DCS: AJS-37 Viggen Discussion

[Nerd1000]

Here comes another radar question, has anyone seen how the radar display looks like and in A-G mode does it look like the F18 where things that are "higher" than the ground gets lighter or darker colour than the background?

I don't think the A2G radar produces a height map. My suspicion is that the brightness of a given point on the display instead tells you how strong the radar reflection from that point is. Water for example produces a weaker reflection than land, so it would be darker. This would for example allow you to navigate along a river at night.

[Sim Flyer]

Okay and i am guessing that tanks give a stronger radar reflection than the ground does but will it be able to differ between smaller objects like tanks and vehicles or maybe only bigger objects like houses?

 

Edit: Just realised (is that how you spell it?) that it is probably the same way that the F18's radar works :S

Edited February 10, 2016 by Sim Flyer

[Ragequits]

Regarding the countermeasure pods...I think it would be strange if they didn't hold a serious amount of flares and chaff if you consider the weight. The pod seems to weight at least 255kg. The Mig-21 bis' ASO can carry up to 64 countermeasures and only weights 22 kg.

So either they use very heavy chaff/flares or the pod can hold a lot of them.....or the pod is made out of lead:music_whistling:

[Nerd1000]

Okay and i am guessing that tanks give a stronger radar reflection than the ground does but will it be able to differ between smaller objects like tanks and vehicles or maybe only bigger objects like houses?

 

Edit: Just realised (is that how you spell it?) that it is probably the same way that the F18's radar works :S

Tanks wouldn't have enough contrast to pick out against the earth. In any case, these radars are for navigation or attacking large targets like ships, so they produce a more 'zoomed out' picture. If you go to this youtube link you should see an example (I couldn't get the video to work properly embedded). I should note that AFAIK the viggen doesn't have a terrain following radar like the F-111, so none of that 'E-scope' stuff is relevant.

Edited February 10, 2016 by Nerd1000

[BravoYankee4]

Speaking of weight.

The chaffs where originally made of silvered nylon strings and later on it was aluminized fiberglass strings.

During the initial tests there was some complaints from nearby farmers about having “aluminum waste” at their land and posing a threat to their animals. There was an agreement that any animal deaths caused by this would be compensated for. None where claimed.

 

Later on there was some official studies by the government veterinary service conducted, feeding cows and goats with the fiberglass strings. The result was that there was no harm caused to the animals by this nutritious supplement ;)

[BravoYankee4]

Here’s an example from the manual about the radar obstacle indication. In the picture example it is referred to as antenna towers (or similar).

[El Hadji]

Does anyone know how many flares / chaff there is in one of the Countermeasure pods that is used by the viggen.

 

ive been going through the manual and ive only found referance to how many seconds/minutes it would take in the different release modes before it would run out but no count on how much the pod contains.

 

Correct me if I am wrong but I think the Viggen had separate dispensers for chaffs and flares: The BOL 451 (chaffs) and BOY 401 (flares). I know that the info below was applicable to the JA at least:

 

The BOY 401 had 6 cassettes per dispenser. Each cassette could be loaded with two cartridges and each cartridge contained two flares. Two dispensers could be carried on pylons H7H and H7V. This means a maximum of 48 flares per aircraft.

 

The BOL 451 contained 160 strips packed in 12 smaller units and could be placed on either pylon R7V or R7H. Theoretically you could have used two dispensers but to my knowledge only one was used at a time in order to not waste pylon space.

 

EDIT: Just stumbled on this in the soldf.com forum which seems to correlate with what I just wrote:

 

Ok. Ska dela med mig lite av min kunskap från att ha jobbat i vapenverkstan några år på F16 och deltagit i en del vapenhantering.

 

BOL 451 tar bara remsor, ingen fackel model finns. 160 remsramar per fällare. Vi har endast en storlek av remsor till dessa fällare och de är förpackade i 12 små packet i varje ram. Ramen bryts när den trycks ut ur fällarens bakkant och remsorna frigörs. 2 luftkanaler vid sidan av öppningen skapar virvlar som gör att remsorna sprids bättre i större måln. Kan ej monteras på vingspetsarn på Gripen eftersom de sitter i lavetten och på vingspetsen är lavetten inbyggd i planet. Anledningen till att det finns mycket info om denna är att vi haft den länge. Som sagt tidigare köptes den in the jakt Viggen (D-Mod) då den inte hade någon form av remsfällare under en längre tid. Planerat att hänga endast en fällare/plan då 160 pack remsor är väldigt mycket och mer bara skulle vara slöseri med resurser. De kan hängas i balkläge R7V, R7H.

 

Nackdelen med BOL inbyggd i lavetten är att de kylluftsflaskor som vi använder i Sverige till RB74 (och tidigare modeller) satt just på den plats där denna fällare nu sitter. Fördelen med vår flaska är att den räcker för flera pass (upp till 4 om jag minns rätt med flitig användning av målsökaren), till skillnad mot "apelsinen" som man kan montera in direkt i roboten som räcker ungefär ett pass.

 

BOY 401 heter den fackelfällare/fackelbalk som användes på Viggen och som inte är monterad när den inte används. Den laddades med 6 kassetter per fällare. Varje kassett laddas med 2 patroner, varje patron innehåller 2 facklor. Två fällare/balkar kan monteras per plan, H7H och H7V. Alltså max 48 facklor per flygplan, vilket är mycket för den generationen av jaktplan. Vi har endast 1 storlek på facklor av denna typ, dock finns det större facklor med endast 1 per patron och mindre versioner att inskaffa till systemet. Diametern på patronen har jag inte koll på men längden på rören är 375mm.

 

I den bakre kassetten i varje fällare till BOY systemet har SAAB även utvecklat så det går att montera släpmålsmotmedel, eller bogesrade aktiva skenmål. Då 2 i varje kassett som vardera har en batteri tid på runt 15 min efter aktivering. Dock köpte inte försvaret denna funktion och därför finns inte den utbyggnaden implementerad i Viggen heller. För de som inte vet vad detta är så är det små radiosändare som hänger 20-30m bakom flygplanet och sänder ut signaler för att ge en starkare radarskugga än vad flygplanet ger. Alltså agerar decoy mot radarstyrda robotar.

 

De fackelpatroner som används i BOY systemet är samma patroner som används till Gripen i dess inbyggda BOP/B fällare i bakkanten på "robotbalken" (vilken de inte kallar den för på Gripen). Som synns på bilden går det att ladda 6 patroner/sida vilket ger 12 facklor per fällare. Alltså 24 facklor per flygplan. Vad gäller BOP/C på ryggen vid fenroten så har jag inget direkt koll på, vet att det fanns någon info om den i häftet vi fick ut... Som ligger i förrådet någonstanns. Har inte läst mer än lite lätt om motmedel på Gripen. Är ju utbildad på metal maskiner, inte plats. :P

 

Vad det gäller hänging av saker på samma balk så visst är det praktiskt möjligt att hänga BOL lavetten under balken med BOP/B. Det är också på den balken som BOL bör hängas eftersom den skall hängas så långt från kroppen som möjligt för att ge maximal spridning genom hjälp av virvlarna från vingspetsarna. ;) Om det sedan är tekniskt implementerat så på Gripen vet jag inte, men det är det på D-modden av Viggen av tidigare given anledning, så det borde vara samma på Gripen. Och då borde det gå att hänga 4 per flygplan... dock extremt onödigt och du skulle bara få RB74 i de balkarna...

Edited February 10, 2016 by El Hadji

[WinterH]

I think JA, unlike AJ, has built in countermeasure dispensers, rather than pods on pylons. At least JA-37D had. May be the ones you mention are those?

[El Hadji]

The Swedish text written by a former weapons technician at F16 that I quoted is talking about pods mounted on pylons. But as I said... Not sure if this is applicable to the AJS.

[mattebubben]

Here comes another radar question, has anyone seen how the radar display looks like and in A-G mode does it look like the F18 where things that are "higher" than the ground gets lighter or darker colour than the background?

 

 

 

Here is a video with some Cockpit Footage.

 

Its a SH-37 Sea Recce variant so it has the Same radar as the AJS-37.

 

So there you can see some of the radar in action.

Edited February 10, 2016 by mattebubben

[mattebubben]

The Swedish text written by a former weapons technician at F16 that I quoted is talking about pods mounted on pylons. But as I said... Not sure if this is applicable to the AJS.

 

The AJ/AJS-37 had the KB Pod witch had a both Chaff / Flares

(it was the base for the Boz 100 series)

 

The Bol and Boy Dispensers where only used on the JA-37D.

 

The Bol 451 was the chaff dispenser and it was mounted on the side of the weapons pylon/launch rail

 

(The Bol 451 is also known as LAU-138 outside of sweden and is used by many other nations including the US)

 

It was never used on the AJ/AJS-37.

 

The BOY 401 was the flare dispenser and it was mounted on two previously unused hardpoints behind the main landing gear wells.

 

But the AJS-37 carried neither of those (and they only started seeing service on the JA-37 in the 90s)

 

The AJS-37 only had the large Mixed Countermeasure pod that could be carried on the inner wing pylons.

 

And also the writer on the forum was never on the AJS-37 wich is why he did not mention the AJS-37s pods as he did not encounter them.

Edited February 10, 2016 by mattebubben

[El Hadji]

Thanx for clarifying!

[BravoYankee4]

And F 16 was a fighter wing that only had JA's as far as I can see - which also cements that theory of it being used on the fighter version.

[mattebubben]

Regarding the countermeasure pods...I think it would be strange if they didn't hold a serious amount of flares and chaff if you consider the weight. The pod seems to weight at least 255kg. The Mig-21 bis' ASO can carry up to 64 countermeasures and only weights 22 kg.

So either they use very heavy chaff/flares or the pod can hold a lot of them.....or the pod is made out of lead:music_whistling:

 

The ASO pod does not carry 64 counter measures.

 

It carries 32 in two pods.

 

So two pods of 32 not one pod of 64.

 

And also we are not sure about the numbers for the BK pod (Boz-100)

 

but if it is number we have found so far.

 

With 540 chaff packets and 28 cartridges (each of whom should have 2 flares)

 

While the ASO has a mix of 64 in total.

 

So even with only carrying chaff thats not even a fraction of what one of the viggen pods could carry.

 

and a AJS-37 could carry 2 pods thus carrying twice as much.

 

And also when it comes to the ASO you release two flares each time you release flares.

 

So 64 flares only comes down to 32 flare Discharges.

 

If its correct that the BK pod carries 28 cartridges and each cartridge has 2 flares (as my sources tell me =P)

 

That would give the pod 56 flares in 28 discharges wich is almost the same as a ASO carrying only flares.

 

And also the BK pod always carries both Flares / Chaff you dont mix or sacrifice one or the other.

 

The flares are stored in the rear most part of the pod while the rest is used to store the Chaff packets.

 

The JA-37 fighter variant of the viggen had small flare dispensers comparable to the aso

called BOY 401 (also mounted towards the rear)

 

They where in the same size class and 24 flares per pod and 2 pods where carried (together with chaff dispensers on the sides of the missiles pylons)

Edited February 10, 2016 by mattebubben

[Ragequits]

The ASO pod does not carry 64 counter measures.

 

It carries 32 in two pods.

 

So two pods of 32 not one pod of 64.

 

And also we are not sure about the numbers for the BK pod (Boz-100)

 

but if it is number we have found so far.

 

With 540 chaff packets and 28 cartridges (each of whom should have 2 flares)

 

While the ASO has a mix of 64 in total.

 

So even with only carrying chaff thats not even a fraction of what one of the viggen pods could carry.

 

and a AJS-37 could carry 2 pods thus carrying twice as much.

 

And also when it comes to the ASO you release two flares each time you release flares.

 

So 64 flares only comes down to 32 flare Discharges.

 

If its correct that the BK pod carries 28 cartridges and each cartridge has 2 flares (as my sources tell me =P)

 

That would give the pod 56 flares in 28 discharges wich is almost the same as a ASO carrying only flares.

 

And also the BK pod always carries both Flares / Chaff you dont mix or sacrifice one or the other.

 

The flares are stored in the rear most part of the pod while the rest is used to store the Chaff packets.

 

The JA-37 fighter variant of the viggen had small flare dispensers comparable to the aso

called BOY 401 (also mounted towards the rear)

 

They where in the same size class and 24 flares per pod and 2 pods where carried (together with chaff dispensers on the sides of the missiles pylons)

 

Yeah you got me :P It is right, the 64 countermeasures are split on two pods but the combined total weight of the 2 ASO pods is still 22kg....at least in the sim

And yes the viggen can carry without a doubt more countermeasures than the Mig-21, the only point I wanted to make was that this number of 540 chaff plus 56 flares could be possible if you consider the pod's weight :)

But I have one question: The way you formulated it it sounds like the BK pod always carries 540 chaff and 56 flares or what ever the exact number is now. Do you know if this is the case or if it is a modular system like the ASO pod or the A-10c's countermeasure dispensers, meaning you can change the flare to chaff ratio?

I think this would be interesting to know because if you are certain that the AO does not have alot of radar threats you could ramp up the number of flares. Although this might not often be the case if you consider the viggen's role :)

[BravoYankee4]

The flares are stored in the rear most part of the pod while the rest is used to store the Chaff packets.

 

That rear section of the KB pod was initially intended for additional electronics, however that never happend. So that unused space was then redesigned to house the flares. So that is how it became a combined chaff and flare pod :)

[mattebubben]

Yeah you got me :P It is right, the 64 countermeasures are split on two pods but the combined total weight of the 2 ASO pods is still 22kg....at least in the sim

And yes the viggen can carry without a doubt more countermeasures than the Mig-21, the only point I wanted to make was that this number of 540 chaff plus 56 flares could be possible if you consider the pod's weight :)

But I have one question: The way you formulated it it sounds like the BK pod always carries 540 chaff and 56 flares or what ever the exact number is now. Do you know if this is the case or if it is a modular system like the ASO pod or the A-10c's countermeasure dispensers, meaning you can change the flare to chaff ratio?

I think this would be interesting to know because if you are certain that the AO does not have alot of radar threats you could ramp up the number of flares. Although this might not often be the case if you consider the viggen's role :)

 

And also i dont know if the ASO in reality is as modular as it is ingame.

 

My guess would be that in reality the number off chaff/flares is fixed.

 

(or atleast not easily changed)

[Farks]

I made a map over E1's bases in western Sweden, as an example of Swedens base system during the cold war (Bas 60/90). This is where the AJ 37 (and later AJS) would mainly be operating from, but there were other bases as well. F15 wing up in Söderhamn housed another two (?) AJ 37 divisions, and other bases in both southern and northern Sweden could accommodate the AJ 37 as well. But these bases were the main home for the aircraft. Both F6 and F7 housed two divisions each if I remember correctly.

 

Link

 

Blue markers = air wings and their main base

Green markers = air strip

Red markers = road strip

 

If you look along the side of the strips and roads in the area you can see the "pockets" where aircraft would be parked for preparation and maintenance. Some are located 1-2 km from the actual air strip, and can be a bit tricky to spot.

 

It would be interesting to try and find and map out all of the old Bas 60/90 bases and strips someday.

[mattebubben]

I made a map over E1's bases in western Sweden, as an example of Swedens base system during the cold war (Bas 60/90). This is where the AJ 37 (and later AJS) would mainly be operating from, but there were other bases as well. F15 wing up in Söderhamn housed another two (?) AJ 37 divisions, and other bases in both southern and northern Sweden could accommodate the AJ 37 as well. But these bases were the main home for the aircraft. Both F6 and F7 housed two divisions each if I remember correctly.

 

Link

 

Blue markers = air wings and their main base

Green markers = air strip

Red markers = road strip

 

If you look along the side of the strips and roads in the area you can see the "pockets" where aircraft would be parked for preparation and maintenance. Some are located 1-2 km from the actual air strip, and can be a bit tricky to spot.

 

It would be interesting to try and find and map out all of the old Bas 60/90 bases and strips someday.

 

Before the 90s F15 operated 1 AJ 37 Division and one Mixed AJ/SK37 divison (as F15 was the unit designated to train new AJ-37 pilots)

 

But in 93 the F6 wing was dismantled (part of the post cold war millitary reductions) and some of its aircraft where moved to F15 to let them form 2 AJ/AJS divisions.

 

And also to be noted. (not to farks but to others unfamiliar with the swedish system)

 

The Strips in that map are only those close to the airbases.

 

Since there are most likley bases (smaller airfields or road bases) designated in case of deployment to the Eastern coast to face a possible russian attack.

Edited February 10, 2016 by mattebubben

[Farks]

Before the 90s F15 operated 1 AJ 37 Division and one Mixed AJ/SK37 divison (as F15 was the unit designated to train new AJ-37 pilots)

 

But in 93 the F6 wing was dismantled (part of the post cold war millitary reductions) and some of its aircraft where moved to F15 to let them form 2 AJ/AJS divisions.

 

And also to be noted.

 

The Strips in that map are only those close to the airbases.

 

Since there are most likley bases (smaller airfields or road bases) designated in case of deployment to the Eastern coast to face a possible russian attack.

Thanks for the info.

 

And, yes, like I said these were the "home" bases for the AJ 37 throughout most of the cold war, where they would deploy initially in case of war. There were other bases for the AJ 37 on top of these, but I haven't figured out which ones yet. I guess someone here might know?

[mattebubben]

Thanks for the info.

 

And, yes, like I said these were the "home" bases for the AJ 37 throughout most of the cold war, where they would deploy initially in case of war. There were other bases for the AJ 37 on top of these, but I haven't figured out which ones yet. I guess someone here might know?

 

There is bound to have been some Alternate base to get closer to the east coast.

 

Since while they could fly from their home bases to the east coast it would reduce the loiter and overall range.

 

So im guessing they had bases closer to the east.

 

I live in northern sweden so im not as familiar with the southern bases.

But i know for a fact that F4 (Ja 37 Wing based at Östersund in northern/central sweden)

 

had large forward bases close to the coast (one of them being Kubbe North west of Örnsköldsvik)

 

Most Of the Fighter wings had alternate bases for redeployment depending on where the attack came from / where they where needed.

 

Another example would be F21 wich is the northernmost fighterwing and is close to the Border with finland.

 

The two speculated points of attack from russia was either over the ocean or through finland into northen sweden.

 

And if that was the case the F21 base (wich had a Mix of SH/SF 37 Recce Viggens and JA 37 Fighter viggens)

 

(2 Fighter Divisions and 1 recce division)

 

So it was very much planned to have to retreat south if the russians came from the north since it was very close to the border and it was deemed it would quickly be threatend / overrun.

Edited February 11, 2016 by mattebubben

[BravoYankee4]

I made a map over E1's bases in western Sweden, as an example of Swedens base system during the cold war (Bas 60/90). This is where the AJ 37 (and later AJS) would mainly be operating from, but there were other bases as well. F15 wing up in Söderhamn housed another two (?) AJ 37 divisions, and other bases in both southern and northern Sweden could accommodate the AJ 37 as well. But these bases were the main home for the aircraft. Both F6 and F7 housed two divisions each if I remember correctly.

 

Link

 

Blue markers = air wings and their main base

Green markers = air strip

Red markers = road strip

 

If you look along the side of the strips and roads in the area you can see the "pockets" where aircraft would be parked for preparation and maintenance. Some are located 1-2 km from the actual air strip, and can be a bit tricky to spot.

 

It would be interesting to try and find and map out all of the old Bas 60/90 bases and strips someday.

 

There was a lot of parking and maintenance areas along the road 184 (Lidköping - Skara) mainly in the Hasslösa - Vinninga surroundings. All are gone now, but if you know what to look for you can see some of them.

Don't remember if that road was ever used for takeoff or landing?

[renhanxue]

Hasslösa was one of the E1 bases, yes. This thread has a wealth of discussion of which base was the "home" of each squadron - the last post is of particular interest; I'll quote the most relevant part:

 

Trolig utgångsgruppering i Grundalternativet mobilisering c:a år 1970.

 

E 1

 

61. Adiv Karlsborg

62. Adiv Moholm (Bällefors)

63. Adiv Hasslösa divisionen utgår fredsmässigt 1967.

71. Adiv Såtenäs

72. Adiv Råda

73. Adiv Hovby (Lidköpings flygplats)

151. Adiv Kjula (Eskilstuna)

152. Adiv Arboga eller Hässlö

153. Adiv Arboga eller Hässlö divisionen utgår fredsmässigt 1967

171. Adiv Uråsa tidigare Kosta, (troligtvis bytt 1967 från Kosta med 122 jaktdiv F 12)

172. Adiv Byholma

173. Adiv Hagshult

 

1. Sdiv. F 11 (S 32) Ljungbyhed

2. Sdiv. F 11 (S 35) Tågrabasen (vägbas ost om Sjöbobasen i Sjöbo )

3. Sdiv. F 11 (S 35) Tannefors Linköping (SAAB fältet)

4. Sdiv. F 21 (S 35) Vidsel

5. Sdiv. F 11 (S 32) Malmslätt

6. Sdiv. F 11 (S 32) Färila

7. Sdiv. F 11 (S 35) Eneryda vägbas (Småland)

8. Sdiv. F 11 (S 35) Söderhamn

9. Sdiv. F 21 (S 35) Åmsele

10. Sdiv. F 11 (S 32) Kalmar

Two relevant documents:

[ame]http://www.flyghistoria.org/flygbas/Fortv_Rapport_2007.1.pdf[/ame]

 

[ame]http://www.flyghistoria.org/flygbas/Fortv_Rapport_2006.1.pdf[/ame]

Edited February 11, 2016 by renhanxue

[Skjold]

Fortifikationsverket, Didn't even know they existed nowadays? Cool documents.

 

Guess they don't have much fortfications to administer anymore :)

Edited February 11, 2016 by Skjold

[Farks]

I went ahead and made a map of all the bases in Sweden ca 1985-1995.

 

Link

 

As before:

Blue = air wings and their main base

Green = air strips (light green is for short strips near the main runway)

Red = road strip

 

The letter for the air wings stand for:

F = fighter

S = strike/attack

R = reconnaissance

 

F6 and F13 closed in 1994, but I decided to keep them anyway for awsomeness. I haven't sorted the bases by what air wings or air groups they belonged to, perhaps next time. Feedback on what should be added or removed is of course welcome. :)