1.5.1.46722.87 Model Visibility removal

[SharpeXB]

Well that description isn't how the Model Enlargement is currently. As it is done now it's essentially another form of icon. That's fine as it helps those who are challenged by this. But the effect is too pronounced for realistic scenarios and therefore needs to be a server setting. That's an opinion of the majority of the players who've tried it.

[Majime]

therefore needs to be a server setting.

Why does it need to be a server setting? Explain why enlarged view models need to be a server setting but zooming does not need to be. Explain why using a larger resolution or multiple monitors does not need to be a server setting. Explain why using Track IR does not need to be a server setting. You're arguing to get rid of something because you don't like it with no valid reasoning behind it.

 

That's an opinion of the majority of the players who've tried it.

I see you're an expert at spewing logical fallacies.

[SharpeXB]

Why does it need to be a server setting? Explain why enlarged view models need to be a server setting but zooming does not need to be.

Well don't argue with me, remember I haven't even used it. Go back and read all these posts. I think it's a nearly unanimous opinion, That it needs to be server controlled.

Because the way the setting is currently, it literally replaces the radar and ground controller interaction that's supposed to be used in DCS. The A-10 in those screenshots doesn't even need to call the JTAC, he can just see all the targets from 35km away. That's not suitable for a realistic scenario. For air-to-air action Beyond Visual Range combat would have no meaning.

The Zoom View is basically designed to simulate 20/20 vision for a player on an average monitor. It doesn't bestow superhuman abilities, pretty much you can't see information which a real pilot wouldn't. You can't read license plates on the ground vehicles or anything. So it's legit.

And if the Enlarged Models were tweaked down to a realistic degree, then people would complain that they can't see anything and we are back where we started. And there's no way to agree upon what a realistic degree of enlargement is because there's too great a range of hardware.

So it's fine as another type of icon and that's where it is currently on the game settings. But it's in the section along with unlimited ammo and labels. So you can see where this is headed.

Edited November 21, 2015 by SharpeXB

[Why485]

that description isn't how the Model Enlargement is currently

 

Wow, well. Man, it's too bad that it's in its final form and never going to change from here on out. What a missed opportunity.

[DieHard]

The danger is that overly masochistic server admins would completely remove all enlargement options and keep the visual spotting on pre-1.5 which was broken as hell. Also take note the default ground texture with its noise pattern acts as additional camouflage which makes spotting ground targets much harder than it would be in real life.

And the human eye can adapt its focus, which is a very hard thing to do on a computer monitor. That is why DCS needs enlargement options. A tank is quite a visible target on an european landscape unless it is behind some camo netting or in a forest.

 

And if all comes to break, a bit too easy spotting is always better than a bit too hard spotting. This does not affect BVR combat because it is all just blips on a HUD but in a Mig15 or a ww2 plane scanning for a speck of dirt moving against the specks of dirt on the canopy is very hard

 

The enlargement option to physically ID aircraft by naked eyeball totally negates the stealthiness of clandestine helicopter ops like what I like to do in MP (Multi-Player). If this option remains in game, flying any helicopter where stealth needs to be an option as to performing a mission objective in MP, there is no sense of even entering onto a server.

 

I guess I will go buy a fishing boat and change hobbies.

 

Whomever dreamed this up just killed the game (sim).

[Why485]

The enlargement option to physically ID aircraft by naked eyeball totally negates the stealthiness of clandestine helicopter ops like what I like to do in MP (Multi-Player). If this option remains in game, flying any helicopter where stealth needs to be an option as to performing a mission objective in MP, there is no sense of even entering onto a server.

 

I guess I will go buy a fishing boat and change hobbies.

 

Whomever dreamed this up just killed the game (sim).

 

If the values were just slightly different, what you just said wouldn't happen. The people who are claiming the sky is falling because the current settings, which are the opposite of what the old settings were, are very short-sighted and making the assumption that the current values are how it's going to stay.

 

ED is probably messing around to try and find good settings. I guarantee this is going to get reduced, closer to how it originally was, and then made a server setting on top of that.

[SharpeXB]

Wow, well. Man, it's too bad that it's in its final form and never going to change from here on out. What a missed opportunity.

Well we shall see. It may get removed altogether.

But I can see the progression clear enough. They started with a slight enhancement that was included under graphic settings i.e. Not server controlled. The problem was that many people complained that it wasn't enough help. Indeed it was only at most a 5 pixel sprite, so yeah it wasn't. And the reaction also was that it should be server controlled as a game aid. Ok fine. In for a penny, in for a pound. If it's a game aid then make it a really effective one. And move it over to that section. Now there's no question what it's for and how it will get controlled. Not a grey area. Black or white.

And I don't know how much more sophisticated effort this feature will be allotted. Really DCS is a hardcore sim and so much of the work ED does goes into much more complex aspects. They don't spend much time worrying about gameplay aids. It's easier to put this thing into a very certain category than continue to tweak it forever especially when that effort won't stop any of the complaining which is never ending. They'll never make everyone happy. And DCSW 2.0 is apparently arriving in about a week. They've got more important things to work on than another style of icon.

 

I guarantee this is going to get reduced, closer to how it originally was,

Nope because then some people would complain that they can't see anything all over again. Why would they backtrack to what they already tried?

 

It's an icon.

 

And it's server controlled

 

You all asked for it and you got what you wanted. Move on...

Edited November 21, 2015 by SharpeXB

[Why485]

Well we shall see. It may get removed altogether.

 

That seems highly unlikely.

 

Really DCS is a hardcore sim

 

This is exactly why it should be in the game. Literally every other sim out there has some solution to the visibility problem and until 1.5, DCS was the only one that didn't. It's been a point of contention with the engine for a decade now.

 

Please, stop posting and end the circular and illogical argument that you just won't let go. I'm really tired of you filling up the thread with your biased, short sighted, and second-hand views on a feature that you are not even interested in using.

 

Others were arguing for closing the thread. Maybe that's appropriate if you just won't stop and let people discuss it.

Edited November 21, 2015 by Why485

[msalama]

I guarantee this is going to get reduced, closer to how it originally was, and then made a server setting on top of that.

 

If this really is how they're going to do it, niema problema. And I for one will most likely not be using any enhancements whatsoever, because sim objects seem just a bit more visible with basic settings _anyway_ in v1.5.

 

So yah, make this a host/server setting and everyone wins IMO.

[theGozr]

Yes agree I never noticed the large icon from far away but yes I did and it's bad..

[SharpeXB]

This is exactly why it should be in the game. Literally every other sim out there has some solution to the visibility problem and until 1.5, DCS was the only one that didn't.

No other flight sim today renders objects noticeably out of scale like this. If they do some sort of sprite or imposter then it's transparent to the player. Plus there are no settings in other flight sims to make this effect larger or smaller. It's just there and everybody hardly notices it.

 

If DCS made a really unobtrusive system like these other sims, that would be great. Except people would still howl and complain that they can't see anything. So a decade of complaining gets you this system DCS has now. Its fine but it needs a server option to turn it off.

[xXNightEagleXx]

No other flight sim today renders objects noticeably out of scale like this. If they do some sort of sprite or imposter then it's transparent to the player. Plus there are no settings in other flight sims to make this effect larger or smaller. It's just there and everybody hardly notices it.

 

If DCS made a really unobtrusive system like these other sims, that would be great. Except people would still howl and complain that they can't see anything. So a decade of complaining gets you this system DCS has now. Its fine but it needs a server option to turn it off.

 

You have already made your point for something that is still in BETA, why keep insisting on your idea each post? It is about giving a FEEDBACK not PROPAGANDA, like you are doing. You didn't even give an appropriate amount of time to dev works on any change. Each 5 post, one is your and this is not only unproductive but also annoying (already saw this behavior of your on another forum....the same of you pushing your idea to the folks over and over). If you don't have any addition (mathematic or scientific) to support your idea, why keep repeating the same useless thing?

 

Moreover there is a very important thing to keep in mind while you rant about this.........THIS IS A DAMN BETA, the phase where dev tries different thing and receives FEEDBACKS (the only changes is that this is an open beta, instead of old closed beta). If you don't like temporary stuff or things that doesn't work properly stay away from the BETA....wait....you are not signed for the BETA but still complain about it......WHY ARE YOU STILL COMPLAINING? What you are doing/saying is "DEVS DON''T EVEN TRY SOMETHING THAT I DON'T LIKE, I DON'T CARE IF IT IS STILL A TEST PHASE I JUST DON'T WANT YOU TO GO AGAINST ANYTHING I WANT EVEN FOR A WHILE".

 

This is so damn boring and annoying.

 

PS: I suggest you to stay away from any topic about DCS 2.0 since that will be released as ALPHA (which is even more unstable and more testing contents).....

Edited November 21, 2015 by xXNightEagleXx

[SharpeXB]

It is about giving a FEEDBACK

Right. So I'll keep providing it.

 

The trouble with forum feedback is that it's only from a few dozen people out of the several hundred thousand who own this game.

 

Beta testing should be to iron out actual bugs, not run a forum plebiscite on features. IMO

A forum isn't really a representative sample. So forgive me for stating a contrary position, somebody needs to.

Edited November 21, 2015 by SharpeXB

[xXNightEagleXx]

Right. So I'll keep providing it.

 

Providing a feedback is like "objects are too large" and that ends there, repeating the same thing doesn't solve anything or add more feedback. Besides, you are not signed to beta why are you trying to provide a feedback for something that you didn't try just because you heard or saw something......so damn pointless

[SharpeXB]

repeating the same thing doesn't solve anything or add more feedback.

Apparently some things need repeating.

[xXNightEagleXx]

Apparently some things need repeating.

 

Only if has passed two or three months since the feedback. By the way, it was you that a few months ago was saying about accepting the dev decisions (supporting your idea) and provide them enough time because the game might evolve to what the complainers was wanting and now you do the opposite....be more objective here....use your own words as advice to your own

 

 

I don't intent to reply to you anymore, at least on this topic, since I already know how you are and I just made my point...there is no reason to keep insisting.

[SharpeXB]

Good. I'm getting tired also so I can sign off with a final opinion as well.

There's only two possible solutions:

 

"Full Real Mode" and "Gameplay Aid"

 

Full Real Mode:

- Players cannot easily see other objects at unrealistic distances

- A reasonable difficulty of seeing other objects is preserved, since it's vital to realistic action.

- Players never perceive objects out of scale with their surroundings and a perception of distance is possible

- There are no user-adjustable settings for object visibility like On, Off, Small, Medium or Large

- The effect is transparent to the user.

 

Gameplay Aid:

- Anything else besides the above. There is no realistic definition necessary. DCS has all sorts of gameplay aids like Takeoff Assist or Labels etc. They're perfectly fine and necessary but it's not worth trying to argue about how realistic or unrealistic they are. Realistic already has a set definition above. A gameplay aid can be whatever it wants to be, the player can set for themselves any level of it they want. But that range of choices is problematic in multiplayer, literally allowing the player to set how large they want other objects in the game to appear clearly falls in the category of Gameplay Aid.

 

Therefore servers always have a setting to control the use of the Gameplay Aids, since they are user adjustable. Everyone likes to play online with a known level of advantages.

 

So far the above seems to be the direction this feature is headed so I don't see any trouble with what ED is doing.

Edited November 21, 2015 by SharpeXB

[Ultra]

Ignoring all the arguing ;).......

I think maybe the best scenario would be settings based on monitor resolutions. There could be different settings for different resolutions. Maybe just 3 or 4. One of VR, one for 1080, and one or two for larger resolutions, and also the option to turn it off. Servers could also have the option forced if they want, just to give the server owners some more control over it.

 

In a perfect world there would be a way to not allow people to use the settings that are lower than there res, to prevent people cheating with it, but I don't know if they could effectively implement a lock like that. People could probably always change the code to cheat. (This is another reason why there should be server side control)

 

Then these settings could be tweaked by user feedback until the majority are happy with them.

[wumas0201]

Good. I'm getting tired also so I can sign off with a final opinion as well.

There's only two possible solutions:

 

"Full Real Mode" and "Gameplay Aid"

 

Full Real Mode:

- Players cannot easily see other objects at unrealistic distances

- A reasonable difficulty of seeing other objects is preserved, since it's vital to realistic action.

- Players never perceive objects out of scale with their surroundings and a perception of distance is possible

- There are no user-adjustable settings for object visibility like On, Off, Small, Medium or Large

- The effect is transparent to the user.

 

Gameplay Aid:

- Anything else besides the above. There is no realistic definition necessary. DCS has all sorts of gameplay aids like Takeoff Assist or Labels etc. They're perfectly fine and necessary but it's not worth trying to argue about how realistic or unrealistic they are. Realistic already has a set definition above. A gameplay aid can be whatever it wants to be, the player can set for themselves any level of it they want. But that range of choices is problematic in multiplayer, literally allowing the player to set how large they want other objects in the game to appear clearly falls in the category of Gameplay Aid.

 

Therefore servers always have a setting to control the use of the Gameplay Aids, since they are user adjustable. Everyone likes to play online with a known level of advantages.

 

So far the above seems to be the direction this feature is headed so I don't see any trouble with what ED is doing.

 

+1

as a MIG21 pilot, the current setting makes me hard to engage enemy.it is known that the advantage of MIG21 is killing enemy in stealth. but now my enemy can see me easily, I can not hide myself as before, it makes me like a delicious fish in multiplayer`s world.

I also found that with large model setting, players seem not search target by the radar they own, but always by their eagle`s eyes that the setting gives.

Fortunately we are just in BETA TEST now, so I believe that ED will give us satisfied settings for visibility in the future.

By the way, I prefer the settings of visibility in DCS1.5 rather than in current DCS1.51, because in previous version, I could see larger plane like F15 and SU27 far away with "Spirit Dot" , but they could not see my tiny plane easily. it brought me a lot of advantage and made some balance between MIG21 and 3th generation fighter, So I selfishly want that setting back~~

Edited November 22, 2015 by wumas0201

[Slipp]

Current model visibility is great!

We've waited years for this and now you want for it to be removed?

 

Please... :doh:

[SharpeXB]

Current model visibility is great!

We've waited years for this and now you want for it to be removed?

 

Please... :doh:

No I don't want it to be removed. But it needs to be a server option. It's already a gameplay aid like icons which are also server controlled so that a safe assumption.

[PiedDroit]

it is known that the advantage of MIG21 is killing enemy in stealth. but now my enemy can see me easily, I can not hide myself as before, it makes me like a delicious fish in multiplayer`s world.

I also found that with large model setting, players seem not search target by the radar they own, but always by their eagle`s eyes that the setting gives.

The problem is about figuring out what is actually realistic, not what gives or removes edge.

Wether it was easier or not for you to come in unseen - or for the others to see or not see you - should not a matter of personal taste.

Maybe a realistic setting will still make you an easy prey :noexpression:

 

No I don't want it to be removed. But it needs to be a server option. It's already a gameplay aid like icons which are also server controlled so that a safe assumption.

I agree the server should be able to lock the model visibility setting to a fixed choice (e.g. Small or Medium).

Edited November 22, 2015 by PiedDroit

[SharpeXB]

I also found that with large model setting, players seem not search target by the radar they own, but always by their eagle`s eyes that the setting gives.

Right, this is why Enlarged Models cannot be used on "Full Real" servers

 

The problem is about figuring out what is actually realistic, not what gives or removes edge.

Wether it was easier or not for you to come in unseen - or for the others to see or not see you - should not a matter of personal taste.

Maybe a realistic setting will still make you an easy prey :noexpression:

There is no "realistic" level of Enlarged Models and there doesn't have to be. It's a Gameplay Aid. For Full Realism it must be switched off.

Edited November 22, 2015 by SharpeXB

[PiedDroit]

Right, this is why Enlarged Models cannot be used on "Full Real" servers

Let's hope they will come up with is a "Realistic" setting, resolution-based that will make it realistic for everyone :music_whistling:

That's the main hurdle with the current implementation, a given setting will looks OK on low resolution (and VR) but not on higher resolution which prevents using an identical setting for everyone.

I know this is a repeat, but we shouldn't settle with a lock-able setting with current implementation, as this will invariably lead to the feature removed from most servers.

 

There is no "realistic" level of Enlarged Models and there doesn't have to be. It's a Gameplay Aid. For Full Realism it must be switched off.

This is well in line with all your posts... Kill it with fire?

Edited November 22, 2015 by PiedDroit

[dburne]

Apparently some things need repeating.

 

Good. I'm getting tired also so I can sign off Therefore servers always have a setting to control the use of the Gameplay Aids, since they are user adjustable. Everyone likes to play online with a known level of advantages.

 

So far the above seems to be the direction this feature is headed so I don't see any trouble with what ED is doing.

 

No I don't want it to be removed. But it needs to be a server option. It's already a gameplay aid like icons which are also server controlled so that a safe assumption.

 

Right, this is why Enlarged Models cannot be used on "Full Real" servers

 

There is no "realistic" level of Enlarged Models and there doesn't have to be. It's a Gameplay Aid. For Full Realism it must be switched off.

 

I think it is a pretty safe bet everyone in this thread knows your feelings about the current iteration in the current beta build.

:thumbup: