Nedum Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 I want to chime in. First of all, its a SIM. There will never be a perfect solution to spotting distance until the sims get to the point where we are actually flying around the sky in real aircraft, and that ain't happening. Secondly, military aircraft are CAMOFLAUGED. They are supposed to be hard to see. I fly LSA all the time and on a clear sunny day I can spot a R22 @ 3,000 feet from around ten miles if the sun is behind me. There are tricks one can use in real life that just don't work on a monitor. I personally think the update and solution is a real step in the right direction, and it's still in beta. I'm sure it will be refined. DCS is the best and really the only sim of this caliber, and I appreciate the hell out of all the work that is put into it. Did you read what we have written? We know this all very well and because of this we did a comparison with the old one! 1.5 has a new LOD system which makes it more hard to spot objects as with the old version. What is so hard to understand that? The engine does not show the objects at the same range at the same size as before anymore! It's not even the haze overall, it's like that the object size will be reduces with less steps much earlier and that even we/I use the "large" option. Please test it by yourself and please don't tell people how dumb they are or at last, don't write your postings in such a manner that it must look like that you think that we are all idiots! 1 CPU: AMD Ryzen 7950X3D, System-RAM: 64 GB DDR5, GPU: nVidia 4090, Monitor: LG 38" 3840*1600, VR-HMD: Pimax Crystal, OS: Windows 11 Pro, HD: 2*2TB Samsung M.2 SSD HOTAS Throttle: TM Warthog Throttle with TM F16 Grip, Orion2 Throttle with F15EX II Grip with Finger Lifts HOTAS Sticks: TM AVA Base with TM F16 Stick, FSSB R3 Base with TM F16 Stick Rudder: WinWing Orion Metal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shagrat Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 I don't read any "idiots" or "dumb" statements in his post and I can hardly interpret his arguments in that way. I personally tested the visibility of the new system quite a lot, for aircraft and ground objects, and I cannot see the problems you describe. In the old LOD (unless you used things like ACG mod) the objects just disappeared at a predefined distance set in the object definition. I fixed some LOD in the old system for infantry myself, which were simple disappearing at 1.001m and popping up again at 1.000m. Now with the new, especially "enlarged" settings it is definitely better. Yes, the spotting of a P-51D @ 10nm is hard and the new engine's lighting makes it difficult to spot a single dot at that distance sometimes, but at least there is a dot! In the old engine the planes simply disappeared. So, just because you can't spot the dots at distances where even real life pilots would have difficulties tonspot a plane, does not mean there is something wrong in general. I admit, against ground textures it is difficult to track planes and a reflection effect, or a bit more contrast for the objects at distances below 3nm might be worth a shot, but the haze and lighting on long distance is quite realistic and again, I think it is an acceptable compromise, how it's done now. Shagrat - Flying Sims since 1984 - Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VPForce Rhino Base & VIRPIL T50 CM2 Stick on 200mm curved extension | VIRPIL T50 CM2 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawlcat Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 (edited) Bumping this back up because this is a pretty major issue for people with large resolutions. This image is taken on a 5760x1080 resolution, with a large Yak-40 target locked at around 7km (3.77 nm) away. The target was cold and I was following directly. This target is not obscured by the cloud as the cloud is around 15km away in this photo. If anything it should be easier to see the aircraft and its black smoke against the cloud. This image was even with the minSize of the imposters set to 10 so its larger than the normal setting of 5. There is little, if any, change for me between 5 and 10. Edited October 17, 2015 by Lawlcat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucic Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 Bumping this back up because this is a pretty major issue for people with large resolutions. This image is taken on a 5760x1080 resolution, with a large Yak-40 target locked at around 7km (3.77 nm) away. The target was cold and I was following directly. This target is not obscured by the cloud as the cloud is around 15km away in this photo. If anything it should be easier to see the aircraft and its black smoke against the cloud. This image was even with the minSize of the imposters set to 10 so its larger than the normal setting of 5. There is little, if any, change for me between 5 and 10. http://i.imgur.com/34GqTsu.jpg[/] Correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I know any old generation particle asset like the clouds may cause flickering and clipping/obscuring issues. If I'm correct, any test regarding visibility should be conducted with this variable removed, I.e. without any clouds in the way. F-4E Phantom module for sale -25% non-Steam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shagrat Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 Bumping this back up because this is a pretty major issue for people with large resolutions. This image is taken on a 5760x1080 resolution, with a large Yak-40 target locked at around 7km (3.77 nm) away. The target was cold and I was following directly. This target is not obscured by the cloud as the cloud is around 15km away in this photo. If anything it should be easier to see the aircraft and its black smoke against the cloud. This image was even with the minSize of the imposters set to 10 so its larger than the normal setting of 5. There is little, if any, change for me between 5 and 10. According to Andrew Watsons experiment (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0005594). This is absolutely realistic. See the Fig.16 Chart for the erj145 and keep in mind these distances even vary largely with changing conditions. So with a full 1.0 contrast you mayspot a "known" Yak-40 at around 7-8km. Now with "mostly white plane" against "white cloud" plus sun lighting plane up from the side, I would assume less contrast here. So with a contrast of about 0.5 or even less you should be able to spot this kind of plane at around 5km... So, you did already take care and "enhanced" your eyesight to a 7-8km spotting capability by tweaking the system? As reference my other post about A. Watsons study sponsored by NASA. http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2511227&postcount=48 Shagrat - Flying Sims since 1984 - Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VPForce Rhino Base & VIRPIL T50 CM2 Stick on 200mm curved extension | VIRPIL T50 CM2 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kripzoo Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 I noticed that this "model visibility"- setting works fine with ground vehicles, but with aircrafts it could be little better.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyusuf Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 I'm still noticing spotting issues in 1.2.16 ... Eg, being unable to spot an F-16 at the merge that is going full afterburner - and that too after pausing the simp and looking for that little sucker in external view. Camouflage is one thing - but some of my experiences are pure si-fi out of harry potter. Not that I'm complaining ... Glad we have a pause button for spotting :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkateZilla Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 This Section isnt for 1.2.16 Windows 10 Pro, Ryzen 2700X @ 4.6Ghz, 32GB DDR4-3200 GSkill (F4-3200C16D-16GTZR x2), ASRock X470 Taichi Ultimate, XFX RX6800XT Merc 310 (RX-68XTALFD9) 3x ASUS VS248HP + Oculus HMD, Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS + MFDs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talisman_VR Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 (edited) 'Spotting' and being 'able to see' the contact air to air are different things. In other words, if it is not physically visible on the screen then the contact is not able to be seen and therefore there is no chance, I say again, no chance of spotting it. There is no skill involved in trying to spot a contact that is not physically visible on the screen as it is impossible to spot anyway, as it is not there to see, so no skill is involved. If the contact is actually able to be seen on the screen, than there may be some skill/method applied in order to actually spot it. I know this is stating the obvious, but I raise it because the correct use of words and the correct reading of words in context is important in these discussions for effective communication. In good visibility, if an aircraft contact is not displayed on the screen at a distance representative of what can normally be seen in real life, then there is an issue to be addressed. Simples. Problem for devs I suppose is that there are lots of different screens in use. Edited October 17, 2015 by 56RAF_Talisman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shagrat Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 Absolutely right, that is exactly what the model visibilty feature does, it superimposes a "marker" over the plane that makes it possible to spot it! And again, it does that at very realistic distances... Shagrat - Flying Sims since 1984 - Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VPForce Rhino Base & VIRPIL T50 CM2 Stick on 200mm curved extension | VIRPIL T50 CM2 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyusuf Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 (edited) during the so called world war (the real one is still coming) very often initial spotting was a glint or a flash of light, or maybe smoke trails or contrails - but not the actual aircraft. It would be added immersion if the visual modelling for spotting was given the same attention as radar modelling (BVR) Having said that which variable in which file needs to be edited to change the distance at which the model is not drawn anymore? Thanks Edited October 18, 2015 by eyusuf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shagrat Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 (edited) The new "Model visibility" option already solves that. The problem with the "old" LOD was, the engine calculated airplane size versus distance as a result against pixel size. So when the object was "smaller" than the calculated "pixel" size, the model was not "visible" (no pixel). With the "Model visibility" option since DCS World 1.5 OpenBeta there is a superimposed dot/blob that represents the aircraft in the distance and fades into the background. Only at close distance the actual LOD is used now. You can edit the superimposed dot, but there is no file validation in MP, currently. So while it may work at the moment (cheating by enlarging the blobs etc.) ED will lock this down again, for sure. So my advise would be not to get used too much to editing and tweaking critical lua files. ;) EDIT: ...I agree, a more pronounced reflection effect for cockpit glass and metal would be a great addition. We have a limited "reflection" on glass panes, already! (Try circling around the HMMVV in F2 view and watch the front windshield glasses). Yet, a more visible "glint" or "flashing" effect would be a great help... Edited October 18, 2015 by shagrat Shagrat - Flying Sims since 1984 - Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VPForce Rhino Base & VIRPIL T50 CM2 Stick on 200mm curved extension | VIRPIL T50 CM2 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyusuf Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 I'm sure severman or whatever lua script is used on multiplayer can be used as an effective gate to block cheaters Having said that is there any way to to edit the LOD or distance at which the model is not drawn any longer in 1.2.16 As things currently stand I can see trees at 7 + clicks (depending on the graphic setting), but bogeys seem to just do a Harry Pottet on me ... every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shagrat Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 I'm sure severman or whatever lua script is used on multiplayer can be used as an effective gate to block cheaters Having said that is there any way to to edit the LOD or distance at which the model is not drawn any longer in 1.2.16 As things currently stand I can see trees at 7 + clicks (depending on the graphic setting), but bogeys seem to just do a Harry Pottet on me ... every time. You can try to edit the <objectname>.lods in .../DCS World/Bazar/World/Shapes/ But I'm pretty sure it will break Multiplayer in 1.2.16 as it has an integrity check. 1.5 will get an integrity check later (I read something like that in the announcements). In general the LOD in 1.2.16 seems to be set at 50km, but as the old render process is not showing any pixel, when they are "larger" as the calculated plane size, this does not help on lower resolution. 1 Shagrat - Flying Sims since 1984 - Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VPForce Rhino Base & VIRPIL T50 CM2 Stick on 200mm curved extension | VIRPIL T50 CM2 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyusuf Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 thanks. Made sense to me. can nvidias DSR (dynamic super resolution) help with this - I think ill give DSR another try. But before I do whats the officianados take on DSR? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shagrat Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 No "official", but my personal experience before changing to "native 4k" was a pretty good one. DSR improved spotting a bit and I could reduce FXAA and MSAA. Shagrat - Flying Sims since 1984 - Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VPForce Rhino Base & VIRPIL T50 CM2 Stick on 200mm curved extension | VIRPIL T50 CM2 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyusuf Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 ill give DSR another try with 1.5, but its playing havoc with radio menus and message text in 1.2.16 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shagrat Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 You need to adjust Desktop resolution to DSR resolution to fix that! Shagrat - Flying Sims since 1984 - Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VPForce Rhino Base & VIRPIL T50 CM2 Stick on 200mm curved extension | VIRPIL T50 CM2 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyusuf Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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