Real ka50 trim

[Migow]

hi ,interesting video it seems IRL the ka50 pilot use "click" trimmer method

 

[LupinYonder]

You can use the click method if you have FFB stick. If not the simulated loss of force on the stick from the trim reset causes the ingame stick to jump a bit. You can anticipate this with the long hold trim method. With the frequent click method, errors build up due to the jump and you will find it very hard to trim to a specific attitude.

 

That my experience anyway ( ka-50 pilot since BS1 first release )

 

If you a masochist then use the forum search tool for BS trimming. A lot of "discussion" in there.

Edited January 20, 2016 by LupinYonder

[Irregular programming]

Eh, I can use the click trim method fine in game without FFB.

 

I've never understood the issue with trimming the ka50, certainly it's not the most difficult part in the sim.

 

Regarding click or hold just use whatever you feel is easier, I tend to mix between both depending on the situation.

[Eagle0110]

Well said about depends on the situation, there don't seem to be "the only right way" of using the trim, you use it however the situation requires.

 

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[Rogue Trooper]

Click trim here too, never hold trim. no FFB.

[Esac_mirmidon]

I´m almost sure his is flying in Flight Director Mode.

 

It´s impossible to do some maneuvers with the AFCS on with all three channels on so clean without FD mode on.

 

He must be fighting the AFCS in the middle of almost all maneuvers if FD is OFF and his finger also off the trim button.

[Enduro14]

Flight director mode is all i fly unless im in a stationary FFp

[AlphaOneSix]

I´m almost sure his is flying in Flight Director Mode.

 

It´s impossible to do some maneuvers with the AFCS on with all three channels on so clean without FD mode on.

 

He must be fighting the AFCS in the middle of almost all maneuvers if FD is OFF and his finger also off the trim button.

 

I wouldn't be so sure about that. I am entirely unconvinced that the real Shark's autopilot behaves this way, based on my experience with other Russian helicopters. But who knows, maybe I'm wrong.

[DieHard]

You can use the click method if you have FFB stick. If not the simulated loss of force on the stick from the trim reset causes the ingame stick to jump a bit. You can anticipate this with the long hold trim method. With the frequent click method, errors build up due to the jump and you will find it very hard to trim to a specific attitude.

 

That my experience anyway ( ka-50 pilot since BS1 first release )

 

If you a masochist then use the forum search tool for BS trimming. A lot of "discussion" in there.

 

I use the click method all the time and usually all three channels are on. I use CH Control Manager utility. My gear are: Fighterstick, Pro Throttle, Pro Pedals all USB connectors. My stuff at least 6 years old if not older.

 

I have flown BS1 and BS2 exclusively 2 or 3 years. I have the Upgrade version of the BS2 copter, just kept purchasing updated versions. Used to hang out with Cooper quite a lot and some of the Aussie guys in MP.

 

Don't say it can't be done. I do it! You get used to doing what you get used to.

[Esac_mirmidon]

I'm assuming it because the AFCS behaviour inside DCS with the three channels on, independently of the trimmer method used. If this behaviour is like the real Ka-50 the pilot would be fighting the % authority of the AFCS all the time because he is not pushing the trimmer very often. Only in step pitch down attitude.

 

Maybe the real Ka-50 AFCS isnt exactly like in DCS but with ED Kamov as reference its impossible to fly and maneouver so clean with AFCS three channrles on without trimming a lot, except in Flight Director mode.

 

Maybe the real Ka-50 is more similar to Mi-8 AFCS where if you push the rudder pedals or the clyclic tje AFCS is disconnected giving free movement to the pilot until press release or trimmed again. I dont know really.

 

Im only pointing that in this video the flight is very precise and clean with almost no trim at all and this goes against what we can experience in DCS right now with the AFCS on without FD.

[King_Hrothgar]

The question I have is why would any of you think he'd be in anything other than FD mode (or full manual) while doing that stuff? The FD off modes are for flying in a straight line or hovering. The instant you're trying to do something other than that, you really should be switching to another mode. At least that's how it is in game, obviously the real thing could be totally different.

[Weta43]

I agree -'it's bound to be in FD mode & I'd expect the AP on the shark to be quite different to that on other helicopters. The Ka-50 was intended to be flow in a completely different manner to (say) the Mi-8 - in the Mi-8 has a full time pilot, and the AP channels are there to 'assist' the pilot, who flies heads up.

During search and attack, the shark pilot is for at least part of the time flying head down, and relying on the AP to fly the aircraft autonomously (turn on target, hover & rout following modes) while they act as the weapons officer.

Conceptually, it seems more of a true auto-pilot, rather than a pilot aide, and you wouldn't try to do acrobatics in a fixed wing with the AP turned on....

[AlphaOneSix]

The question I have is why would any of you think he'd be in anything other than FD mode (or full manual) while doing that stuff? The FD off modes are for flying in a straight line or hovering. The instant you're trying to do something other than that, you really should be switching to another mode. At least that's how it is in game, obviously the real thing could be totally different.

 

This is my belief, so that is why I don't think he is in FD mode.

[Esac_mirmidon]

And why ED would make a Ka-50 totally different from the real thing?

[159th_Falcon]

They don't, it just feels that way;

 

In sim do the following;

Start up the KA-50 on the ramp using autostart.

(just to make sure dampening is enabled and FD is off)

 

Bring up controls indicator whit Rctrl + Enter

 

Give full right deflection and check on control indicator you reach the end of the box

 

Now give 50% of left roll, trim it there and release your joystick.

 

Controls indicator will (and should) still indicate whatever amount of left roll you trimmed. (50%)

 

Now, whitout trimming input full right roll on your joystick again, you will notice the ingame controls go full right minus the amount of left stick you trimmed. (50%)

 

This effect is what gives people the feeling there fighting the autopilot, not the way the autopilot, trim and dampening systems actually works and are modelled.

 

Note, the above does not apply to FFB setups.

[Esac_mirmidon]

But in the real Ka-50 the AFCS actually has a % of authority over pilot inputs if the three channels are on.

[159th_Falcon]

No, the pilot can override the AFCS at any time by "brute force".

And no that does not mean you have to be an olympic weightlifter to be able to do that.

 

Also, whatever amount of control authority the AFCS has, it does not change anything I stated in my previous post.

Besides, if the AFCS is on, or better said, the autopilot. The pilot should not be giving inputs.

If the autopilot is off, and FD is off aswell then the pilot should steer using trimmer, but can override the trimmer by force as well.

(it's a fail safe feature)

(autopilot would be things like, auto-hover, heading hold, route follow, etc)

Edited January 24, 2016 by 159th_Falcon

[Eagle0110]

Guys, you do understand that, other than turning on FD mode, AP channels are also disengaged (with dumpers still on) as long as you are holding down the trim button, right?

 

I found myself having a hard time get what the problem everyone seems to have a disagreement here :(

 

Doesn't it work simply like this? You are flying straight with AP maintaining attitude, altitude and heading =>> you need to maneuver, so hold down trim button, you steer with full control authority =>> you finish the maneuver and established a new stable attitude and speed and altitude =>> release trim button which re-engage stick centering force with this current/new stick position as the center (either real force on you FFB stick or the "simulated" stick force with stick centering displacement) AND let AP maintain this new stable flight condition for the rest of the time.

 

What is the problem? :/

 

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[159th_Falcon]

there is no problem, there is a discussion on whether you could perform the manoeuvres shown in the video whit FD mode off and dampening on, without using the trimmer button.

 

I'd say you can.

[Eagle0110]

there is no problem, there is a discussion on whether you could perform the manoeuvres shown in the video whit FD mode off and dampening on, without using the trimmer button.

 

I'd say you can.

Ohhhhh... Okay

 

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[Esac_mirmidon]

So the pilot in the video is flying with all three autopilot channels on and pushing the cyclic enough to counter the authority % of the AFCS in every maneuver?

 

All the time?

 

I´m not an expert at all but if this is the case why Flight Director mode exists?

[AlphaOneSix]

But in the real Ka-50 the AFCS actually has a % of authority over pilot inputs if the three channels are on.

 

So does the Mi-8.

 

I´m not an expert at all but if this is the case why Flight Director mode exists?

 

To give the pilot cues to follow to get to the desired/programmed heading, airspeed, etc. when hand flying a route, just like the flight director on any other aircraft. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_director_(aeronautics)

Edited January 24, 2016 by AlphaOneSix

[Bucic]

It's been years since I've flown the '50. Is the bump on trim press still present?

/watch?v=UJqIR9IT374

[ame]

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[Esac_mirmidon]

So again, with AFCS on the authority over pilot´s inputs in real life are really so small, the amount of effort over the cyclic so little to be able to fly so clean and precisely OVER the AFCS control almost without trimming?

 

I dont have any problem at all with that if´s true but in consecuence the Ka-50 in DCS is clearly overmodelled because the resistance to any input is very intense.

 

Maybe the answer is FFB joysticks vs No FFB joysticks. And the problem is the non FFB joysticks, not the AFCS behaviour in DCS.

[Flagrum]

The trap I am (still) falling into occassionally is trying to maneuver without holding tim and the heading channel on. I bank, but the aircraft just does not start to turn - here the 20% AP authority become very aparent to me.

All other channels don't really hinder my maneuvering ... or I just don't really notice it.

 

So, maybe the pilot just had the heading channel off? :o)