Survival in the F-15 - new to electronic warfare

[Reflected]

Hi All,

 

I have years of experience in open cockpit canvas planes as well as WW2 warbirds. I do relatively well online in RoF, Il2, and rarely get shot down in my Mustang here in DCS.

 

HOWEVER...

 

I just bought the F-15 so that by the time the Tomcat comes I will have some experience. I spent days reading manuals and forum posts, and now I can confidently shoot down bombers. I can flame them BVR with AMRAAMs, or from closer range with sparrows, sidewinders, guns, treid the boresight mode, flood mode, etc...

 

One I'm facing an armed AI though, it goes like this: bipp...bipp...bip bip bip...weeiiuuweeeiiuuuu.. KABOOOOOM. :joystick:

 

So I have a couple of questions:

What mode should I use? TWS or the other one? I heard TWS won't disclose my tracking him to the enemy, but it's less efficient at long ranges.

 

Sometimes I get a warning that a missile has been fired at me, sometimes I don't. What I definitely don' know if it's a radar guided one or a heat seeker, and I have no idea how far and where the h*ll it is. Therefore I don't know when to perform evasive maneuvers.

 

Once in close combat, how do you track your targets? They can get really far, much further than that Fokker dr1 I'm circling above usually. In seconds they disappear in front of the ground textures.

 

ECM: When it's on, it automatically jams everyone else, and they get the same on their screens when I try to lock a bomber and get those ladders? (HOJ) If so, why would anyone turn it off at all? As long as the cross is not blinking it's on?

 

How do you avoid being locked? How do you keep attacking and still evade the missiles? Any rules of thumb would be much appreciated. Thanks!

Edited February 26, 2016 by Reflected

[Sryan]

HOJ is the exact reason nobody leaves ECM on forever. HOJ stands for Home On Jam. You can fire a radar guided missile, wich should normally give a warning. in HOJ mode it does not give a warning. At close ranges, ECM doesn't work. Enemy radars will perform a burn through.

 

You should look into the radar warning receiver in the manual and online. It's one of the advantages the F15 has over russian planes in how informative it is on multiple threats and their azimuth. the short bips is when you are being scanned. the fast bips mean you are being tracked ( locked on ) and the weiu sound is a missile launch warning. That warning will only play once every so many seconds. So you are still being guided on even when you don't hear it anymore. Use the RWR display to see where the threat is coming from and react appropiatly. The bad guy that has you locked has a circle around him so you have a clue where it is coming from ( it most likely will also have a diamond around it wich is the RWR's way of telling "hey! this guy might be your biggest threat").

 

The strong point about infrared guided missiles is that they do not give off any warning. The two ways to defeat an IR missile is by actively seeing it coming or having the situational awareness that you may be in the weapons envelope zone of an enemy and drop flares preemptively. Russians have the medium range R27-ET that can lock on from an impressive distance if you are going full afterburner. They also have the R73 wich is capable of off-boresight locking and thrust vectoring making almost the whole front hemisphere of the enemy plane a danger zone.

 

Getting good SA requires practice ( and maybe an awacs :) ). I recomend you grab a tool like Tacview to analyze your flights. It's great for understanding the flow of battle and how and why you got shot down.

 

have a nice day!

[probad]

tws vs stt comes down to how you want to leverage their characteristics. tws might not alert an enemy, but the active pinging of an stt might intimidate a less aggressive human pilot. sometimes youre stuck with stt bc youre using sparrows or their aspect is such that you need an stt mode like medium prf to lock. its fine to just sit in tws as a newbie, you will naturally discover the uses of stt as you encounter more exotic engagement scenarios. vs ai you might as well sit in tws forever, since stt will trigger the ai insta ecm spoof.

 

you need to know missile engagement ranges. against americans you dont even need to think about incoming heaters outside 10nm, russians you should perk up about 27et 20nm out. you have to be keen eyed and infer from your rwr and what you see outside of the cockpit window. thankfully russian missiles leave a nice smoke trail, but amraams dont so you have to prime yourself to be ready to counter to begin with (actually that should be something you do regardless, else its like going into a fight stanceless).

dodging missiles is all about leveraging missile tracking mechanics against them, what youre really doing is tiring the missile out. to that end, methodical course changes over a long period are always more effective than wild maneuvers. its just that sometimes you get blindsided or otherwise dont have the luxury of time to be pacing out your evasion so you have to compress all your moves.

 

tracking targets is a combination of proficient radar use, eyework, and guesswork. your eye will get better at picking out the enemy plane at a distance as you fly more. the visuals in dcs are improving but still are missing some important optical fx you would benefit from irl. in regards to wvr, if you really want to win, dont play with your prey. put a missile in him the moment you can and be done with it. its all on you if you tempt fate playing out your top gun wvr fantasies.

 

hoj is a red herring in this game as ecm will always be overcome within missile launch range, but at range ecm can be a nice beacon for anyone else to see where you are at. if youre trying to sneak up on a guy through some ditch it doesnt make sense to be an icecream truck about it. ecm can be good for hiding your aspect, like if you're extending away and dont want the pursuer to get an optimum intercept angle on you, or if you want to reverse... etc. ecm is also very annoying to just cover the radar with at range, its a bit annoying when you have a contact at 20nm but hes sitting on top of a ladder and you accidentally lock the singer who is 90nm away or something dumb like that. the potential uses of it is more an issue of how creative and resourceful you are.

 

experiment against real people and you will get these answers in a hurry, most of these things vs ai arent good for much more than roleplaying. all that matters against ai is the joust and theyre awfully bad at it.

 

anways bottom line here is that it comes down to situational awareness, you need to be aware of who is out there, where they are, and what their options are. agreed on tacview to review your fights.

 

fly, read, think, fly again.

Edited February 26, 2016 by probad

[TAW_Blaze]

Hi All,

 

I have years of experience in open cockpit canvas planes as well as WW2 warbirds. I do relatively well online in RoF, Il2, and rarely get shot down in my Mustang here in DCS.

 

HOWEVER...

 

I just bought the F-15 so that by the time the Tomcat comes I will have some experience. I spent days reading manuals and forum posts, and now I can confidently shoot down bombers. I can flame them BVR with AMRAAMs, or from closer range with sparrows, sidewinders, guns, treid the boresight mode, flood mode, etc...

 

One I'm facing an armed AI though, it goes like this: bipp...bipp...bip bip bip...weeiiuuweeeiiuuuu.. KABOOOOOM. :joystick:

 

So I have a couple of questions:

What mode should I use? TWS or the other one? I heard TWS won't disclose my tracking him to the enemy, but it's less efficient at long ranges.

 

Sometimes I get a warning that a missile has been fired at me, sometimes I don't. What I definitely don' know if it's a radar guided one or a heat seeker, and I have no idea how far and where the h*ll it is. Therefore I don't know when to perform evasive maneuvers.

 

Once in close combat, how do you track your targets? They can get really far, much further than that Fokker dr1 I'm circling above usually. In seconds they disappear in front of the ground textures.

 

ECM: When it's on, it automatically jams everyone else, and they get the same on their screens when I try to lock a bomber and get those ladders? (HOJ) If so, why would anyone turn it off at all? As long as the cross is not blinking it's on?

 

How do you avoid being locked? How do you keep attacking and still evade the missiles? Any rules of thumb would be much appreciated. Thanks!

 

HOJ is useless in this game. None of your missiles fly far enough to make use of it.

 

General rule of thumb of not getting shot down is building situational awareness continously, which mostly consists of mapping enemy and friendly positions around you. To do this efficiently you first need to be very good at using the radar. This is where most people fail, but then again there isn't that much good information about it. In general use RWS to search for bandits and once you find someone use TWS to gather information about him without having to STT him. Read the manual, it has some things about how to use the radar, although some of the most important stuff are missing.

 

PRF selection should be MED once a bandit is within 25nm and HIGH once he's outside 25nm. Don't use the one that keeps cycling between HI and MED.

 

You can't avoid being locked. You can jam people outside 25nm but they can still lock you, except they wont know your exact position.

 

RWR can only alert you of radar guided missiles, all IR are passively guided. Avoiding IR missiles is mostly about your SA and either spotting them in time or just presuming they are already there. RWRs have an angular limit and if you're in a steep bank or the guy is attacking from directly below/above you it's possible the RWR won't pick up anything. You need to be aware of this when you're turning hard.

 

RWR indication will also give you a very rough indication of how far the guy is. The further towards the edge of the circle he is, the further. But this is relative, for instance a MiG-21 at the edge of the circle will be already at 20 miles! Using this information is all about experience.

 

If something's firing at you what you have to do first is identify where the guy is attacking from. You can't really defend against a guy if you don't know where he is. For the moment let's assume you'll get bearing and launch indication from the RWR, this helps a lot. Depending on how close he is (you can guess this based on RWR like I said before) and other empiric knowledge like how missiles perform in the game you can make a decision whether you can fight back or you have to run. There's a part of the range scale where you HAVE to run. There's also the part of the scale where he's so close you have to fight.

 

If you have the room to fight, you need to find him with your radar. Based on RWR input this should be easy if you know how to handle the radar.

 

There are some thumb rules of how to win a BVR fight. It goes something like this:

 

- be higher and faster than the other guy. If you can't do one or both, then you'd better be sneaky as ****.

 

- minimize closure towards the opponent and his missiles. This is done by NOT flying directly towards him. Think of a little trigonometry and you'll see how flying straight at something is not beneficial to reducing closure rate. Combine this with your elevation/azimuth steering limits of your antenna and you'll end up with the infamous "crank" maneuver. This is basically taking an offset from a guy while maintaining picture of him to reduce closure.

 

- fire earlier than the other guy. This should be taken with a grain of salt because inproper application of this will result in bad things. With sufficient empirical knowledge about the general behavior of things in the game you'll be able to tell whether it's good to fire early in a given situation or not.

 

Stop bothering with AI. Install tacview and play MP. Join the 104th TS for example, lots of friendly people who'll happily answer questions. Tacview will help you figure out the things that can't be explained over TS.

[probad]

RWR indication will also give you a very rough indication of how far the guy is. The further towards the edge of the circle he is, the further. But this is relative, for instance a MiG-21 at the edge of the circle will be already at 20 miles! Using this information is all about experience.

 

rwr range on the f15 is a function of signal strength, not actual range, this is very important to remember. anemic is how id describe the 21's radar. it was a sad day when i realized i couldnt burn through a f15's ecm 1000ft away.

 

also cant agree enough about flying against real people.

Edited February 26, 2016 by probad

[TAW_Blaze]

rwr range on the f15 is a function of signal strength, not actual range, this is very important to remember. anemic is how id describe the 21's radar.

 

also cant agree enough about flying against real people.

 

That's why I said it gives a very rough indication of range. :)

[probad]

PRF selection should be MED once a bandit is within 25nm and HIGH once he's outside 25nm. Don't use the one that keeps cycling between HI and MED.

 

tell me more about this, this doesnt match with what i know about what prf modes are for

[TAW_Blaze]

tell me more about this, this doesnt match with what i know about what prf modes are for

 

I'm not the best reference on this because albeit I've read Stimson's book my knowledge is still very limited. But from what I gather ingame PRF affects things highly different than how it should, realistically. What I can tell you for sure that if you use HIGH PRF against anything near beam or cold aspect, he will drop off your radar and never show up again. MED is usually good in any aspect once the guy is inside 25nm.

[probad]

thinking more about what you said, its pretty spot on from an end results point of view

[TAW_Blaze]

Yea but it's either modeled wrong or PRF selection changes a hell of a lot more things in the system than the PRF system that we don't know about. Decreasing the PRF itself wouldn't decrease the max. unambiguous, but rather increase it. In the game you have HPRF with a far longer range detection limit. That's the complete opposite.

[GGTharos]

HPRF is used for longer detection in pretty much every modern fighter radar. MPRF is used for tail-on targets and relatively closer ranges and confers better clutter rejection IRL. There's also the RGH mode which uses an inbetween PRF; it is IIRC used for target break-out and cannot be used below 6000' agl (it will self-jam).

[Bushmanni]

PRF isn't just about unambiguous range measurement. The actual details how MPRF and HPRF works in particular radar set seems to be a secret to some degree but there's info for some of the tricks the radars use in these modes to resolve range.

 

Unambiguous range can be increased with some signal processing tricks like using slightly different PRF for consecutive pulses. After getting multiple returns from the target using different PRF's the true range can be deducted with high degree of probability.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Range_ambiguity_resolution

 

Or the radar can momentarily use LPRF to measure the range of detected target and then continue search using HPRF.

 

The radar can also use some other means to detect the range of target than pulse time of flight. Radar can shift the frequency of each pulse slightly so that the frequency of the target echo gives you the range. It's essentially FM ranging. This method possibly reduces range resolution but it's better than nothing. This of course still has ambiguity in it because of target movement causing Doppler shift so you need additional processing to resolve that.

 

I haven't found info on which radar uses what tricks to resolve the ambiguities as there's several known methods and probably publicly unknown methods for resolving ambiguous range. PRF setting doesn't just change the PRF but also the signal processing involved with it. MPRF and HPRF modes without additional processing are essentially VS (Velocity Search) modes that can't measure the range to target unless it's relatively close.

 

HPRF puts more energy on target and hence has longer detection range but requires additional processing to resolve the range and range resolution is possibly reduced (depends on the method used and the processing power and hardware available). MPRF has similar problem with range ambiguity but to a lesser degree and hence requires less processing and suffers less additional problems. I haven't found good info about why the HPRF has problems detecting opening range targets other than that their echo is lost in sidelobe clutter which is a problem for detection relying mostly on doppler shift. The answer is in the signal processing details and antenna sidelobe levels and side lobe suppression techniques but haven't found good info about those.

 

So yeah, the PRF modeling currently is highly simplistic but the visible result does work somewhat like in the real world.

[Bushmanni]

Regarding RGH mode: Does the pilot give the radar the expected range of target in this mode hence resolving the range ambiguity?

[GGTharos]

It is to my knowledge fully automated, no pilot input necessary. It's used to break-out targets that are close together. The 1970's claim to fame (or maybe early 80's) was 1/10th beamwidth resolution at 40nm.

[Reflected]

Thanks for all your advice! I managed to survive my first couple missions against AI MIGs. I still have a huge problem with SA. I lose the bogey as soon as I start defensive maneuvers especially after merge. I just installed the large impostors mod but it doesn't help much.

 

Can you recommend a server in Europe with realistic settings where I can fly the F-15?

[Nerd1000]

Thanks for all your advice! I managed to survive my first couple missions against AI MIGs. I still have a huge problem with SA. I lose the bogey as soon as I start defensive maneuvers especially after merge. I just installed the large impostors mod but it doesn't help much.

 

Can you recommend a server in Europe with realistic settings where I can fly the F-15?

 

Its very easy to lose track of your enemy in a visual range dogfight. With enough practice you can learn to predict where he is likely to be and look for him after you lose contact (I generally start by checking my six...) The F-15 also has two useful dogfighting radar modes available: Vertical scan, which scans a vertical 'pie slice' in front of your jet, and boresight, which scans a narrow cone straight ahead. Both of these modes will lock the closest thing to your jet automatically (IIRC you have to push the lock button, but I'm not a F-15 flyer so don't take my word for it). These modes mean that- if you can guess where your foe is likely to be- re-acquiring your target is as simple as pointing your nose at his probable location and pressing the lock button.

 

The other nice feature for finding difficult to see targets at close range is the sidewinder missile. Its seeker scans a narrow cone in front of the plane like the radar's boresight mode and will lock on without prompting. The little circle that tells you where the sidewinder's seeker is looking will then jump onto the target. Given that if you're merged you probably already have the sidewinder selected, that little feature can be a big help. Finally, you can use other cues. The MiG-29, for example, has engines that are well known for producing ludicrous amounts of black, sooty smoke unless the afterburner is running. Sometimes you can follow his murky trail of pollution straight to him (Then give him a missile courtesy of the EPA :D).

 

As for servers, the 104th phoenix server (Located in the western United States, I think) is usually well populated and provides a convenient 'arena' for practicing A2A vs other players. I get acceptable pings on that server, and I'm logging on from the other side of the pacific through the developed world's slowest landline internet. You should have no problems. There's also usually a few people on the teamspeak server, and they'll probably be happy to help you out.

[TAW_Blaze]

In a BVR scenario your best friend is your memory when you need to reacquire a guy. Essentially the more information you can remember the better it is. Make a note of his heading, range, altitude, range, general behaviour in your head and it'll often be much easier to find him in case you had to turn into a direction where he's outside the gimbal limits.

 

Or you could have me as your wingman, because I'm usually like a tiny AWACS. :D

 

Keeping track of people post merge is a totally different story. Needs a lot of experience and understanding of BFM to predict how people maneuver and where they'll likely be regardless if you can see them or not.

[GGTharos]

Not really, you just need to get your face out of the HuD and actually track the bandit with your eyes.

 

Q: .... "But, but, GG, I can't fly the plane if I'm not looking at the HuD!"

A: That's your problem, and until you fix that habit you'll never get much better :P

 

In any case, keeping track of a bandit in BFM is primarily about looking at the bandit rather than any kind of experience - I don't care how much experience you have, I can be somewhere where you don't want me to be if you take your eyes off me - assuming at least that I'm in a position where I can make a relatively unpredictable move.

BFM itself is a matter of training and experience, tracking the bandit is a matter of eyes-on-bandit.

 

The first rule of BFM:

 

Lose sight, lose the fight.

 

 

Keeping track of people post merge is a totally different story. Needs a lot of experience and understanding of BFM to predict how people maneuver and where they'll likely be regardless if you can see them or not.

[blkspade]

First of all, while some people will say don't bother with AI (even if they are a fellow squad member) I find this to be bad advice. Especially if they haven't kept up with the improvements ED has made to the AI. Human behavior is very dynamic and you can't really know why they did this or that at any given time. The AI while stupid, is reliable for extrapolating certain information from missile engagements. Particularly if no one is giving you hard numbers, or when ED changes performance characteristics. I use tacview with single player engagements mostly.

 

For instance, they will always fire at Rmax, but never HOJ (which gives you a burn though range). Rmax is dynamic, tied to altitude (greatly), flight speed and closure rate, but also really low Pk. That knowledge is easily used against human pilots of like aircraft tells you if they fired with intent to kill, or to attempt to move you from an advantageous position. Knowing the urgency of the threat can guide your actions thereafter. Also anything you can repeat defensively against the AI's missiles will work against human opponents.

[blkspade]

Not really, you just need to get your face out of the HuD and actually track the bandit with your eyes.

 

Q: .... "But, but, GG, I can't fly the plane if I'm not looking at the HuD!"

A: That's your problem, and until you fix that habit you'll never get much better :P

 

In any case, keeping track of a bandit in BFM is primarily about looking at the bandit rather than any kind of experience - I don't care how much experience you have, I can be somewhere where you don't want me to be if you take your eyes off me - assuming at least that I'm in a position where I can make a relatively unpredictable move.

BFM itself is a matter of training and experience, tracking the bandit is a matter of eyes-on-bandit.

 

The first rule of BFM:

 

Lose sight, lose the fight.

 

That's not really fair to say when we have a sim where planes can literally turn transparent WVR.

[GGTharos]

Yes it is. By and large if your distance is so great in BFM that the opponent is turning transparent, you're both doing poor BFM anyway.

 

In any case, if you're going to take your eyes off the bandit to check the HuD (or as most people do, take your eyes off the HuD to check on the bandit :) ) you pretty much deserve what you get. If you're looking at him constantly and only take your eyes off for a moment while he's predictable, you'll pick him up again.

If you use terrain cues so you're looking in the right places, you'll pick him up again.

The visibility issue is an issue, but it's no excuse for having a laser etching of the HuD picture in your face ;)

[jester_]

Not really, you just need to get your face out of the HuD and actually track the bandit with your eyes.

 

Q: .... "But, but, GG, I can't fly the plane if I'm not looking at the HuD!"

A: That's your problem, and until you fix that habit you'll never get much better :P

 

In any case, keeping track of a bandit in BFM is primarily about looking at the bandit rather than any kind of experience - I don't care how much experience you have, I can be somewhere where you don't want me to be if you take your eyes off me - assuming at least that I'm in a position where I can make a relatively unpredictable move.

BFM itself is a matter of training and experience, tracking the bandit is a matter of eyes-on-bandit.

 

The first rule of BFM:

 

Lose sight, lose the fight.

 

Man this guy gets. Get your heads out of your cockpits for a change guys. Use your eyes. They're the best radar you have close up.

[TAW_Blaze]

You can lose him even if you're padlocked on him. Glancing at the HUD is mandatory at least every now and then because there's no sense of speed. You can go from 500 to 200 and often not notice until you already start buffeting. SFM was far better in that.

 

If you fly about 20-30 hours a week and most of it is BFM practice then you can probably develop a skill where you'll know how much speed you're going to bleed in a given situation but otherwise I seriously doubt that.

[SDsc0rch]

... By and large if your distance is so great in BFM that the opponent is turning transparent, you're both doing poor BFM anyway.

 

...

 

just backing up what GG is saying here ----- once you see BFM done properly, and what can be done if you permit too much range to develop

 

(hint: it involves you, a heater or a stream of metal moving at a high rate of speed, and your hair teeth and eyeballs)

 

remember, these are HIGH PERFORMANCE aircraft - and they are meant to be "max performed" ------ think about it, what does that actually MEAN??

 

it means they are meant to be flown MUCH HARDER than you think is even possible right now

 

trust me

 

 

 

you have to stay close - you have to keep your eyes on the bandit

 

and you have to max perform your jet

 

(whatever that means)

[GGTharos]

You can lose him even if you're padlocked on him. Glancing at the HUD is mandatory at least every now and then because

 

You don't know better :)

 

there's no sense of speed. You can go from 500 to 200 and often not notice until you already start buffeting. SFM was far better in that.

 

Lack of training and proper setup. There are audio cues to tell you how the aircraft is performing, aside from the buffeting. Yes, it takes practice and it takes flying your aircraft a LOT and knowing how much pull to put in, knowing the speed you started up and what speed you'll end up at. It takes reading and interpreting charts. But there's no need to constantly check your HuD at all; not only is the plane giving you cues (although there are a lot missing compared to RL), but you also maneuver in relation to the bandit ... and that's your other cue.

 

To be very precise, you're ok to cross-check your speed or whatever under certain situations, but most people are cross-checking the bandit not the other way around. Even I have half of those habits remaining and they're awful, I end up in the HuD too often and for too long when I don't need to be there. This tendency also discourages me from actually staring at them bandit when I really to (I feel safe in my HuD!)

 

If you fly about 20-30 hours a week and most of it is BFM practice then you can probably develop a skill where you'll know how much speed you're going to bleed in a given situation but otherwise I seriously doubt that.

 

Nope. Nowhere near that much. It takes maybe 10 hours of training by a very competent instructor (this is after basics of flight, form and aero training though) and then regular practice thereafter, but nothing on the order of 20-30 hours a week. Let's get this straight, RL fighter pilots who have it good, get 200 flight hours a year. How many of those are BFM?

 

But the other thing that real pilots do as well, while virtual pilots do not is ... their homework. The time is spent in reading, planning, briefing and de-briefing ... not 'just flying some BFM' and expecting to magically become proficient.

 

But again ... the first rule is lose sight, lose fight.