Russian missiles - usage, bug, problems, advantages

[Heratic]

I found a server last night that had a mission up where f15 and su27 were limited to aim-7 and r27r max. I wish more servers would do that. 159th used to be my favorite because it had full awacs and flying the su27 was more fun that way. But they seem to have taken it to 1.5 and locked the server.

 

Yeah i have played servers like that as well and it's heaps of fun. I played a server that just didn't have 120C but still 120B and it was also a lot of fun. I think the fact when you go onto a server and there's 14 people flying F15's and like 2 people flying the Su27 or mig when there's 120C's active says it all.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Heratic

[domini99]

Yeah i have played servers like that as well and it's heaps of fun. I played a server that just didn't have 120C but still 120B and it was also a lot of fun. I think the fact when you go onto a server and there's 14 people flying F15's and like 2 people flying the Su27 or mig when there's 120C's active says it all.

This is usually the problem

 

Way more F15 pilots than flanker/mig pilots.

 

Blue team has for some reason almost always the most players.

[DarkFire]

This is usually the problem

 

Way more F15 pilots than flanker/mig pilots.

 

Blue team has for some reason almost always the most players.

 

I think the 2 main causes of that are

 

1. The general belief is that the F-15 is "better" than the Su-27.

 

2. The Su-27 takes much, much longer to become proficient at piloting and can still be unforgiving at times.

[winchesterdelta1]

This is usually the problem

 

Way more F15 pilots than flanker/mig pilots.

 

Blue team has for some reason almost always the most players.

 

Because they are biased towards blue and non westerns are a lot of time biased towards RED. That is why i like to suggest to make those teams other colors than red and blue. But it will still not fix the issue with people choosing the F-15 more than the SU-27.

 

 

*** Hmm i just checked and i can not post a new thread on the Wishlist forum. Is there a restriction on the entire Wishlist forum. Or am i just restricted to post there? If i am restricted where can i see what i did wrong so i can refrain from doing that the next time.

Edited October 6, 2015 by winchesterdelta1

[whitehot]

I read somebody asking about the R-27EA - my question would be why they don't add the R-27EM? Should be available in Russian Air force magazines, and 170Kms range could rebalance the current disadvantage with Aim120 a little. There are also the active versions of the R-27, although I believe that Russia hasn't bought them, iirc they have been deployed by China on its SU-27/SU-30 variants; and with 1.5 version China is now present in DCS...

[Heratic]

I think the 2 main causes of that are

 

1. The general belief is that the F-15 is "better" than the Su-27.

 

2. The Su-27 takes much, much longer to become proficient at piloting and can still be unforgiving at times.

 

1. The f15 is better because with the 120C you can still get a kill even if you get shot down. Plus you don't have to respect R27's there easy spoofed at range. Once you get a 120C off at good range the SU27 has to disengage and go defensive making his missles worthless. You can't just crank it. Also once the F15 launches and the 120C goes pitbull they can go defensive however they like where in the SU27 you have to keep within the radar range which = death. I enjoy flying the SU27 but it just gets frustrating. If we has an active missile it would change the way F15's fly and make more people fly the SU27. That or just remove the 120C which makes better combat on MP servers. I used to always flit the SU27 but lately If there's 120C's in MP now i just fly the F15. Way more fun getting kills then being hunted all the time.

 

2. The SU27 is all about trying to hide and get into a dog fight. Not everyone likes hiding in the mountains.

[=4c=Nikola]

 

2. The SU27 is all about trying to hide and get into a dog fight. Not everyone likes hiding in the mountains.

 

You just don't know how to fly it efficiently.

 

The aircraft is a beast. It allows multiple tactic and play styles while in F-15 you are bound to only one or two.

Edited October 6, 2015 by =4c=Nikola

[domini99]

You just don't know how to fly it efficiently.

 

The aircraft is a beast. It allows multiple tactic and play styles while in F-15 you are bound to only one or two.

This is definitely true.

The aircraft is a lot of fun, it's just that fighting of a quadrozilion F15's with a team of 3 flankers isn't going to work that well

[Heratic]

You just don't know how to fly it efficiently.

 

The aircraft is a beast. It allows multiple tactic and play styles while in F-15 you are bound to only one or two.

 

No i might not know how to. I'm no expert. I still score kills in it though. But it can't just be me since I'm one of the few who flys the SU27 on a server at any given time against 10 F15's.

[=4c=Nikola]

No i might not know how to. I'm no expert. I still score kills in it though. But it can't just be me since I'm one of the few who flys the SU27 on a server at any given time against 10 F15's.

 

It's not just you of course. I'm probably worse than you.

[wilky510]

I read somebody asking about the R-27EA - my question would be why they don't add the R-27EM? Should be available in Russian Air force magazines, and 170Kms range could rebalance the current disadvantage with Aim120 a little. There are also the active versions of the R-27, although I believe that Russia hasn't bought them, iirc they have been deployed by China on its SU-27/SU-30 variants; and with 1.5 version China is now present in DCS...

Rebalance a little bit? The AIM-120C has a range of like 35-40km MAX in this game. How would giving Su-27's a missile that can go 170KM's range rebalance the sim a 'little bit'?...

[Exorcet]

Yeah i love having all the planes of different era's. I own nearly all the DCS modules. Just to have good multiplayer you need to planes that are closely matched on both sides unless you just want to fight f15 against f15. I love flying the SU27 but i get sick of being stuck in the mountains. I'm just starting to learn the F15 lately and the Aim120C is kick ass and once it goes pitbull you can go full defensive and more or less garunteed the kill.

 

I think both sides in FC3 are more than balanced enough for fair missions. The F-15 should win head to head BVR, but with most games involving teams, it shouldn't be 1 v1 all the time. Even without TS, the in game chat is good enough to get around flying completely alone. If you really want ARH on your side when flying the Flanker, call a MiG to back you up.

 

Really though, I think the biggest element of balance comes down to mission design. The Red side should have home field and an advantage when it comes to SAM's. Blue should have some offensive objective, like destroying a specific airbase, or something. Basically, put them in a situation where they need to lean on their strengths to win.

 

80's style missions are welcome as well. The 51st server used to host them all the time, and I enjoyed them. There was also the R-77 mod adopted by the 104th which I wouldn't mind seeing return.

[Cik]

it's balanced enough but could be better. in particular flanker indications in terms of rangetape are basically laughable. if you are high and at burner you will get LA at like 50 km which is impossible. i'd like to see a slight buff to the ER at least, as it is it's nearly impossible to kill an opponent that actually wants to survive. you can fire in good parameter and your PK approaches 0% if he employs even basic defensive maneuvers. if you fire the amraam at the same % of RMAX your PK is much, much higher.

 

small effective range increase for ER wouldn't be amiss, scaling as you get higher and faster. as it is your range advantage is only really on paper, unless you have a significant altitude/energy advantage your range isn't really that much farther than an AMRAAM, and the seeking on the AMRAAM isn't a bad joke.

[DarkFire]

In all fairness I'm having quite a bit more success with the Russian missiles in 1.5 beta. I just re-ran one of my old missions "In Defence of Sochi" and got the following hit rates:

 

R-73: 1 out of 2.

R-27ET: 2 out of 2.

R-27ER: 3 out of 4.

 

Very pleasantly surprising!

 

Apologies for not attaching a track file, for some reason the game crashed once I hit "exit mission" though this was probably caused by not having loaded and saved the mission in the editor under 1.5.

 

ACMI attached.

 

Slightly off topic: I can't get over how damned good this game looks with the new engine! Awesome work by the team at ED!!

[Exorcet]

it's balanced enough but could be better. in particular flanker indications in terms of rangetape are basically laughable. if you are high and at burner you will get LA at like 50 km which is impossible.

 

The range tape seems accurate to me, you need to keep in mind that max range is for a non maneuvering target. See the track attached, Eagle kill at 50 km.

 

i'd like to see a slight buff to the ER at least, as it is it's nearly impossible to kill an opponent that actually wants to survive. you can fire in good parameter and your PK approaches 0% if he employs even basic defensive maneuvers. if you fire the amraam at the same % of RMAX your PK is much, much higher.

Given that this is a sim, I don't really want balance buffs. I'm not sure I agree here either, as the AMRAAM certainly has its own issues even if the Pk is higher. The ER does actually have better flight performance in some cases:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1992715&postcount=1138

 

small effective range increase for ER wouldn't be amiss, scaling as you get higher and faster. as it is your range advantage is only really on paper, unless you have a significant altitude/energy advantage your range isn't really that much farther than an AMRAAM, and the seeking on the AMRAAM isn't a bad joke.

 

Missile guidance is one of the things that needs to be tuned, and if something is changed, I'd rather it be guidance that missile flight performance as the guidance is definitely not 100% correct at the moment.

R-27ER.trk

[Cik]

 

Given that this is a sim, I don't really want balance buffs. I'm not sure I agree here either, as the AMRAAM certainly has its own issues even if the Pk is higher. The ER does actually have better flight performance in some cases:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1992715&postcount=1138

 

i don't know, FC3 is a sim no debate, but at the same time 'buffs' aren't exactly proscribed just IMO as none of the missile modelling seems terribly realistic; if the ER were just a terrible missile and it was nigh worthless against a maneuvering target then i'd be okay with it as it is, but i've seen no evidence that that's actually the case.

 

Missile guidance is one of the things that needs to be tuned, and if something is changed, I'd rather it be guidance that missile flight performance as the guidance is definitely not 100% correct at the moment.

 

no argument it's just frustrating sometimes because the only real way to engage is to fly high and fast, fire early and then do a hard disengage. if you get within a certain distance you will be sucked into the AMRAAM vortex, a capability you simply don't have. even if you play the BVR game perfectly your chance of killing any sort of moderately skilled opponent with 6x ER on your sukhoi is almost zero as chaff resistance as of 1.2.16 is very low.

 

1.5 may be different, i haven't actually gotten a chance for real MP field testing because every time i enter my password it crashes :^)

[*Rage*]

In all fairness I'm having quite a bit more success with the Russian missiles in 1.5 beta. I just re-ran one of my old missions "In Defence of Sochi" and got the following hit rates:

 

R-73: 1 out of 2.

R-27ET: 2 out of 2.

R-27ER: 3 out of 4.

 

Very pleasantly surprising!

 

 

1.5 currently has non functioning countermeasures. ie they are decorative flares and chaff only! Hence the impressive pK.

 

I hope they stay closer to this than in 1.2 as now firing a non amraam missile has meaning, purpose and consequence.

[sLYFa]

1.5 currently has non functioning countermeasures. ie they are decorative flares and chaff only! Hence the impressive pK.

I know ppl are not satisfied with flare and chaff effectivity, but saying they are "decorative" is wrong. Especially flares do a good job at defeating ET´s at medium range (even in 1.5).

[blkspade]

1.5 currently has non functioning countermeasures. ie they are decorative flares and chaff only! Hence the impressive pK.

 

I hope they stay closer to this than in 1.2 as now firing a non amraam missile has meaning, purpose and consequence.

 

I still don't see the countermeasures as completely non functional. The missiles themselves seem to have a better ability to reacquire targets. Looking at 120s in tacview it looks like at times it will slightly begin to misguide as it bites on chaff, just to shift back into lead pursuit on the target if it has the energy. I've watched an R60 fired at me by the AI going for a flare just to turn back into me for throttling back up too early. In 1.2, once you could see a missile fail to guide at you, you knew it wasn't coming back. Just yesterday I evaded 3/4 TOR launches. One of which I feel should definitely have been able to kill me. Either it was pure luck, or the chaff does a little something. ERs still don't scare me. At least not the ones fired from lawn mowers.

[tovivan]

Wow, this thread has certainly taken on a life of it's own. :)

 

In regards to MP servers... yeah, the deathmatch is a big problem. A problem though that I think could be in big part fixed with this simple script:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=110837&page=2

 

Not just that, it would give incentive/motivation/reason for people to even fly choppers and incentive to PROTECT those choppers... which would mean more teamwork than now. So, would help prevent deathmatch on two fronts. Lose all choppers = lose the game.

 

This script would maybe temporarily fix the issues stemming from the missile-issues until they get fixed (if they get fixed?).

 

Btw., 51st guys, any idea when your server is going 1.5?

[*Rage*]

51st guys, any idea when your server is going 1.5?

 

1.5 is a little unstable in MP and has a few other significant issues so not just yet!

[tovivan]

1.5 is a little unstable in MP and has a few other significant issues so not just yet!

 

Just a little, eh? :P On the level of Vesuv in 79 AD. xD Random freezes, random and very frequent CTDs...

 

I would go back to 1.2, but sadly my connection is too slow to make it sensible, so I'm holding on and hoping for fixes before New Years.

[DarkFire]

1.5 currently has non functioning countermeasures. ie they are decorative flares and chaff only! Hence the impressive pK.

 

I hope they stay closer to this than in 1.2 as now firing a non amraam missile has meaning, purpose and consequence.

 

Yes, I read the relevant thread after posting my original comment and had one of those "Oh dear, I haz a sad :cry:" moments when I realised what's actually going on. Like you said, at the moment launching an R-27ER results in a reaction that isn't "Yeah, whatever" any more and is welcome to see. Let's hope that the R-27's actually get looked at again as part of the 1.5 --> 2.0 development process.

[tovivan]

DCS 1.5 open beta hotfix 2

AI

• Fixed issue with countermeasures that have no impact on missile tracking.
  

 

Has anyone tested this? Are we back to square one or some middle ground?

[Frostie]

Has anyone tested this? Are we back to square one or some middle ground?

 

Square one, you can face off 1v1, Flanker v Flanker and it will end up a gun fight.