agree with you that in skilled hands the MiG will most likely usually come out on top.

[mattebubben]

The MiG-21 holds most of the cards against the F-5, whilst the F-5 only really has one clear advantage over the MiG (turn rate/radius). So I would agree with you that in skilled hands the MiG will most likely usually come out on top.

 

the F-5E has very good agility and acceleration though.

 

And it has better / more advanced systems then the Mig-21Bis.

 

it will come down to the pilot in a lot of cases but id bet on the F-5E =P.

 

The Benefit has over the F-5E is that it can run while the F-5E cant.

 

So a F-5E pilot will have to be more offensive or use terrain to get away.

 

But in a dogfight or close in combat scenario the speed advantage will mostly bee a defensive advantage as long as the F-5E stays on the offensive.

[Hummingbird]

the F-5E has very good agility and acceleration though.

 

And it has better / more advanced systems then the Mig-21Bis.

 

it will come down to the pilot in a lot of cases but id bet on the F-5E =P.

 

The Benefit has over the F-5E is that it can run while the F-5E cant.

 

So a F-5E pilot will have to be more offensive or use terrain to get away.

 

But in a dogfight or close in combat scenario the speed advantage will mostly bee a defensive advantage as long as the F-5E stays on the offensive.

 

The acceleration of the F-5E is not going to approach that of the MiG I'm afraid.

 

The F-5E's more "advanced" electronics will make it a slightly more user friendly, most likely making the F-5 more easily mastered than the MiG-21, but atm I'm convinced that a fully mastered MiG-21Bis is better - it's gonna be no easy task to overcome the MiGs significant advantage in speed, acceleration & climb performance.

 

As a F-5E pilot it's going to all about luring the MiG into a horizontal angles fight, if you can't achieve that I can see it beeing a very tough task to stay alive against a competent MiG pilot.

[Schmidtfire]

While I love flying the MiG-21, I think that F-5E will have most of the advantages in a dogfight.

Good visibility from cockpit, better radar and gunsight for dogfights, modern RWR. Should be able to dodge the R-3R (if getting a proper RWR warning) and force a merge. MiG-21 might go into the vertical and BnZ tactics, but poor visibility from cockpit and bad spotting in DCS will negate that advantage.

[mattebubben]

While I love flying the MiG-21, I think that F-5E will have most of the advantages in a dogfight.

Good visibility from cockpit, better radar and gunsight for dogfights, modern RWR. Should be able to dodge the R-3R (if getting a proper RWR warning) and force a merge. MiG-21 might go into the vertical and BnZ tactics, but poor visibility from cockpit and bad spotting in DCS will negate that advantage.

 

Exactly.

 

the F-5E pilot will have alot better situational awareness.

 

And while the F-5E does not have better acceleration then the mig-21Bis its not a lot worse either.

 

And the F-5E is more nimble (more precise manuvering and faster changes of direction etc)

 

So i still think the F-5E will have the upperhand if you can get close.

 

its very much gonna be a even fight (depending on pilots and tactics used)

 

but i think a F-5E is likely to get the upper hand with 2 pilots of equal skill.

 

Even the soviets that tested the F-5E against the Mig-21 and Mig-23 thought the F-5E came out ahead in a close fight.

 

 

Hello, everyone!

 

I think this can be of a great interest to the community, as it was for me. This is an excerption from the book "Life-Long Runway" written by the Soviet Air Force test pilot Vladimir Kondaurov. The story is that in 1976 the Soviets got an F-5E to test. Here is what the test pilot made out of it.

 

The translation was made by myself. English is not my native language, so, please, forgive me if the text is not perfect.

 

 

In the summer of 1976 a disassembled American F-5 fighter jet was delivered to our base at Aktubinsk. To be correct, it was F-5E - the latest variant with increased engines thrust. By the size it was smaller than MiG-21, had two engines installed side-by-side in the fuselage, a sharp swept-down nose and short tapered wings. The war in Vietnam had finished, and the United States Air Forces were leaving this long-suffering country, hastily abandoning several aircraft of this type on one of the airfields. One of them was handed over to the USSR together with its pilot manual. There were no technical descriptions, but our engineers figured everything out, assembled it to the last bolt and made it flyable, bringing not only the foreign hard pieces together, but also tons of electric wiring. A test brigade was formed to conduct special flight tests, and a program was written, which assumed 35-40 test flights. I was one of the test pilots, our lead was Nikolay Stogov.

 

After a proper training I was trusted to perform the first speed run on the runway and then a run with a 3-6 feet jump. These precautions had their reasons in our uncertainty, that all the systems had been assembled and connected correctly.

 

And finally, we were alone. The "Foreigner" hid within. From the manual I knew, that it had had no problems in operation whatsoever. But I also knew that every manufacturer had their own zest in the product. Unlike our fighters in production, the "Foreigner" had brakes on pedals, which we had on heavy aircraft only. The cockpit was not cluttered by various switches and circuit breakers unneeded in flight. They were all concentrated in a single horizontal "stock" away from the working area. I understood that F-5 was a way not the most modern plane and that it was inferior even to MiG-21, but, nonetheless, I liked the cockpit layout. I decided to make the run on the second runway, which was the longest one. "There is never too much runway ahead," I thought, taxiing to the runway. It was the winter of 1976-77. Of course, there was no reason to hide I was proud that the only aircraft of this type available in the USSR was trusted to me.

 

I turned on the extension of the nose strut - the electrohydraulic retractor engaged, and the nose of the aircraft started to "crawl" up. "How about that?" I shook my head surprised. "Couldn't you do without it on this little one?" As for me, not a common way to reduce your takeoff roll. In the USSR, only Myasischev used this on M-3 and M-4 - the heavy long-range bombers with a tandem gear layout, thus with very short nose struts.

 

"Alright," I thought, "we kneeled, so let's run. It is awkward to fool around this way." I increased thrust and released the brakes. The aircraft started to roll. It rolled evenly, reluctantly gaining speed. Aha! That's why they raise the nose strut! The engines are feeble, and the wing is too small. I lifted the nosewheel off the ground and held the airplane from the premature liftoff. Enough for this time. I powered back and lowered the nose. And then... what the heck? The entire nose started to shake and vibrate, then it started to wander left and right so violently, I thought it would just fall the hell off in a moment. Something was screeching and rumbling below. My first thought was about the nosewheel shimmy, but then I realized the nosewheel had been destroyed. I pulled the drag chute handle. "Not the brakes... Main wheels damage is the last thing we need: we don't have spares," the thoughts were rushing in my mind. Gradually reducing the speed, I stopped. I switched everything off, opened the canopy and impatiently jumped down onto the tarmac. I looked and I was puzzled: the wheel was intact. "That's strange! So what were you so unhappy with?" I looked at the "Foreigner" suspiciously. It turned out that he was unhappy with our runway condition: rough grooves and seams were so deep, and the surface of the concrete was decayed, so he just didn't stand it. One bolt was cut off, and the strut together with the wheel was turning around.

 

- "Nice! Ours don't do things like that," I gave his nose a pat and whispered: "Don't worry, we'll find a new bolt for you and you'll gallop around again!"

 

As I got to know the "Foreigner" I grew up in my respect to him both as to the flying machine and as to the fighter jet. Unapt to aggressive maneuvering when in "cruise" configuration (flaps and slats up), he would have changed when the pilot put it into the "maneuvering" configuration (flaps and slats down). Then from a heavy clodhopper he turned into a swallow. Checking out the capabilities of the optical sight, I enjoyed keeping the reticle on the target while attacking with a 6g pull, whereas on MiG-21 it would disappear from the view at 3g.

 

After determining the basic specification we decided to set up for a mock air-to-air combat with MiG-21bis. I would fight on my "native" MiG-21, and Nikolay Stogov - on F-5. The close air combat started head-on in equal positions. Every flight ended with the same result: MiG-21 lost, although he had much higher thrust-to-weight ratio. I laid myself out just to keep the initial position. I took the most out of the aircraft, took all he could give, but the targeting angle grew steadily and in a few minutes the "bandit" was on my tail. Only tactics could save me. What I was stricken by the most is that the result of the mock fights took not only the generals by surprise (one could explain this somehow), but also the military research departments of the Air Force and even the aviation engineers. They would review the data records for thousand times, ask the pilots, especially me. Frankly, I was somewhat confused as well, but when I tried the F-5, I realized that it was not an ordinary one.

 

So, what was happening in flight? At the speeds of 800 km/h (430 kts) and above the fight was on equal terms, nobody had explicit advantages, but the fighting was not literally maneuvering because of the large radii of the maneuvers. We would both stay at the equal maximum allowable g-loads. Whilst at the speeds below 750 km/h (400 kts) one couldn't sustain these g-loads even with the afterburner. And the lower the speed was the faster it decayed, thus lowering the maximum available g-load. It turned out that the aerodynamics was what won the day, not the thrust/weight ratio. But how was I to explain all this to the people above? They wouldn't have patted our backs for this. Then the MiG company representatives suggested:

 

- "Let's set MiG-23M against him."

 

- "But they cannot be compared to one another; they are from different generations." The chief of our research institute objected.

 

The chief of our institute, colonel general I. Gaidayenko had been a fighter-pilot during World War II and a wingman of the very P. Kutakov, who was the supreme commander of the Air Force at the time of our struggle with the F-5. The result of the test flights was supposed to be reported to Kutakov.

 

- "So what? We will kick his ass anyway!" 2nd lead engineer of MiG-23M spoke out, rubbing his hands in expectance of the revenge.

 

Well, the ass was kicked, for sure... but one of our own. The result was the same with the only exception that the agony lasted for 4-5 minutes. You have also to keep in mind that I had been considered a pilot capable of any stall and spin recovery and I had been permitted to break any angle of attack limitations. In the dogfight, I set the optimal wing sweep manually, but all in vain. The foreigner would slowly, but steadily, approach my tail. After these flights all calmed down for some time, all discussions ceased. The chief of the RI ordered to promptly compile a statement on the tests and directed me and Stogov to Moscow, to the Central Research Institution No. 30, which was involved in elaboration of the long-term problems of aviation advancement.

 

Paying a visit to one of its departments we asked, what they could tell us about the MiG-21 advantages over the F-5E.

 

- "Oh!" The military scientists immediately exclaimed. "With pleasure! There is a fray right now between Ethiopia and Somalia, and these very aircraft fight each other there. And we are busy preparing recommendations for the pilots on how to successfully fight the F-5 in aerial combat."

 

- "And what you've got?" I asked with an interest.

 

- "Take a look at the graph of the attack success probability. See? We beat him everywhere."

 

- "Indeed," I droned, looking at the so familiar graph in front of me and feeling somewhat hurt for the "Foreigner".

 

- "And what're the odds?" My friend asked, making a face of a village gull.

 

- "We've got much better thrust-to-weight ratio," the scientist replied in a voice of a mentor, who knew his worth.

 

- "Alright, then could you read this Statement and give us your final conclusion, please? And..."

 

- "And we'll go have a lunch," Nikolay suggested, "You know, on an errand it's like in defense: the meal is the ultimate thing."

 

This was the end of our work on the comparative evaluation of the "Foreigner" and our Soviet fighters. I don't know what kind of discussions were held "up there", but I know for sure, that the recommendations for the Ethiopian pilots were changed. Our "experts" suggested not to engage in a close dogfight, but to use the "hit-and-run" tactics instead. What about MiG-23, everyone preferred to forget about it. You bet! It had been supposed to fight even more advanced aircraft! Our Statement was classified as top secret and removed somewhere away from the eyes. The "Foreigner" was given to the aviation industry specialists with a strict clause: no flying, but to disassemble and study the structural features to use the knowledge in further projects. Some time passed, and the Su-25 close air support aircraft emerged. It had the wheel brakes on the rudder pedals, "maneuvering" wing configuration and a different approach to the cockpit layout. In the terms of the pilot workstation our engineers went even further, and nowadays the cockpit of MiG-29 can serve as an exemplar for similar foreign combat aircraft. The same can be said about the aerodynamics. The aerodynamic capabilities of Su-27 fighter are considered unexcelled so far. It appears that what is clear for one is a revelation for the other. I believe that similar situations arose in the USA as well, as they got our aircraft at times from MiG-21 to MiG-29. We had luck only once.

 

Source

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2413167#post2413167

 

And if that is the statement from a Soviet Test pilot of the time i dont see why we should not believe it.

Edited February 23, 2016 by mattebubben