DCS: AJS-37 Viggen Discussion

[microvax]

The stall in this thread is real it seems like everything has been said we are prepared as good as possible and now we are sitting here waiting for the release. :D

[BravoYankee4]

The stall in this thread is real it seems like everything has been said:D

 

I wouldn't bet on that ;)

 

It will for sure be derailed at least as many times as there are weeks until release of the module.

And there are plenty of more facts to share.

 

There is a Viggen Facebook group (mostly in Swedish) with some real life pilots discussing and sharing a lot of good information. Tonight there has been a discussion about firing RB 05 missiles. Perhaps we can sum up that eventually and share here.

[microvax]

I wouldn't bet on that ;)

 

It will for sure be derailed at least as many times as there are weeks until release of the module.

And there are plenty of more facts to share.

 

There is a Viggen Facebook group (mostly in Swedish) with some real life pilots discussing and sharing a lot of good information. Tonight there has been a discussion about firing RB 05 missiles. Perhaps we can sum up that eventually and share here.

 

ouhh yis. Anything about rb05 and BK90/DWS39 will be received by me like a sponge. :D

[Buren]

What would be a comparable aircraft to the attack-variant Viggen in role/capabalities? (not in aerodynamics/avionics)

 

I'm thinking about the Su-17 family from the soviet side and probably A-7 from US side? It would be good to know for the inescapable stand-in/squint harder scenarios.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

Still trying to find Viggen.

 

I've found the Yeti, Nessie, the Yowie, the Mothman, the Wolfman, and Atlantis.

 

I still can't find Viggen. Where Viggen? Should I try looking in Poland?

[microvax]

Still trying to find Viggen.

 

I've found the Yeti, Nessie, the Yowie, the Mothman, the Wolfman, and Atlantis.

 

I still can't find Viggen. Where Viggen? Should I try looking in Poland?

 

Its supposed to be somewhere on a mass storage device in sweden. :detective_2:

 

Looking forward to the playstyle of the Viggen. ATM I am flying in blue flag with a mirage with rocket pods and bombs. And its great. Looking forwrad to do that in the Viggen ! :D

[Knock-Knock]

Still trying to find Viggen.

 

I've found the Yeti, Nessie, the Yowie, the Mothman, the Wolfman, and Atlantis.

 

I still can't find Viggen. Where Viggen? Should I try looking in Poland?

 

When you see Elvis, then you are getting really close. Apparently he likes to catch salmon on the pitot tube, with the Viggen.

[Uncle SAM]

A little laugh while we wait!

 

[Farks]

What would be a comparable aircraft to the attack-variant Viggen in role/capabalities? (not in aerodynamics/avionics)

 

I'm thinking about the Su-17 family from the soviet side and probably A-7 from US side? It would be good to know for the inescapable stand-in/squint harder scenarios.

 

The west-german Marinefliegers Starfighter and later Tornado would problary be the closest in terms of role/capabalities. Through the entire duration of the cold war, all six AJ 37 squadrons were organized into a single unit called "Första Flygeskadern" (1st Air Group), or E1 for short. E1 was seperate from the regular air force and was directly commanded by the swedish commander-in-chief. While E1 was capable of a variety of strike missions, the main focus was anti-ship operations on the Baltic Sea (just like the Marineflieger), since a naval invasion from the giant bear in the east was highly likely in case WW3 broke out. And the plan was to fly so frequently and aggresively that E1 was expected to be depleted as a fighting unit within the opening stages of the war.

Edited August 6, 2016 by Farks

[renhanxue]

What would be a comparable aircraft to the attack-variant Viggen in role/capabalities? (not in aerodynamics/avionics)

 

I'm thinking about the Su-17 family from the soviet side and probably A-7 from US side? It would be good to know for the inescapable stand-in/squint harder scenarios.

In the original AJ 37 configuration, the most similar aircraft in role and weaponry is probably the Super Étendard, or as mentioned the West German Marineflieger F-104's. In the AJS 37 version, perhaps the A-4 Skyhawk in its later variants comes close-ish?

 

If the Soviet navy were even half as bad at dealing with ASM's as the Brits were at the Falklands in 1982, then an invasion would have fared rather poorly indeed.

Edited August 6, 2016 by renhanxue

[boopidoo]

Regarding the first air group.

 

[renhanxue]

Surely everyone who can read Swedish and has any interest in the Viggen has read the excellent doctrine analysis paper Med invasionen i sikte, but for the benefit of the linguistically impaired, a few tidbits from it may be of interest.

 

Farks summed the most important points of E1 up, but I'll start off with some background information to help you understand the context it was supposed to work in. The structure of the Swedish military and defense planning, as it developed in the 1950's, was highly decentralized - a feature that would remain intact until the end of the Cold War. The planners greatly feared a 1940 scenario where the mobilization either never got started or the central command was decapitated early on, and this was only increased by the possibility of nuclear strikes on important command centers. For this reason, the mobilization was designed to be impossible to stop once it had started (hence all the propaganda that said "every message that claims that the mobilization has been cancelled is false", and its later variant on the same tune that said "every message that claims that the resistance has ended is false"). All equipment storage was highly decentralized in order to prevent sabotage or surgical strikes on important locations.

 

With mobilization covered, the next step was to make lower levels of the chain of command so autonomous that they could handle themselves even if the top staffs got nuked, sabotaged or were otherwise unreachable. The country was divided into seven military districts (militärområden, milo), which were then subdivided into smaller pieces (försvarsområden, fo) that mostly corresponded to the counties of the civilian administration. A commander of a military district effectively had the command of all forces in his district, including fighter squadrons, which he could use at his own discretion. The Swedish army of the later cold war didn't have army divisions; the brigades were directly under military district commanders instead.

 

The exception to this structure was E1. E1 was not part of the regular chain of command - instead all six squadrons were under their own staff that answered only to the commander-in-chief and the joint headquarters. In other words, it was a strategic resource, not a tactical one. Under special circumstances a military district commander could be assigned a number of sorties from E1 per day to do something, but before the expected naval invasion, E1 could not be jeopardized on lesser tasks. In a decisive situation that could determine the course of the war like a naval invasion, however, E1 was to be used completely without regard for losses. Quoting directly from a formerly top secret 1963 doctrine document as cited in the paper mentioned:

 

We must therefore deploy E1 remorselessly, we must hit hard and we must hit quickly so we have time to repeat our strikes. We must employ the greatest possible force from the very beginning. Not save aircraft and missiles for later. By then it could be too late.

 

[...]

 

The squadrons must be prepared for great losses in these situations. This will require good esprit de corps and high morale. It is essential that our flight crews have faith in the commanders and leaders that are sending them out to die.

(The underlining is from the original text.) Edited August 6, 2016 by renhanxue

[Sporg]

Wow..

[scaflight]

... Way to build my confidence before buying the module.

 

How long could LN's Viggen campaign possibly be?

[Skjold]

Question for the devs, will the Viggen come with a countermeasure pod that doesn't take up one of its four main weapon pylons? I understand the BOY401 was at least used on the JA 37 but i'm not sure if it was ever used on the AJS.

[mattebubben]

Question for the devs, will the Viggen come with a countermeasure pod that doesn't take up one of its four main weapon pylons? I understand the BOY401 was at least used on the JA 37 but i'm not sure if it was ever used on the AJS.

 

It was not.

 

The only Pod the AJS 37 can carry will take up one of the wing Pylons.

 

The JA37 got some different countermassure devices in the Late 80s and 90s but the AJS 37 never got any of those (to my knowledge atleast).

 

I guess they could add them in the game as a potential modification but i would be against that.

Edited August 7, 2016 by mattebubben

[Skjold]

It was not.

 

The only Pod the AJS 37 can carry will take up one of the wing Pylons.

 

Alright, thanks for the reply bubben.

[mattebubben]

It was probably something that could had been done (Since the AJS 37 already had the same unused stations that the Boy 401 was attached to on the JA 37)

 

But it was probably considered that it was not needed and that such a modification would have been an Unnecessary expense.

 

And they would still have had to keep the Pod that the AJS 37 already used since it had other uses that a smaller chaff dispenser could not fulfill.

And giving up 1 pylon was not considered any significant problem.

 

Especially since it was usually only 1 aircraft in each flight that would carry the Chaff/flare pod.

[Farks]

Surely everyone who can read Swedish and has any interest in the Viggen has read the excellent doctrine analysis paper Med invasionen i sikte, but for the benefit of the linguistically impaired, a few tidbits from it may be of interest.

 

Farks summed the most important points of E1 up, but I'll start off with some background information to help you understand the context it was supposed to work in. The structure of the Swedish military and defense planning, as it developed in the 1950's, was highly decentralized - a feature that would remain intact until the end of the Cold War. The planners greatly feared a 1940 scenario where the mobilization either never got started or the central command was decapitated early on, and this was only increased by the possibility of nuclear strikes on important command centers. For this reason, the mobilization was designed to be impossible to stop once it had started (hence all the propaganda that said "every message that claims that the mobilization has been cancelled is false", and its later variant on the same tune that said "every message that claims that the resistance has ended is false"). All equipment storage was highly decentralized in order to prevent sabotage or surgical strikes on important locations.

 

With mobilization covered, the next step was to make lower levels of the chain of command so autonomous that they could handle themselves even if the top staffs got nuked, sabotaged or were otherwise unreachable. The country was divided into seven military districts (militärområden, milo), which were then subdivided into smaller pieces (försvarsområden, fo) that mostly corresponded to the counties of the civilian administration. A commander of a military district effectively had the command of all forces in his district, including fighter squadrons, which he could use at his own discretion. The Swedish army of the later cold war didn't have army divisions; the brigades were directly under military district commanders instead.

 

The exception to this structure was E1. E1 was not part of the regular chain of command - instead all six squadrons were under their own staff that answered only to the commander-in-chief and the joint headquarters. In other words, it was a strategic resource, not a tactical one. Under special circumstances a military district commander could be assigned a number of sorties from E1 per day to do something, but before the expected naval invasion, E1 could not be jeopardized on lesser tasks. In a decisive situation that could determine the course of the war like a naval invasion, however, E1 was to be used completely without regard for losses. Quoting directly from a formerly top secret 1963 doctrine document as cited in the paper mentioned:

 

(The underlining is from the original text.)

 

If I remember correctly, that document suggests that the secondary mission for E1 would be interdiction missions in northern Sweden, Finland and even Russia. But that would problary only happen if the naval threat was no longer considered realistic, if for example the WP had depleted their Baltic naval forces on attacking West-Germany and Denmark.

[renhanxue]

Yep. And those missions would not be flown much more carefully, to minimize losses. There was no sense in throwing aircraft and pilots away if the decisive moment wasn't there. But still, E1 in the 1960's and 70's was very much a strategic resource - it simply didn't do tactical strike missions like CAS. The army had no forward air controllers and E1 didn't train for that kind of missions. It was all about attacking important strategic targets like infrastructure (bridges, ports, airfields), command posts, logistics centers etc, and maybe bridgeheads if the opportunity was there and there was little to no AA .

 

By the time the AJS 37 rolled around in the 90's this extreme focus on anti-shipping work had been reduced a bit and it was at least conceivable to attack other targets, but things like the GBU-39 SDB and other precision ground attack weapons were not acquired until after 2000, the dismantling of the old invasion defense and the retirement of the Viggen system.

Edited August 7, 2016 by renhanxue

[Farks]

Speaking of E1: would it be far-fetched to assume that one of the reasons E1 was kept intact while the other three air groups were disbanded in 1966 had to do with nuclear weapons? They were still on the table when that happend, as far as I can tell.

[renhanxue]

I think that does sound a bit far-fetched. First, nuclear weapons were already well on the way to dying in 1966, especially as far as the air force was concerned, but you don't even need to use that for an explanation. E1 was a strategic resource before the reform and remained so afterwards - nothing changed in that regard. The purpose was always force concentration against a strategic target (like the invasion fleet). The rest of the air force simply didn't have that need for force concentration and it made more sense to decentralize.

 

Quoting the paper:

CFV och flygledningen blev visserligen en del av ÖB:s högkvarter i krig från 1961, men de fyra eskadrarna bibehölls intakta. Som visats i avsnitt 2.3 förordade flygvapnet endast tre nya militärområden i samband med den regionala ledningsreformen för att inte ytterligare splittra flygstridskrafterna. Det blev en kompromiss, innebärande sex nya militärområden men där i praktiken endast tre utövade luftoperativ ledning. Då dessa tre även ledde den luftoperativa verksamheten i var sitt annat militärområde blev den slutliga lösningen snarlik de gamla eskaderområdena E 2, E 3 och E 4. Flygvapnet behöll även E 1 med allt attackflyg direkt underställt ÖB i syfte att kunna kraftsamla i hela operationsområdet i tid och rum. De andra eskadrarnas motsvarande möjligheter hade för övrigt övergetts redan 1957 i och med att de tidigare flygbasområdena då uppgick i eskadrarna som därmed förvandlades till territoriella enheter, om än med möjligheter att förstärka varandra. En strävan efter, åtminstone relativt andra försvarsgrenar, centraliserad ledning framgår tydligt.

[Farks]

Yeah, I guess that makes sense.

 

On to something different then: any good estimates of what would a soviet invasion fleet heading towards Sweden would consist of in the late '80s or early '90s (considering it's the relevant time period for this module)? We've got this picture, but it's about the late '60s and I don't know how reliable the information in it is.

[BravoYankee4]

Yeah, I guess that makes sense.

 

On to something different then: any good estimates of what would a soviet invasion fleet heading towards Sweden would consist of in the late '80s or early '90s (considering it's the relevant time period for this module)? We've got this picture, but it's about the late '60s and I don't know how reliable the information in it is.

 

I'll try to dig out old slides from my fathers archives that might give us some details regarding this. I kept some presentations he had, but I haven't got the time to go through it all yet.

He served at K3, then Milostab V and later UNDS, so there are some gold to be found among all the papers, slides and films :)

[scaflight]

I'll try to dig out old slides from my fathers archives that might give us some details regarding this. I kept some presentations he had, but I haven't got the time to go through it all yet.

He served at K3, then Milostab V and later UNDS, so there are some gold to be found among all the papers, slides and films :)

 

I'd be very interested in more information! One of the elements mentioned in Med Invasionen i Sikte (p. 16) is the movement of Russian forces by way of helicopter, where est. 100 Mi-4 would fly at least twice a day. I can imagine that this force, partially shielded by Migs, could present us with a very nice mission for a invasion-type campaign.