ILS Flight Director Influenced by Course Selector

[majapahit]

take it easy

wasnt talking about your charts snoop,

what I know are the AIF charts here in Europe.

 

So the USA uses decimal.

What I mentioned was, that's nice and perhaps somewhat nurdy from the FAA, you got decimals in your database, so you'll use them, right.

 

Only problem is in practicality, I'd say calling out the decimal is inefficient, not to say, it only adds confusion or complicates, where there is no need for the decimal call-out that I can think of.

 

Perhaps when you're landing the space shuttle, but who does that.

NASA does a decimal, perhaps, I am fine with AIF, makes sense.

[Snoopy]

Not confusing or complicated by we've gotten off topic so we'll agree to disagree.

[majapahit]

Not confusing or complicated by we've gotten off topic so we'll agree to disagree.

 

Ok, so anyway,

you americans agree with me, DCS MAP F10 should be magnetic, right.

 

There was a mention Mission planner could be True, but that again would be complicating things, that should be solved in the Legend

(the word I was looking for)

 

Repairing ILS in 1.5/2 is on the DCS list hopefully.

Its quite bizar it isnt working properly at the moment when you think of it.

[Joni]

Ok, so anyway,

you americans agree with me, DCS MAP F10 should be magnetic, right.

 

There was a mention Mission planner could be True, but that again would be complicating things, that should be solved in the Legend

(the word I was looking for)

 

Repairing ILS in 1.5/2 is on the DCS list hopefully.

Its quite bizar it isnt working properly at the moment when you think of it.

 

I dont think that navigation inconsistencies are gonna be fixed in the near future according to Matt's priorities.

 

But feel free to download the file that Lino and I have been working on and you'll have a trouble free navigation and approaches experience. :)

[Backy 51]

Very spirited discourse there Snoopy. Very good read and Lino's Excel sheet is fantastic!

 

Observation 1: Airport Diagrams are NOT Approach Plates. Show me a valid FAA Approach Plate with an ILS course depicted with a decimal place and I'll eat it.

 

Observation 2: I am not going to dial a damn true course into a HSI Course select knob. The DCS World Mission Editor course depictions would be most useful displaying the Magnetic Course (MC). I doubt magnetic variation rate of change is modelled in the sim. If it is, you better get FAA Flight Check to certify the approaches. :D

 

Observation 3: I'd be interested to know how each airfield equipped with an ILS behaves at DH and the MAP. Some brave soul could use the sim freeze button and check each airfield as a new science project to placate all of us real world pilots out here. Sitting at the approach end of the runway doesn't count. ;)

 

Statement of Fact 1: Your products that you've created in association with the 476th are some of the best products available for DCS. We're all hoping that spirit of persistence and attention to detail flows into DCS 2.0 and the NTTR.

 

Anyone that is not a rated pilot or navigator or both can engorge themselves with free information on the topic at:

 

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/

[Joni]

Very spirited discourse there Snoopy. Very good read and Lino's Excel sheet is fantastic!

 

Observation 1: Airport Diagrams are NOT Approach Plates. Show me a valid FAA Approach Plate with an ILS course depicted with a decimal place and I'll eat it.

 

Observation 2: I am not going to dial a damn true course into a HSI Course select knob. The DCS World Mission Editor course depictions would be most useful displaying the Magnetic Course (MC). I doubt magnetic variation rate of change is modelled in the sim. If it is, you better get FAA Flight Check to certify the approaches. :D

 

Observation 3: I'd be interested to know how each airfield equipped with an ILS behaves at DH and the MAP. Some brave soul could use the sim freeze button and check each airfield as a new science project to placate all of us real world pilots out here. Sitting at the approach end of the runway doesn't count. ;)

 

Statement of Fact 1: Your products that you've created in association with the 476th are some of the best products available for DCS. We're all hoping that spirit of persistence and attention to detail flows into DCS 2.0 and the NTTR.

 

Anyone that is not a rated pilot or navigator or both can engorge themselves with free information on the topic at:

 

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/

 

 

Magnetic variation is modeled and that is why I worked with Lino to intergate the magnetic courses into the list. The magnetic variation is modeled as of 2010 and it is 6°E as published on the default documentation that comes with the installation.

 

If you just dial the ME course you'll end up with a very wrong FD indication.

[Snoopy]

Observation 1: Airport Diagrams are NOT Approach Plates. Show me a valid FAA Approach Plate with an ILS course depicted with a decimal place and I'll eat it.

 

You're right, and if you look at the SID and approaches we charted (Batumi, Senaki, Vaziani) we don't have any decimal points, those are only on the airport diagrams same as real FLIPs.

 

Statement of Fact 1: Your products that you've created in association with the 476th are some of the best products available for DCS. We're all hoping that spirit of persistence and attention to detail flows into DCS 2.0 and the NTTR.

 

Hopefully with NTTR and Nellis specifically everything will be correct with all the flight aids included on the map so we won't have to and we can use the real world Airport Diagram, SIDs, and charted approaches.

[majapahit]

Observation 1: Airport Diagrams are NOT Approach Plates. Show me a valid FAA Approach Plate with an ILS course depicted with a decimal place and I'll eat it.

 

aha, makes sense

would make FAA and AIF not so different after all

 

Observation 2: I am not going to dial a damn true course into a HSI Course select knob. The DCS World Mission Editor course depictions would be most useful displaying the Magnetic Course (MC). I doubt magnetic variation rate of change is modelled in the sim. If it is, you better get FAA Flight Check to certify the approaches. :D

now that what's I was talkin about,

were airmen not computerdrones

:pilotfly:

 

actually

I think magnetic variation rate of change might be modelled in the sim.

check your profile directory:

 

.\Saved Games\DCS.openbeta\Data\MagVar\TabularData\6_2011.bin

 

this file is periodically updated with newer ones, where I found numerous updated files in older profile directories

 

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/

Airship Pilot Manual (PDF) Sept. 1942

 

1942, thats when real men were still flying

(would they have ILS in those days?)

[Joni]

aha, makes sense

would make FAA and AIF not so different after all

 

now that what's I was talkin about,

were airmen not computerdrones

:pilotfly:

 

actually

I think magnetic variation rate of change might be modelled in the sim.

check your profile directory:

 

.\Saved Games\DCS.openbeta\Data\MagVar\TabularData\6_2011.bin

 

this file is periodically updated with newer ones, where I found numerous updated files in older profile directories

 

Airship Pilot Manual (PDF) Sept. 1942

 

1942, thats when real men were still flying

(would they have ILS in those days?)

 

 

Mmmm, interesting. I wonder if those files make the sim have a different variation depending on the year (like in real life) set in the ME.

[Snoopy]

Mmmm, interesting. I wonder if those files make the sim have a different variation depending on the year (like in real life) set in the ME.

 

Looks like the last update was 2010, maybe we'll get a 2015 update with 1.5 or 2.0. Currently there is no way to set a specific year in the ME.

[Joni]

Looks like the last update was 2010, maybe we'll get a 2015 update with 1.5 or 2.0. Currently there is no way to set a specific year in the ME.

 

Right. But mines are updated this year :huh:

 

And the open beta folder does not contain a data folder :joystick:

[majapahit]

If you just dial the ME course you'll end up with a very wrong FD indication.

 

Not quite. I think you're confusing 'the ME course' and 'a ME course'.

 

Air navigation (and naval) relies on the 'proper officially published' ME 'course of the day' as per the official publications. That is where one would rely on.

 

That 'any ME course' would be unreliable, is redundant, for that is mere theory, as Airmen are obliged to keep up-to-date on proper charts by the rules.

 

GPS navigation (all airliners these days) is mostly True headings at it core, based on True Map data, but the readout to the instruments will be Magnetic (can be switched, but which curious cat does that).

 

As per the Magnetic variation database, which all navigators are obliged to know are implemented correctly, or incorrectly and know the consequences, or not fly, or be in breach of the rules.

[Joni]

lol

 

i meant mission editor

[majapahit]

my old profile shows this in the MagVar subdir

 

Volume in drive I is WD2T

Volume Serial Number is C0CF-C41D

 

Directory of i:\TEKST\Saved Games\DCS\Data\MagVar\TabularData

 

21-Aug-15 02:19 <DIR> .

21-Aug-15 02:19 <DIR> ..

01-Aug-15 02:30 2,085,120 10_2011.bin

12-Aug-15 16:12 2,085,120 11_2011.bin

28-Jul-15 15:25 2,085,120 6_2011.bin

29-Jul-15 15:10 2,085,120 8_2011.bin

29-Jul-15 20:04 2,085,120 9_2011.bin

21-Aug-15 02:19 0 dir

6 File(s) 10,425,600 bytes

2 Dir(s) 140,106,035,200 bytes free

 

my fresh new openbeta profile directory shows just 1 file

6_2011.bin

 

maybe these are the same datafiles (would be weird what),

but at every DCS version update, this(ese) file(s) get(s) checked and renewed seems.

 

edit:

my guess would be, DCS programmed an 'automate and forget' protocol that collects outside data, to always be up-to-date

Edited August 21, 2015 by majapahit

[majapahit]

lol

i meant mission editor

 

ah, your old observation.

 

you're quite right, sorry bout that.

 

DCS should do what the real world does and 'publish' workable M headings, but add the Legend of what deviation is used, when and where.

 

These days in naval charts there's always a True heading in the compass legend printed

(and not in aviation charts, I seem to remember)

[Backy 51]

True Course (TC) +/- Magnetic Variation(MV) = Magnetic Course (MC)

 

Magnetic Course (MC) +/- Drift Angle (DA) = Magnetic Heading (MH)

 

Everyone get out your whiz wheels and chant the formula 8 times! :D

 

Stop the world .... I want to get off!

[majapahit]

True Course (TC) +/- Magnetic Variation(MV) = Magnetic Course (MC)

 

This you would use in the prep phase, pencil and ruler in hand.

Its putting theory to use

 

Magnetic Course (MC) +/- Drift Angle (DA) = Magnetic Heading (MH)

This 'formula' would have actual practical use in flying.

Therefore because of its everyday use the nomer 'magnetic' (is that called a a nomer?) is redundant.

 

Course +/- Drift = Heading

 

would thus make a proper formula, the theoretic part left at home (or base).

If you catch my drift.

[DirtyFret]

Politely steering the thread back on topic regarding the ILS steering column thingies ;)

 

The A10C (real) manual TO 1A-10C-1 from april 2012 states on page 1-92 (126) under topic

 

"ILS Operation" to "c. Set HSI course selector window (course arrow) to published inbound localizer course."

 

and on page FP21 (Figure FO-7, Sheets 3 & 5) describes that ADI bank steering bar when ILS is selected in NMSP: "Indicates position of localizer in relation to A/C. If FM is lit see FM column."

 

whereas the HSI Course deviation Indicator when ILS is selected in NMSP indicates: "Indicates localizer deviation from selected course"

 

 

So isn't this how it is modeled in DCS?

 

P.S. On page 1-92 the manual also mentions that on back course localizer approaches the ADI glideslope bars should be stowed because they will show erronous information

 

 

P.P.S I am not going link screencaps of the actual manual because last time someone did the posts mysteriously got deleted, google is everybodys friend:music_whistling:

[Joni]

All manuals and procedure documents will tell you to set the HSI course because it helps situational awareness and will not make sense if not set.

 

But we are discusing a different thing here. Weather the course selector affects the flight director or not.

 

 

Thanks bro.

[DirtyFret]

All manuals and procedure documents will tell you to set the HSI course because it helps situational awareness and will not make sense if not set.

 

But we are discusing a different thing here. Weather the course selector affects the flight director or not.

 

 

Thanks bro.

 

Good stuff. We are back on track then. Unfortunately I have yet to find any answer to that on the (real) manual. It is clear that in DCS it does but the question is whether it does in the real plane.

[Joni]

Like I said, I dont believe its possible for it to be affected due to how it is constructed and the nature of the single signal of an ILS... But I could be wrong of course.

[Manuel_108]

In commercial airliners the manually set course influences the flight director bars so why wouldn't it affect the Warthog's?

[Joni]

Because it does not happen on any airliner. I already confirmed this as a captain.

[Rongor]

In commercial airliners the manually set course influences the flight director bars so why wouldn't it affect the Warthog's?

Because what you are saying may work for VOR radials, TACAN courses and GPS/INS but not when the FD operates solely on receptions of ILS transmissions.

[Manuel_108]

So are we saying that ED modelled it wrong then?