Chaff and R27(E)R

[tovivan]

right. Russia no ER, the highlight of their A2A is R-27R. They make ICBM, S-400, IRBIS-E, Proton-M, submarines, Saturn AL-31, OLS and FLIRs, but they do not know how to make ER or something better. Su-35 and in it the pinnacle of technology the Russian army big R-27R, the icing on the cake. R-27R, the pillar of this mighty fighter. :thumbup:

 

You forgot the S-450, the tiny rocket cruisers that took West by surprise, the PAK-FA, the Armata, Kurganets and that other series, plus there was recently a new sub-launched missile and so on. :thumbup:

[*Rage*]

I just read and watched your test cases and replied.

 

I don't think it's fair to say "We performed the most effective defensive maneuver whilst pumping out as much chaff as we can and the missiles were defeated, therefore the game is broken."

 

For example, when there was the bug where IR's rejected all flares, the A-10 pilots were very unhappy when a MANPAD fired at them when idle and dropping 240 flares in 3 seconds and the missile still tracks. It's a similar sort of situation.

 

Your own tracks demonstrate a 30deg offset is enough 75% of the time. And it doesnt even take the chaff to misstrack them now. At 30deg offset even the 'air clutter' is enough. Thank you for adding to the discussion! Ive replied in that thread.

Edited December 18, 2015 by ///Rage

[IASGATG]

It's enough with enough chaff being output yes.

[*Rage*]

In some of those shots the 'air clutter' (yes its ridiculous) is enough. You can clearly see the missile over leads the target ignoring the chaff on its mission to mars.

[Toybasher]

I agree the way chaff works needs to be looked at.

 

SARH missiles can get fooled by chaff (Realistic? I honestly don't know, but if he dumps chaff and it goes over the tracking beam, it shouldn't "Block the beam"), Chaff doesn't show up on radar, (even in the MiG-21 which has ground and cloud reflections shown on it.) and it won't ever break a lock (Which it should, if you're right behind him and he's dumping chaff, the radar will get confused by all the reflections and lose the lock.)

 

And why does chaff come out in little balls? Looks weird!

[SDsc0rch]

to Eagle Dynamics...

 

please please please PLEASE do not listen to silly-villians that do. not. KNOW. what they are commenting on

 

please only regard official documentation, subject matter experts, anecdotal accounts from real-world experiences, published data, and yes even (and this can be dangerous so it should only be used as a last resort when no other source documentation or otherwise credible information are available) "SWAGs" that can be justified with valid assumptions and math/physics to support conclusions

 

NOT the general public who are informed by wikipedia and janes and contractor sales brochures and the nice big picture books that you can buy at barnes & noble for $40

 

please

 

there are those of us who are interested solely in a SIMULATION

 

not a "game"

 

thank you

[Cik]

FC isn't a sim

 

>no avionic simulation

>every missile has the range of an SRM

>historically flight models have been super-arcade

 

i mean, i'd guess that leatherneck did reasonable research on the power and ability of older, mig-21 missiles and it seems like those are more chaff resistant than the 27ER lel

[Sweep]

FC isn't a sim

 

>no avionic simulation

>every missile has the range of an SRM

>historically flight models have been super-arcade

 

i mean, i'd guess that leatherneck did reasonable research on the power and ability of older, mig-21 missiles and it seems like those are more chaff resistant than the 27ER lel

 

Not sure if anyone told you...but the R-3R is massively overperforming in just about all areas (seeker included). :book:

[SDsc0rch]

^^^

 

+1

[*Rage*]

And the (E)R is underperforming in guidance:) And we wont stop testing, discussing and finally lobbying for it to be fixed until it is! The constant counterlobbying and derailing by F15 'advocates' cough cough only strengthens our resolve:)

 

The same for other missiles too.

Edited January 1, 2016 by ///Rage

[Cik]

yeah, all the eagle "advocates" in these threads trying to keep the 27ER from ever becoming a missile that can't be undone by the laziest notch in history are obnoxious.

 

i'm not asking for a 500km 100% PK wonder weapon. in fact, pretty much anything above it's current 0% PK would be great. what is supposed to be a BVR platform being basically incapable of BVR is extraordinarily silly.

[Sweep]

Before anyone misinterprets the following text here, I am NOT trying to fuel the fire...

 

Anyway, I think you guys are overplaying the whole SARH chaff thing...besides chaff that might be out of the field of view/illumination/whatever affecting missile tracking, what the heck is the problem?

 

Y'all can call a few people here Eagle fanboys, but you guys certainly sound like Flanker fanboys.

 

Oh, also...this sounds a lot like a post I made on page 16... :music_whistling:

 

Edit: thx rage...sorta forgot about that post. This thread is going to heck again........................ :(

Edited January 1, 2016 by Sweep
Oops.

[SDsc0rch]

amraams get trashed in the notch and eat chaff too

 

protip: watch a tacview

[*Rage*]

Before anyone misinterprets the following text here, I am NOT trying to fuel the fire...

 

Anyway, I think you guys are overplaying the whole SARH chaff thing...besides chaff that might be out of the field of view/illumination/whatever affecting missile tracking, what the heck is the problem?

 

Y'all can call a few people here Eagle fanboys, but you guys certainly sound like Flanker fanboys.

 

Oh, also...this sounds a lot like a post I made on page 16...

 

Yes it does. From the very same page 16....

 

I really do wonder here, what needs fixing?

 

Just the seeker going after chaff outside seeker FOV thing?

 

Am I missing something?

 

It's a couple things adding up. SARH missiles are currently having a plethora of problems tracking the target. The biggest issue at the moment is that the DnD-Style "Roll to check chaff resiliency" mechanic current makes it possible to evade an R-27R/ER at any range just by spamming chaff.

 

This is unrealistic for a couple reasons:

 

1) Fighter radars and missiles are designed with a certain measure of chaff-resistance, mainly by building a track of the target and ignoring deceleration rates that are impossible for a plane to perform (chaff tends to stop dead in the air within a second or two). In the specific case of the R-27, the missile's mid-course guidance comes via m-link (one-way datalink) from the parent aircraft. The Su-27 generates the updates for this link based on its track of the bandit.

 

2) Since chaff stops moving so quickly, at close ranges and/or flanking aspects, there will quickly become enough angular separation between the parent aircraft that the chaff is either no longer illumated, or moves out of the missile's FoV. This, again, is also somewhere that chaff-rejection programming should tell the missile to ignore the chaff, because a fighter can't go from 1200 km/hr to 10 km/hr in under three seconds without turning into a grease stain.

 

3) the Su-27 is equipped with an EOS targeting system to supplement the radar. in STT mode, the EOS can also track the target based on IR signature. Even a rudimentary tracking program should be able to recognize the difference between a fighter with both radar and IR signature, and a cold bundle of chaff (or the other way around, in the event of flare launch). This would allow the Su-27 radar to be kept on target based on IR sensor returns, further improving chaff-resistance at close range.

 

 

If DCS was correctly simulating these effects, then a defending pilot would be required to not only spam chaff, but to maneuver himself into a relative position that allows him to negate the chaff-resistant features of his opponent's aircraft (IE: make high-G turns to disrupt track building, chose a hard hot or cold aspect to place his aircraft in-line with his chaff bundle, etc). The attacking pilot would then need to maneuver his own bird to try and regain a favourable position/radar picture.

 

This problem is the kissing-cousin of another missile tracking problem that has been plaguing the R-27 for ages, and that is ground-clutter susceptibility. At one point, a few patches ago, it was so bad that I had an AI Su-25 "dodge" my missile simply by "notching" against the sky. No chaff, no maneuvers, just turned 90 degrees and kept flying straight. Unloaded my entire payload, and finally killed him with guns.

 

Either you missed it or ignored it last time the problem was explained to you.

[Cik]

you can trash an AMRAAM if you notch hard and are in clutter, then slam the chaff button a dozen times

 

you can trash an ER against the sky with a tiny token of chaff. you don't even have to notch most times. ER launches from almost any range are a joke.

 

don't even compare these missiles, i mean sure the AMRAAM is missing like half of it's actual range but at least it hits the enemy.

 

BVR in the flanker is a total joke. i dare you to go high sometime in it and see if you can achieve a kill in optimal launch conditions (not that you'll ever reach them without getting a face full of 10 AMRAAM from all the eagles nearby, but still) satisfying all the weapon parameters then firing 4 missiles then getting them all trashed in seconds by halfhearted, sloppy maneuvering by the enemy eagle is disappointing to say the least.

 

if someone could actually point me to a source that says the R27 is actually just a piece of junk that never hits anything, i'd be okay with it; i guess i'd ask "why model the su27 at all then, if it's going to just be hopeless at one of the things it needs to be able to do?" but i'd be fine with it.

 

no source is ever provided though, so my guess is it's at least competent.

 

i understand PK% is traditionally low, but it's probably not THAT low. certainly it's not that low for the AMRAAM. it's high enough that you actually have to defend yourself, for one. which is all i want, baby.

 

that's of course not mentioning the many problems with the chaff modelling already pointed out, which i will leave to smarter men than me.

[Cik]

yeah, if you think the AMRAAM has the same problems as the 27ER you need your head checked.

 

have you ever used this missile in combat?

 

because i've used the AMRAAM and it's a finger of god compared to the 27ER.

 

to reliably dodge a single amraam you need to pump out a fourth of the chaff in the bird, easily. sometimes you will still get hit even if you do everything right.

 

the 27ER can be dodged by chaff alone.

[Sweep]

if someone could actually point me to a source that says the R27 is actually just a piece of junk that never hits anything, i'd be okay with it; i guess i'd ask "why model the su27 at all then, if it's going to just be hopeless at one of the things it needs to be able to do?" but i'd be fine with it.

 

(JOKING) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-27_(air-to-air_missile)#Ethiopia_and_Eritrea (/JOKING)

 

It'd be interesting if research was that easy :(

 

BVR in the flanker is a total joke. i dare you to go high sometime in it and see if you can achieve a kill in optimal launch conditions (not that you'll ever reach them without getting a face full of 10 AMRAAM from all the eagles nearby, but still) satisfying all the weapon parameters then firing 4 missiles then getting them all trashed in seconds by halfhearted, sloppy maneuvering by the enemy eagle is disappointing to say the least.

 

In your scenario here it sounds like you're facing multiple Eagles in your Flanker from BVR...that SHOULD be a death sentence, with or without perfect missiles. Honestly, if its not chaff/beaming/ground clutter defeating your stuff, a half-decent jammer just might, although that's not quite modeled (yet).

 

DLZ's are currently somewhat meaningless due to the kinematic situation, but that's a totally different thread...as is Flanker tactics, actually! ;)

[Cik]

1v1 or many v many the situation is much the same, sweep. playing at a disadvantage is not something i am against as long as the disadvantage is authentic.

 

i have no issue hanging in the dirt if that's what i would be doing real life if i were a hypothetical russian piloting a hypothetical su-27. what i'd like is definite realism or definite balance (even if that turns out to be asymmetric, as it currently is) unfortunately i have neither. what i have is a radar missile that performs about as well as taking potshots through my canopy with a service pistol. at least makarov rounds can't be spoofed by chaff against a clear sky.

[Ironhand]

...i dare you to go high sometime in it and see if you can achieve a kill in optimal launch conditions (not that you'll ever reach them without getting a face full of 10 AMRAAM from all the eagles nearby, but still) satisfying all the weapon parameters then firing 4 missiles then getting them all trashed in seconds by halfhearted, sloppy maneuvering by the enemy eagle is disappointing to say the least.

Sure. I'll post some tracks this afternoon, once I get home from work. I've been able to consistently launch from around 90-100 km for the kill with either the first or 2nd missile against a non-jamming target. That range shortens considerably against a jamming F-15 because of his jammer. To be sure, there are times (rare), when all missiles have missed but there have been more times with a first missile kill.

 

I'm sure you're referring to online combat, while these are SP with 1.5.2. I was just running some half-hearted tests of my own. But you and others are welcome to take a look.

Edited January 2, 2016 by Ironhand

[red_coreSix]

To be honest for me the ER works like it should. I've certainly had times were it went for chaff, a lot actually, but I don't understand all the raging about it. It's still a very deadly weapon if you know what your doing. Even in MP I can reliable kill an F-15 when in Look-up and he's not beaming. And the thing about amraams not going for chaff is simply wrong. I've flown the F-15 in DCS 1.2, 1.5 and 2.0 and they also go for chaff regularly. When the amraam is in look-down the bandit is beaming and chaffing it's almost 100% of the time a miss.

[Sweep]

Remember when the new chaff thread was all about data and knowledge and a funny spaceballs clip about radar jamming?

 

Why don't we go back to that? Or just lock this thread because its really not going anywhere useful?

[*Rage*]

To be honest for me the ER works like it should. I've certainly had times were it went for chaff, a lot actually, but I don't understand all the raging about it. It's still a very deadly weapon if you know what your doing. Even in MP I can reliable kill an F-15 when in Look-up and he's not beaming. And the thing about amraams not going for chaff is simply wrong. I've flown the F-15 in DCS 1.2, 1.5 and 2.0 and they also go for chaff regularly. When the amraam is in look-down the bandit is beaming and chaffing it's almost 100% of the time a miss.

 

Ive not found the ER reliable in even those situations, but if you have tracks tacviews of it working reliably please post them. It may be that network issues are causing misstracks as well.

 

With regards to amramms going for chaff i think in the picture youre painting above it goes for ground clutter rather than chaff. At least the 120c anyway. If you have tracks of it actively diverting to chaff I'd like to see that too (ideally in its own thread).

[Nedum]

Before anyone misinterprets the following text here, I am NOT trying to fuel the fire...

 

Anyway, I think you guys are overplaying the whole SARH chaff thing...besides chaff that might be out of the field of view/illumination/whatever affecting missile tracking, what the heck is the problem?

 

Y'all can call a few people here Eagle fanboys, but you guys certainly sound like Flanker fanboys.

 

Oh, also...this sounds a lot like a post I made on page 16... :music_whistling:

 

Edit: thx rage...sorta forgot about that post. This thread is going to heck again........................ :(

 

Then tell me please for what reason you made a posting without any point for this discussion if not to fuel the fire/insult the people?

All I can read from you are little poking’s in the side of the ones trying to discuss a problem. You never ever did something to show a thing that this is not a problem!

Al I could read was "excuse me, I do not want hurt anyone..." but then you doing it! An excuse isn't one if you use it before you hurt someone!

There are so many tracks here showing the problem and you never ever showed something against those things.

So please be quiet if you have nothing to show and you don’t want to insult the people/fuel the fire.

Thank you Sir!

[Ironhand]

...you can trash an ER against the sky with a tiny token of chaff. you don't even have to notch most times. ER launches from almost any range are a joke....i dare you to go high sometime in it and see if you can achieve a kill in optimal launch conditions....

 

...I'll post some tracks this afternoon, once I get home from work....I'm sure you're referring to online combat, while these are SP with 1.5.2. I was just running some half-hearted tests of my own. But you and others are welcome to take a look.

Some tracks and Tracview files attached. Each ZIP file has a TRK and ACMI.

 

EDIT: Usually, either the first or second missile makes the kill. Sometimes it's the third and, on rare occasion, it takes a fourth.

 

EDIT 2: The reason I'm posting these is to suggest that, at least in SP, chaff rejection is not an issue. If you take these same missions and put the target 5K meters below you, the story is completely different. You will almost always end up in a WVR knife fight and, if you're in the Flanker, it's the R-73 that'll make the kill. It appears that ground clutter interference is much more of an issue than chaff rejection itself.

Edited January 2, 2016 by Ironhand

[Boberro]

I noticed better ER behavior but something else is crashing me.

I am flying 1600 km\h at 12000 meters, happily looking for some n00b to kill.

Found one.

Happily locked and fired.

Sadly watched how the missile loses precious energy.

Missile went almost to 5000 km\h but then lost energy and went dead.

 

When I saw how the missile tried to fight thin air at 12000 alt and how much energy, time has passed till it stabilized I got nervous.

Additionally no lofting make flying at very high alt almost useless, except speed factor of the missile - but it loses it quickly so...