Where do You purchase your Magnetic Switches?

[Tekkx]

After Gadroc gave the right Keyword (look here, if you want) I had following question:

 

Where do you Guys purchase your Mags (Magnetic Hold Switches)?

 

After it takes me a few weeks to find out what to look for, I found just those Honeywell's for 1000 $ each (still can't beleave that).

So I did some thinking, made some sketches and collected a box full of Aluminium-profiles, different brass-tubes, micro switches a.s.o.

 

Is it worth to develope and build own ones? Or is there an affordable source anywhere?

I have no real workshop. I do anything "on desk".

I plan my Mags to build with an "extended" function, so they will snap into desired position if you klick a Switch in the virtual Cockpit. No matter, which direction.

Real ones can't do so.

 

If YOU (community) say, it's worth to do such switches, I will increase my effort in this matter and will share my solution.

 

Right now I make a Rough and Ready solution with lighted buttons.

By the way: The code will be just the same as Gadroc's new approach (Link top of this post). It doesn't matter if a LED or a Magnetic Coil is fired. So maybe I'll be one of his first Test Pilots :)

 

Gadroc: Thank you so much for your efforts in DCS-BIOS and also HELIOS (I love it).

 

Break a leg!

Tekkx

Edited August 24, 2015 by Tekkx

[stelios2000]

i am interested also in Mag on/off switches....

not so much in Mag toggle switches but couldnt find any other than this

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MICRO-SWITCH-Magnetic-Momentary-Toggle-Switch-26ET61-T-Gulfstream-MED-switch-/281741273989?hash=item419916ab85&vxp=mtr

[Tekkx]

75 Bucks for one rusty old - maybe disfunctional - switch... that's my budget for a complete panel :)

Will post my first sketches and thinkings soon! (Right now at work)

[agrasyuk]

Those Honeywell ET switches are costly. 75$ is actually the lowest that I've seen it and I'm not aware of any budget alternative for mag hold. Tripple digit price is much more common.

 

To simulate the self hold action I experimented quite successfully with airpax circuit breakers (they look like toggles). The idea was to intercept the ON to OFF transition in game, send momentary pulse to one of the arduino outputs to open power transistor cascade and create an over current situation that will trip the physical switch. I got breakers that are 1A rated, low enough to not create sparks. Separate power supply was used, darlington transistors withstand about 7Amp momentarily, circuit was designed to deliver 3A pulse.

The thing is those breakers are not that cheap either, and availability is not stable at all (I think they no longer manufactured).

There are some challenges there though. Double pole breakers are to wide and will not fit standard 5.75" width SAS panel. The single pole ones will have more complex wiring as there is a need to accommodate both signalling and over current on one line , in my version 2 I used relays to isolate the signalling .

[Tekkx]

I disassembled already a circuit breaker. .... I live in a metric world and everything looks other than overseas :)

The "Old World" provides nothing usable in this matter :(

 

Right now at home. Digging my garbage stack for my sketches...

 

Thank you for "... 5.75" ..." :)

[Warhog]

Is it worth to develop and build own ones?

 

I would say that is one big AFFIRMATIVE :thumbup:

 

Other than a select few on this forum, I suspect a lot of us here have never really considered magnetic switches in any detail. With the advent of Ians DCS-BIOS and the mods that Gadroc is proposing, Magnetic switches can become a reality in our cockpits.

 

Tekkx has already indicated his intention to try and solve this problem,:smilewink: so lets give him a hand. Lets use this thread as a brain storming session and see if we can't collectively figure out an easy way to make these for ourselves.

 

We have the code, we need the switch...Post your ideas or solutions, pictures, sketches (read:drawings :smilewink:) or whatever. Lets see what we can come up with.:)

[Tekkx]

Thanks, Warhog, for your warm words. Now I'm under pressure :D

 

Attached is my first approach. Just brainstorming. There are no special solutions to be seen. It is completely out of scale!!!

 

Will try to explain my thoughts:

Coil is fired by 12V, powered by a MOSFET with Logic Level (costs a few Cents pp)

Main Problem will become, to give Coil enough Power to drag the switch without overheating. If you don't come under fire of AAA most devices working whole mission (several hours)

 

I have a single one here for tests... it gets some warm. Have to keep that on focus.

 

Maybe here are some experts (one is enough) who can calculate the right coil (I can't!).

 

The bushing on top is a small part from a lamp-shop(?). It usally feeds a cable thru the housing.

 

I just not drilled a single hole in this matter, so I don't know in which direction my first test will show. IF the coils dimensions are right, Switch will be able to snap in ON position if equivalent Switch in DCS is clicked.

If not (and coil becomes too warm (or hot), a second contact could be added to reduce (by a resistor or whatever) current in HOLD position.

 

Before I start sawing, drilling, soldering and execrating: Can someone provide me measures of a real SAS-Panel? So I will know in which borders I have to move :)

SAS will be the mother of all Mag-provided panels :)

 

What I forgot in my sketch is a Suspension Point in OFF-Position. This gives a notable KLICK! if it blows off :D

Edited August 24, 2015 by Tekkx
Updated Attachment

[agrasyuk]

Interesting concept tekkx. To work reliably this will need a signal from the game however . Is that going to be solved by adding the 4th argument that gadrock suggested in dcs-bios thread?

 

I was deliberating on similar to yours idea - holding the switch lever against the spring. However coming from model railroad world I though about using servos as actuation force. Think about a circle with slot mounted on the servo axis. Push the switch in and servo rotates to lock the lever forward, on "release" servo rotates to let the spring push the lever into the slot. Unlike solenoid servo can be driven directly and will not consume power when holding.

The weak point here is the situation where you manually want to disengage the switch. In your case you will need to push against energized solenoid. Position hold can be springed, but that's adds complexity to the mechanism. Hence instead of hold I was thinking more along the lines of latch and that brought me to circuit breakers.

 

ADD:

As far as dimensions of panels there is a very good guide with DZUS centered dimensions circulating here. It came up in other builder thread not so long ago. Bit hard to find it from mobile, will look and repost here once home. Unless someone else beats me to it :)

Edited August 24, 2015 by agrasyuk

[Tekkx]

I think, my model would already work with current available code:

DcsBios::ActionButton saspPitchSasLPush("SASP_PITCH_SAS_L", "PUSH", PIN); // from Micro Switch
DcsBios::LED saspPitchSasL(0x1108, 0x1000, PIN); // to MOSFET/Coil Input

Just "cold" thinking!

 

Your objection, "... how to press against holding force..." in case of manually switch off is a strong argument.

Let me manufact a prototype and we'll see.

In worst case I have to add an additional miroswitch which opens hold-circuit in case of pressing lever into OFF direction.

 

I'm still in a good hope, that good timing of lever position and opening of microswitch would do the service. If you move the lever just a few degrees, microswitch opens, DCS-device stops working, DCS-BIOS stops sending the LED-Signal, Coil's holding power is broken at once, spring snaps lever to OFF.

Theory!!!

Edited August 24, 2015 by Tekkx

[Hansolo]

Very interesting thread Tekkx. I think HarSu has also been thinking about trying to make a replica mag switch. As agrasyuk they are really expensive. I have found them down to $60 plus shipping but its a waiting game if you want all 7 used in the A-10C.

 

Noth sure if it is any assistance but I have attached a datasheet from an old model. Maybee you can use it. In any case I think its a very good initiative you are taking. All the best luck :thumbup:

 

Cheers

Hans

Toggle Swtich - Honeywell magnet toggle switche 31TS_ET.pdf

[metalnwood]

It's been a while since flying the bird but my memory says that we dont need to pull a switch in to a position just release it?

 

If thats the case then couldn't simple toggle switch be used and instead of trying to hold and release it, let it hold itself and find a way to move it..

 

My solidworks decided to throw an error this morning so here is a simple diagram..

 

A small solenoid that would take the switch from the on position to center. Of course the hard works is packaging it and making it work but perhaps the concept for a DIY'er of pushing it out of on ON state is easier to accomplish than one of trying to hold it. The other benefit is that it is as easy as flipping the switch to manually take it out of position.

 

If you were to make the entire toggle switch mechanism yourself then making a mag switch shouldnt be as hard as adapting an existing toggle as I am sure that a mag switch probably has much internal resistance by design to help the magnet.

[Deadman]

I would suggest that you just be patient and watch eBay the switches can be found in the $50 range in the states and in the EU. $75 for an SAS panel is not a realistic price even if you build everything on the panel you will have more in time than $75 on the panel. Here is a link to some one else that wanted to build there own mag switches. the drawing of the switch is worth a look http://hornetpits.org/index.php?topic=229.0

 

The actual size of the panels back plate is 5.75 inch wide and 3.36 inch tall. you will have a fairly hard time fitting any thing but the Honeywell 25ET61-T switch in the allotted area. All the best luck on your build.

[Tekkx]

It's been a while since flying the bird but my memory says that we dont need to pull a switch in to a position just release it?

 

If you talk about the real Bird: You are right. And if you operate your Sim just from the SimPit you also right.

What if someone clicks a switch in the virtual cockpit or uses automatic Startup procedure or mission starts hot on RWY?

You WILL get an inconsistent condition that you have to catch with your code: Virtual Switch is ON, Device is ON, physical SimPit Switch is still OFF...

 

Thats why I think by now, a Simpit NEEDS a Mag what acts in both directions.

Or you have to deactivate clickable cockpit.

 

Imagine: You hit the "Auto" button (I know, it's out of flavor) and around in your Pit clicks and cracks and blinks: very funny. Isn't it?

 

@deadman: Thank you. I took the picture from here, cut the SAS, scaled it to requiered dims (5.75 x 3.36) .. Ready.

So came out: A Mag must not exeed 30 x 40 mm (view from top).

That was close: The already purchased Aluminium-Profile (planned for housing) is exactly 40 mm. :)

Edited August 25, 2015 by Tekkx

[Deadman]

there are so many problem with that poster your going to pull your hair out

[Tekkx]

next very small step

 

there are so many problem with that poster your going to pull your hair out

Yes, indeed. I found a lot of typos.

But I hope, dimensions are right. Cause it's my(!) only source where panels are exact verticaly to be seen.

 

Yesterday I did a next step to our Mags.

After I had a sketch (close to drawing) at right scale I was some shocked: There is really not much sufficient room. Some experiences in watchmaking would be helpful. :)

 

My coil on stock brings some problems maybe.

 

This adventure began in January with a less-than-20-Bucks-purchase of A10C....

Now I have to learn how to calculate and wind(?) solenoids...

 

Is there still someone out there who says, gaming has nothing in common with education?

[Warhog]

Is there still someone out there who says, gaming has nothing in common with education?

 

Yah, No Shit... I have been learning electronics and programming from basically no knowledge to start with. I have had to developed all sorts of new and interesting ways to solve problems. I've learned how to hide money from my wife:music_whistling:. I learned how to do engraving. I taught myself CNC quite a few years ago in anticipation of some future project that would require it.

 

Yes indeed its been an excellent journey and learning experience.:thumbup:

 

Tekkx, do you have anything down on paper yet as to how you think it might work? If so could you send me a copy to look at? I just started to research this as well, so I haven't formed any concepts yet.

[Boltz]

Hi guys. I've seen a tutorial where someone made switches with solenoid a for a 737 sim. they did look good. That was a few months ago. Having trouble finding a link to it. I'll look again tonight

[Tekkx]

Attached is my latest concept. It is "On Scale". Width is 40 mm.

Travel of Lever is 30°, like Honeywell.

 

Housing (2mm Aluminium), Bushing, Microswitch, Brass Tube and Coil I have already on Hand.

It is not assembled yet!

Microswitch (ON-ON-Type) will close if his lever is released. I hope to save power this way.

 

Two questions are still open:

 

- will available power be adequate to pull the switch?

- will Solenoid overheat or not.

 

Right now I have just this single Solenoid at hand. Yesterday I ordered (here is NO local dealer!!) an other one.

 

Current used Solenoid has a designed Duty Cycle of 25% (on 10 Minutes) at 12V and runs now on "Testbed" for about 45 minutes at 7 Volts and is close to 50 Centigrades (stable) without extra Cooling.

Edit: after 60 minutes still at 48 to 50,5 Centigrades.

Room's temperature is about 28 centigrades. Air pressure (250 m ASL) and humidity N/A ;)

 

Nxt edit:

IF power isn't enough I could Solenoid fire with 12V and a simple electronic circuit limits current or voltage (depends on what's more applicable) to the minimum value after a few seconds.

Edited August 26, 2015 by Tekkx

[LynxDK]

Your Concept is not bad, i have been thinking of something simular, just with a real toggle switch in stead.

 

But you have a Little problem with your setup, your switch are missing the "click" effect, and are not able to be held in the position where the microswitch are pressed in.

 

You need somekind of tilt system with a spring, like the original Toggle Switches have. And when you have that in place, the Solenoid are going to have some problem pulling it, unless its a big one, and also given that you have the same kinda tention like a real toggle switch, you could of course losen that a bit.

 

Maybe the Pushing option would be better, since they have more power at the start.

 

As for the solenoid to overheat... it shouldnt be on all the time... if its on, you cant manually move the switch... so it needs a signal to pull the lever into position the second it need to be turned off, and then the power should be cut. then it wont be hot, and you can manually push the switches into position Again...

 

I might be wrong tho... but at least thats the way im thinking it :)

 

I like your idea, you might be on to something, keep up the good Work :)

[Tekkx]

your switch are missing the "click" effect

If I look at.... that's correct.

Even if it works, switch would be a little bit lacy or slacky like a limp daisy :cry:

 

Mh. ATM I have no idea...

 

somekind of tilt system with a spring

My very first concept (long before this thread was opened) had such a "flip over".

But this will bring other problems.

 

If first physical tests will fail, so I have to wind a stronger solenoid which could override the flip over.... Inside the housing is much more space than a prefabricated solenoid can use!!!

So I have to buy copper wire (different diameters), some iron tubes (out of the scrap-box of a plumber) to make a series. All experts I met at Internet calculated first and made a series of different solenoids. Seems not to be an exact science. Just Magic :D

 

Meanwhile I had a concept in mind with an impuls drive like model railroad switchpoint.

This impuls could be strong enough to push over the tilt point. No risk of overheating.

 

But this would require special code: One single impuls for ON, another impuls (same solenoid maybe) for OFF.

Ian (if you read this): Don't write any code in this matter since there is no hardware solution in sight :)

 

Let me (us) do some thinking.

Think, I follow for the present the Pull-and-Hold Taktic with an Flip-Over.

But right now it's family time :)

Edited August 26, 2015 by Tekkx

[Warhog]

Speaking of model railroads, I have an N scale layout and you just reminded me that the turnouts I use are "two direction" solenoids. A capacitor discharge moves the rails back and forth with quite a slap. That may be what is needed as it can operate in either direction and if you move the turnout by had it will still move as the solenoid doesn't prevent it from moving. It just slaps the rail one way or the other. PECO turnout motors are what you search for.

 

http://www.peco-uk.com/imageselector/Files/Instruction%20sheets/PL-10%20Series%20Instructions.pdf

 

http://www.martinandrose.com/page12.htm

[agrasyuk]

Well , it is my old CDU (capacitor discharge unit :) ) that I salvaged the darlingtons from.

Peco solenoids will provide above sufficient force for actuation and there is a very nice and simple recepie for reliable diacharge unit that can easily be driven from arduino. but they will not provide retention - the non stable position hold spring is part of the turnout itself, not part of the motor so that part is to be engineered.

 

Also I'm getting a bit lost on the goal. Is it the magnetic hold action that OP wants to simulate where the switch will have momentary action unless lock signal is present? Or is it commanding switch position in general? Peco solenoid based solution (or C breaker for that matter) will not be able to simulate situation where non energized switches just spring back?

 

As to the aspect of "knowledge from gaming" as strange as it may sound I don't think that playing dcs game falls into "gaming" category really. :)

Edited August 26, 2015 by agrasyuk

[metalnwood]

Anton, going by the reply to me he doesnt want it to just hold position but want to be able to go in to a position as commanded by software to keep everything in synch with the simulation.

[Tekkx]

Just one short question in between:

(Did some thinking while I repaired our kitchen sink today)

 

@All: Have you ever touched a real Magnetic Hold Switch?

Does it have the same "klick"-effect as a normal switch?

Specially if it NOT powered - means if it doesn't stay in ON position?

 

Meanwhile I ordered some copper wire for extra coils. And my brain is already over some special design problems...

 

Stay tuned.

[agrasyuk]

Yes, magnetic hold switch has momentary action when not energized, has as much click as usual switches . Yes, I touched the real one (turret stabilization ON switch in M60 Patton is magnetic hold)