Targeting woes

[hhatch]

I have been spending a lot of time with the a 10c over the past couple of weeks and one of the big problems I am having is finding targets without using labels.

 

I have read quite a few posts and looked at various tutorials discussing strategies employed to find targets.

 

I finally decided to learn how to input coordinates to the CDU thinking that was probably my best shot at narrowing the places to look with the TGP.

 

So I was able to get latitude and longitude input to the CDU and created a quick mission with objects on a waypoint. I slaved the TGP to the waypoint coordinates and started looking. So far I have not been able to find a single target without using labels, even on a mission I created using what I thought was a good method.

 

I am aware this is a skill for which there is no substitute for practice and trial and error experiments.

 

However, I am making no progress after many hours. I really thought the CDU would be my best tool. I don't know what to do next. I'm out of ideas.

[Deezle]

The new default map textures in 1.5/Black Sea map make it very difficult. I've found it's much easier to spot things in the TGP in NTTR. You may try an alternate map texture pack such as Starway's Northern Europe texture pack.

[baltic_dragon]

Play with brightness and contrast settings of your MFCD and switch camera modes of your TGP. It is true that spotting targets in Black Sea map is more difficult, but it is certainly doable and comes with practice!

[Yurgon]

As was said before, there were quite a few changes over time.

 

When the DCS A-10C came out, targets stood out in a way that they were very easy to spot in the TGP, especially in WHOT/BHOT modes, and IIRC the general understanding was that this was much easier than in real life.

 

Later, the WHOT/BHOT contrast was strongly reduced, making things more challenging.

 

And then the ground textures were changed so that targets can become practically invisible unless they're on the move or on a road, or both.

 

I have no clue how close to real life it is in 1.5 today, but it really takes a lot of practice and a portion of good luck to spot targets. :thumbup:

 

That said, the more spot-on your intel is, the easier it should be. 6 digit MGRS coords are usually quite sufficient. They're entered almost the same way as L/L and are supplied by the in-game JTAC for example.

 

Also, as was said before, playing with the TGP's brightness and contrast can really help, as well as zooming in and out.

 

One more thing, if you have a particular mission where you find it very difficult to spot targets, tell us where to find it, or upload the mission itself or a track of your flight, then we can take a look and maybe offer some more specific advice. :thumbup:

Edited December 10, 2015 by Yurgon

[hhatch]

As was said before, there were quite a few changes over time.

 

When the DCS A-10C came out, targets stood out in a way that they were very easy to spot in the TGP, especially in WHOT/BHOT modes, and IIRC the general understanding was that this was much easier than in real life.

 

Later, the WHOT/BHOT contrast was strongly reduced, making things more challenging.

 

And then the ground textures were changed so that targets can become practically invisible unless they're on the move or on a road, or both.

 

I have no clue how close to real life it is in 1.5 today, but it really takes a lot of practice and a portion of good luck to spot targets. :thumbup:

 

That said, the more spot-on your intel is, the easier it should be. 6 digit MGRS coords are usually quite sufficient. They're entered almost the same way as L/L and are supplied by the in-game JTAC for example.

 

Also, as was said before, playing with the TGP's brightness and contrast can really help, as well as zooming in and out.

 

One more thing, if you have a particular mission where you find it very difficult to spot targets, tell us where to find it, or upload the mission itself or a track of your flight, then we can take a look and maybe offer some more specific advice. :thumbup:

 

At the moment I am using ver 1.2.16 which has a map of the caucasus. It certainly appears that intel and pre flight planning is important. Right now I am trying to spend time looking at the map and identify geographic and other features that will give me more info in addition to inputting coordinates. Just zooming the tgc around seems to be a waste.

 

The TGP is a powerful camera however the fov can become so narrow that it is easy to miss a target as well as becoming very time consuming.

 

I have been playing around with modes, brightness, contrast, gain, and levels, but it is still tough going.

 

One other thing. I am using a flight stick and keyboard. I think adding a HOTAS and head tracking won't make me see better but I think it would save time, add efficiency and make the whole process less fatiguing. I initially questioned the value, but after 250 hrs I think a HOTAS at least is almost a necessity if I decide to get serious.

 

This is the deepest most complex sim I have ever tried.

[Gth]

Something I've been doing to get an eye on targets is to actually fly parallel to my target area on autopilot about 15-18nm out and up, and then zoom in my view on the TGP MFD to look for targets. Makes it a lot easier to spot targets when you're right on the screen.

 

It also takes some of the headache out of trying to locate a target because then, if you set yourself up correctly, you don't have to worry about running into enemies (Unless they come after you :joystick:) and you can really get a good look at the area. It also helps because then you're keeping your TGP on point for the longest time possible.

 

Another thing I like to do is use my mark points to mark targets as I find them.

 

It should also be noted when it comes to JTAC, even when they send you a target through the TAD, is that it is seldom accurate, and more than likely is just the center of a target area rather than the specific coordinates of the target.

[Yurgon]

The TGP is a powerful camera however the fov can become so narrow that it is easy to miss a target as well as becoming very time consuming.

 

Let me be the one to say that you're right in not getting too invested in the TGP. :thumbup:

 

Generally speaking, the more time you spend looking at the TGP, the more difficult it will be to build and maintain situational awareness because of that soda straw effect you describe (it's like looking through a soda straw with one eye while the other eye is completely covered).

 

But I must admit that even after years of flying the A-10C I still struggle with SA when the targets are too far away to be spotted with the naked eye, or located in an nondescript area (like one of many similar villages with no major rivers, roads, railways, or buildings to make an easy distinction between them), or simply difficult to spot.

 

Anyway, the TGP is obviously the tool of choice for setting up precision guided munitions, and for setting up attacks from a safe distance. Just remember to look out the window every now and then. Actually, I read that the heads down/heads up ratio should not exceed 50% heads down (which, once again, I fail to adhere to more often than not - but it's good advice anyway :music_whistling: :)).

 

If you're forced to fly low because of air defenses, it may be wiser to rely on Mk1 eyeballs and the Maverick seeker to pop off quick shots at targets of opportunity.

 

One more thing, since visibility and spotting distances in a 2D rendering of a 3D world are never like in real life, I like to use the Zoom function to zoom in and out. Especially with the A-10 I don't even consider this cheating, as real A-10 pilots used to carry (and maybe still do, don't know for sure) binoculars, which they used to look out the cockpit in order to spot targets. They definitely did so until TGPs were fielded.

 

One other thing. I am using a flight stick and keyboard. I think adding a HOTAS and head tracking won't make me see better but I think it would save time, add efficiency and make the whole process less fatiguing.

 

Absolutely!

 

A head tracker is going to increase your situational awareness by orders of magnitude.

 

A good HOTAS set is also going to help a lot. It won't make you a better pilot, but it will significantly reduce your workload, since you can pretty much push the same buttons real pilots would push in the same situation. :thumbup:

 

Something I've been doing to get an eye on targets is to actually fly parallel to my target area on autopilot about 15-18nm out and up [...]

 

All around good advice! :thumbup:

[Xavven]

Track IR is pretty much mandatory as far as I'm concerned. I played DCS without it for a while, and when I finally bought Track IR the experience was 1000% better.

 

As for spotting targets visually, it's very hard to do that with your eyeballs above 10000 AGL. If you're going to search with your TGP, I tend to like the WHOT or BHOT better than CCD as targets tend to stand out more. If you read A-10's Over Kosovo, you'll get some accounts of pilots spending hours looking around from 10,000 AGL with binoculars and not seeing any targets. It's why good intel from ground forces or a recon drone is still a thing :)

[LeCuvier]

Waypoint Altitude?

 

I have been spending a lot of time with the a 10c over the past couple of weeks and one of the big problems I am having is finding targets without using labels.

 

I have read quite a few posts and looked at various tutorials discussing strategies employed to find targets.

 

I finally decided to learn how to input coordinates to the CDU thinking that was probably my best shot at narrowing the places to look with the TGP.

 

So I was able to get latitude and longitude input to the CDU and created a quick mission with objects on a waypoint. I slaved the TGP to the waypoint coordinates and started looking. So far I have not been able to find a single target without using labels, even on a mission I created using what I thought was a good method.

 

I am aware this is a skill for which there is no substitute for practice and trial and error experiments.

 

However, I am making no progress after many hours. I really thought the CDU would be my best tool. I don't know what to do next. I'm out of ideas.

I agree that it's very difficult to find targets through the TGP in version 1.5.

Well-positioned waypoints are my only way to get them quickly, assuming my JTAC has given me good coordinates. Initially I was not too successful because I had not overridden the default altitude and so my line of view took me to a point well beyond the target. Now I take care to set waypoint altitude (AGL!) for targets to the minimum and I find my targets (using the IR mode generally) even in 1.5.

[hhatch]

I am finally starting to find some targets. One thing I needed to do is enter the elevation of the waypoint where my targets were into the cdu as mentioned above. The elevation shown in the cdu was 6562 which appears to be a default value of my plane in mission editor. The elevation on the map was 36.

 

I also noticed a big difference in being able to identify targets based on the texture of the land. I did a quick experiment. I was looking out of the plane with labels on and saw some targets and turned off labels to see what I could see with my naked eye zoomed in. I could see some targets, but one disappeared and was invisible and I doubt anyone could see it with the naked eye . Maybe it could be seen with the pod zoomed in , but I did not try that.

 

I also tried flying parallel to the target at slow speed. This bought some time and relative safety. However when I spot something with my naked eye and want to take a closer look, I had trouble getting the tgp into the right position, particularly if the wp which I slaved the tgp to is not visible because it's way off to the side.

 

So there is a slight hint of progress. I'm not sure I'll ever get good at this. The old eyes of this retiree are getting tired. I think I'll take a little break.

[Yurgon]

hhatch said:

One thing I needed to do is enter the elevation of the waypoint where my targets were into the cdu as mentioned above. The elevation shown in the cdu was 6562 which appears to be a default value of my plane in mission editor. The elevation on the map was 36.

Waypoint elevation is extremely important! If the waypoint is too high, all your sensors will look right through it and stare at the ground, probably miles beyond the waypoint.

In the Mission Editor, when you set waypoints (and in the Mission Planner, where you can adjust them), you can easily set the elevation for each waypoint, also see the attached screenshot. Pro tip: Just set the elevation to 0. The Mission Editor will automatically adjust it to the lowest possible value, aka ground level.

I like to have my flightplan-waypoints at the correct altitude, say 16,000 ft if that's how high I want to fly, but always set target waypoints down to ground level or else the TGP will be almost useless when slaved to these waypoints.

So, you can make your life a lot easier by setting it up correctly in the ME, and you can also easily adjust waypoint elevation by sloppy (or nasty :D) mission designers in the mission planner in the same way.

hhatch said:

I also tried flying parallel to the target at slow speed. This bought some time and relative safety. However when I spot something with my naked eye and want to take a closer look, I had trouble getting the tgp into the right position, particularly if the wp which I slaved the tgp to is not visible because it's way off to the side.

Yeah, that's a common problem.

In that situation, instead of trying to slew the TGP for the next 5 hours until I get close to the target, I usually reset it to Boresight (China hat aft short), fly towards the target (which I keep in sight all the time) and with TGP as SOI, I ground stabilize it with TMS up short somewhere near the target. Since I should see the TGP caret on the HUD, and have the target in sight, I can then slew the TGP to the target while I turn away from the target in order to set up for attack from a safe distance.

(Instead of the TGP, you could also make the HUD SOI and use the TDC in mostly the same way)

Edited March 27 by Yurgon
Attachments removed

[hhatch]

[quote=

 

 

 

 

Yeah, that's a common problem.

 

In that situation, instead of trying to slew the TGP for the next 5 hours until I get close to the target, I usually reset it to Boresight (China hat aft short), fly towards the target (which I keep in sight all the time) and with TGP as SOI, I ground stabilize it with TMS up short somewhere near the target. Since I should see the TGP caret on the HUD, and have the target in sight, I can then slew the TGP to the target while I turn away from the target in order to set up for attack from a safe distance.

 

(Instead of the TGP, you could also make the HUD SOI and use the TDC in mostly the same way)

 

I've been doing something like that with multiple targets. I mark targets, turn away, and then come back with Mavericks and slave the mavs to steerpoints which are my marks. Then I cycle thru the marks, slave the mav and fire. I managed to get off 4 in one pass once. I love mavs. My problem has been finding the targets.

 

Getting the elevation fixed has helped a lot. After I look at the map for geographic references I zoom in with my eyes and use those references to establish where to scan with the tgp. This has helped to make the scan more productive and efficient as I move my eyes between the tgp and the windscreen. This really got me thinking about head tracking.

 

Another thing I've been trying to figure out is the best altitude to use for targeting. Of course there are any number of things with come into play like the range of enemy threats. For eyeball scanning for me things get dicey at about 8,000 plus. I noticed too at higher altitudes targets appear to be almost under the plane even though I might be 6 miles or more from the waypoint.

Edited December 12, 2015 by hhatch

[Zimmerdylan]

Track IR is pretty much mandatory as far as I'm concerned. I played DCS without it for a while, and when I finally bought Track IR the experience was 1000% better.

 

As for spotting targets visually, it's very hard to do that with your eyeballs above 10000 AGL. If you're going to search with your TGP, I tend to like the WHOT or BHOT better than CCD as targets tend to stand out more. If you read A-10's Over Kosovo, you'll get some accounts of pilots spending hours looking around from 10,000 AGL with binoculars and not seeing any targets. It's why good intel from ground forces or a recon drone is still a thing :)

 

 

 

That's pretty crazy, I was chatting with an A10 pilot today who pretty much told me the same thing. About Kosovo I mean. He said that there would be spotter planes that would mark the targets with smoke rockets for A10's.

[Yurgon]

Another thing I've been trying to figure out is the best altitude to use for targeting.

 

When I have a choice, I try to stay above 16,000 ft, as that should provide safety against all short range threats like AAA and MANPADs and also gives me a lot of options for maneuvering.

 

On the other hand, with a bunch of buddies we have a counter insurgency scenario where the bulk of the work is to evacuate wounded with helos, and I like to provide CAS for them. When they spot tanks or truck-mounted anti-air-guns, there's not much time to kill the threat, and so flying low and trying to spot tracers is the way to go. That way I can have weapons on the bad guys within 30 seconds, the gun being my favorite weapon.

 

In essence, the "correct" altitude really depends on the scenario.

[Mike5560]

If you forget to change the target waypoint altitude on the mission planner, you can adjust the waypoint's altitude on the CDU.

 

The way I see it, you have several options for acquiring a target and/ or having the TGP on a target that you identify otherwise.

Visual spot / TDC: You see a potential target or ground object through the canopy and turn to point your nose at it.

Make the HUD SOI, slew the TDC over the target, TMS up long, turn away and China hat fwd long to slave TGP to SPI and boom.... you now have TGP in the area....make any fine adjustments with TGP SOI and TMS up long to make TGP as SPI generator.

-Alternatively, you can do this directly with a TGP diamond, as long as it's boresighted and SOI. (ground slewing will be slower than the TDC)

Visual spot/ ground reference/ markpoint on TAD: You see a potential ground object through the canopy, then determine if it might correlate with an object or terrain feature on the TAD.

Select the TAD as SOI, slew to the target's location and TMS right to create a ground markpoint. From here you can either hook the markpoint and make spi and slew the TGP; or make sure the CDU selector dial is set to "mark", call up the corresponding markpoint and china hat aft long to slew TGP to markpoint.

 

Shoot first, ask questions later: You identify a hostile object and want to shoot at it, but also want the TGP in the area. Roll in and shoot with weapons of choice, egress, make sure CDU selector dial is set to "mark", then select Z-mark (location of last weapons effects) and China hat aft long to the Z mark point.

 

Wingman help: Have your wingman find something, i.e. engage targets of opportunity on single player. Now you have to make the TAD SOI and watch the TAD for blue lines originating from your wingman. At the end of the blue line should lie a small wedding cake (SPI marker). From here, you can slew your TAD cursor and hook (TMS up, then TMS up long) the SPI and China hat fwd long to slew you TGP to your wingman's SPI.

 

Hope that helps, having a HMCS would really help this process :smilewink:

Edited December 12, 2015 by Mike5560

[hhatch]

Very useful. Thanks