M-2000C & Force Feedback Support

[Rain]

Hello,

 

As an owner of a force feedback stick which is Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2, I would like to know how will it be/feel in M-2000C? Especially since Mirage is using fly-by-wire system.

 

I really hope you will not make a dead stick behavior on this one so the stick feels loose (dead, without motors working and not giving a resistance to the axis movements). And since its fbw system, I would be fine if there is no stick force feedback shaking due to over-g and stall manuevers, if that makes it realistic. But please no dead sticks...

 

Cheers,

Rain

Edited November 22, 2015 by 5./JG11_Rain

[Boss86005]

+1 for force feedback support. I have a Logitech G-940 and love the force feedback when flying.

[zaelu]

+1 I would also want to know details about FFB implementation.

 

Though my G940 has 4 rubber strings that keeps it centered if no forces are applied from motors but they are weak enough to allow easy movement in case of dead stick (like in WW2 planes on the ground).

[Flappie]

Could you show some pics of your rubber mod, please? I had that kind of feature in mind once, but I wasn't sure it would be of any help.

 

And to get back to the topic, I need information about the Mirage FF as well. :)

[WARJUNIOR]

I would like to know about this as well, before I pre-order.

[OnlyforDCS]

I have just now read that Zeus has confirmed that the EFM will ship on BETA. However they have stated that Force Feedback will probably not be supported. I do not know what this means for us FF users, I had hoped that since the plane is a tailless design, and has elevons as its primary pitch actuators, that the aerodynamic design would allow for very distinct control stiffening effects.

 

Im kind of now on the fence about ordering this plane, I do have a backup X52 ready but I love my FFB2 too much to go back to it.... :/

Edited November 23, 2015 by OnlyforDCS

[Zeus67]

Folks, I feel your disappointment but we have a lot of stuff to cover and so little time to meet our schedule. We will provide the support but not in the near time.

 

Also, on a personal note. I've never used a FF system so I cannot test the aircraft with it and will have to purchase one to test. I don't like to deliver untested systems. So be patient and you will have what you want.

[OnlyforDCS]

Folks, I feel your disappointment but we have a lot of stuff to cover and so little time to meet our schedule. We will provide the support but not in the near time.

 

Also, on a personal note. I've never used a FF system so I cannot test the aircraft with it and will have to purchase one to test. I don't like to deliver untested systems. So be patient and you will have what you want.

 

Thanks for the reply Zeus. Can I just add that we don't need an exact replica of the Mirage 2000C feedback system, just something that would approximate a spring based joystick to start with, so that we don't have to fly with limp sticks (heh). If I may suggest maybe you could ask for assistance from Yoyo with the basic implementation or maybe even one of the good samaritans on the forums could pitch in and donate a FFB joystick for the cause. I would do so myself in a heartbeat if I had the spare cash. (I'll preorder the M2000C to start with anyway)

Edited November 23, 2015 by OnlyforDCS

[Flappie]

Thank you, Zeus, that's good to hear. :)

[Flagrum]

Thanks for the reply Zeus. Can I just add that we don't need an exact replica of the Mirage 2000C feedback system, just something that would approximate a spring based joystick to start with, so that we don't have to fly with limp sticks (heh). If I may suggest maybe you could ask for assistance from Yoyo with the basic implementation or maybe even one of the good samaritans on the forums could pitch in and donate a FFB joystick for the cause. I would do so myself in a heartbeat if I had the spare cash. (I'll preorder the M2000C to start with anyway)

Afaik by default FFB sticks emulate conventional spring type sticks. You can usually(?) configure the strenght of that virtual spring with the software that comes with the device (if not already from within the windows control applet). At the very least this is true for the G940, but iirc, the MS FFB2 is behaving similar.

 

So, if they don't support FFB, then FFB sticks will act like spring sticks already. They would have to actively disable the forces to make the stick go limp.

[zerO_crash]

Great to hear, better prep my FFB2 for some over G`s :pilotfly:

[snowsniper]

good news !

 

for first step and beta in december, until it is fully implemented in a next futur,

you can use simFFB.exe ( lauch it before DCS) wich is enough good to simulate a resistance and friction on all axes on my FFB2

can be used to apply constant centering force too

I use it on games like Elite dangerous, and sometimes for Heli.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1394206&postcount=18

[Moos_tachu]

I have just now read that Zeus has confirmed that the EFM will ship on BETA. However they have stated that Force Feedback will probably not be supported. I do not know what this means for us FF users, I had hoped that since the plane is a tailless design, and has elevons as its primary pitch actuators, that the aerodynamic design would allow for very distinct control stiffening effects.

 

Remember the M2000 has FBW controls. FBW disconnects the control stick from the control surfaces.

So in the real aircraft, any feedback you would have would be purely artificial, and totally independent from the airframe's aerodynamic layout.

[zaelu]

The only thing that would matter in a FBW plane is to have the stick moving if Ailerons/Elevators are trimmed and only if the actual plane have this feature. Like Su-27 for example.

Other than that the stick should stay centered but is not biggie for me as I added some small rubber bands to keep it centered and act as dampeners for the central un-motorized slack.

[Rain]

Remember the M2000 has FBW controls. FBW disconnects the control stick from the control surfaces.

So in the real aircraft, any feedback you would have would be purely artificial, and totally independent from the airframe's aerodynamic layout.

 

 

That is fine and I agree with that if it makes it realistic I am all up for it, but please put Force Feedback spring effect for the stick, so its not all loose and dead with not stiff force to it (aka force feedback motors not working so joystick will not center).

zaelus right aswell, the stick should move on trim commands like the Su 27 does.

 

Damnit, I really cant explain my excitement for M-2000C, I really hope you will manage to do this for the release :cry:

[Rain]

Afaik by default FFB sticks emulate conventional spring type sticks. You can usually(?) configure the strenght of that virtual spring with the software that comes with the device (if not already from within the windows control applet). At the very least this is true for the G940, but iirc, the MS FFB2 is behaving similar.

 

So, if they don't support FFB, then FFB sticks will act like spring sticks already. They would have to actively disable the forces to make the stick go limp.

 

I just wanted to point out that these statements are not true for Microsoft Sidewinder FF2, if any of the developers is reading this.

[jojo]

I don't know how much you can set the resistance, real one is around 9kg for full aft stick...:music_whistling:

 

The neutral point doesn't move with trim...FBW is almost like our desktop joystick :joystick:

 

zaelus right aswell, the stick should move on trim commands like the Su 27 does.

Indeed no. Anyway there is auto trim in pitch & rudder.

Edited November 24, 2015 by jojo

[Rain]

Yes, you might be right jojo since it is fly-by-wire system. Do you have any proof to back it up for M-2000C?

 

But, we should atleast get spring effect to the force feedback sticks, and some other minor force feedback subtle shake effects like when taxing on the ground or when we touch down on landings or when pulling very heavy Gs, I am sure the airframe shakes at some points and you can feel it in the cockpit aswell.

Edited November 24, 2015 by 5./JG11_Rain

[OnlyforDCS]

I don't know how much you can set the resistance, real one is around 9kg for full aft stick...:music_whistling:

 

The neutral point doesn't move with trim...FBW is almost like our desktop joystick :joystick:

 

 

Indeed no. Anyway there is auto trim in pitch & rudder.

 

You claim to know a whole lot about the Mirage 2000C FBW system. Are you a M2000C real life pilot or did you get to fly one maybe? AFAIK most FBW systems can be configured in different ways, based on G-load, air-trim law etc. In fact no two aircraft FBW systems are quite alike, this is why you see such a discrepancy between how the Su27 and F15 fly in DCS. As another example the F16C has a fixed joystick on the right hand side of the cockpit that barely moves. It registers force pressure applied to it by the pilot and sends this input through the digital FBW system.

Edited November 24, 2015 by OnlyforDCS

[sydost]

If there is no generic spring effect or proper force feedback effects programmed at the state of the beta release I think we should be able to use the force test program to do the spring effect ourselves.

 

The program can be found from this page http://www.fs-force.com/support.htm . Link at the bottom to forcetest.exe .

 

Very good that the force effects are coming eventually. :thumbup:

[theGozr]

FFB is the only way to fly.. You can get a 600$ stick but if it doesn't have FFB.. it's worthless to me.

[tingri]

Folks, I feel your disappointment but we have a lot of stuff to cover and so little time to meet our schedule. We will provide the support but not in the near time.

 

Also, on a personal note. I've never used a FF system so I cannot test the aircraft with it and will have to purchase one to test. I don't like to deliver untested systems. So be patient and you will have what you want.

 

I just preordered your aircraft with with the hope that you will keep your promise. FFB is fundamental for any simulator and many of us still use the Microsoft SideWinder FFB2 (one of the best controllers ever made). I also want to ask when coding the FFB to include at least some simple touchdown and runway rumble effects, thank you.

[Ganesh]

FFB :joystick: IS A MUST!!!

I´ll build one ^^ until we get a nice piece of hardware to buy

...So be patient and you will have what you want.

Sounds GOOOOOOD :clap_2:

[Rain]

Any news about Force Feedback for M-2000C?

[Rain]

Oh, nice! Thanks for the good news! Now waiting for steam release and I will be a happy man!