The stealth capabilities of the T-50 PAK FA

[Hummingbird]

Thought it would be interesting to have a thread discussing the stealth capabilitles of the PAK FA.

 

To me this doesn't promise well for it:

[Hummingbird]

F-22 & F-35 intake for comparison:

 

[Pilotasso]

To be fair the current prototypes are not using the final engines with the radar blockers yet. It's too early and the Russians are facing other bigger issues and challenges to get it to production.

[Hummingbird]

The engine intake ducts definitely need a redesign if they want it to be as stealthy as advertised, I believe "the size of a tennis ball" was mentioned? The challenge is doing it without losing too much thrust in the process.

[Vincent90]

As Pilotasso has mentioned: There is no way to tell how stealthy it is based on these prototypes.

 

It has placeholder engines with open intakes and exhausts, we have no clue how advanced the stealth coating is (which is a very important part of reducing the rcs) and the dodgy panel fit of recent pictures make it as visible as a whale on radar. It also shows that current flight tests aren't there to check if the stealth calculations and estimations are correct, it points to a more basic part of flight testing: getting all the parts to work together ;)

 

Comparing it to the F-22 and F-35 is useless as well. It was designed to be a different approach of affordability, manoeuvrability and stealth, more in line with the YF-23 and Eurocanards.

 

There is just no way we can guess the stealth capabilities based on pictures.

[Exorcet]

more in line with the YF-23 and Eurocanards.

I would consider the 23 more in line with the 22 than the Euro's. What did you mean by this?

 

Also, not up to date on the T-50. I know engine upgrades are planned, but I thought they were more a long term thing than short term?

 

I'm not that knowledgeable on stealth technology, but I wonder if 3D TVC will be used to offset some of the shaping disadvantages (if any) of the T-50. I've heard some complains about the adjustable LERX, but I don't see why it couldn't be locked in place for stealth.

[ФрогФут]

The engine intake ducts definitely need a redesign if they want it to be as stealthy as advertised, I believe "the size of a tennis ball" was mentioned? The challenge is doing it without losing too much thrust in the process.

It never was advertised like that.

To be fair the current prototypes are not using the final engines with the radar blockers yet. It's too early and the Russians are facing other bigger issues and challenges to get it to production.

These are final stage one engines. And radar blocker will just eat engine power.

[probad]

were there ever plans for hiding the compressor in the pakfa? changing the airflow to the engine isn't something you can simply tack on, not simply because of the airflow but also because serpentine ducts would represent a radical relocation of internal structure. the us aircraft were designed from the get-go to have their engine locations offset from the intakes to allow for compressor occlusion without dramatically affecting airflow.

considering both inboard and outboard of the engine pods cannot be expanded without changing rcs and aerodynamics, not to mention they are occupied by the internal weapon stations, the pakfa would literally need baffles to obscure the compressor from view. i was thinking something like a f-117 ram mesh but i found this from concerns about pakfa engine face back in 2012: http://paralay.com/pakfa/t50%20%2852%29.jpg

Edited March 10, 2016 by probad

[NOLA]

The engine intake ducts definitely need a redesign if they want it to be as stealthy as advertised, I believe "the size of a tennis ball" was mentioned? The challenge is doing it without losing too much thrust in the process.

1: Your picture is showing T-50-1. Compare stealth between F-35 and X-35.

 

2: Russians didn't go the full S-intake route for many obvious reasons. It isn't the only solution around to avoid RCS from engineface.

 

3: It will use radar blocker, which shockingly, T-50-1 doesn't have.

 

4: All this is available on the internet with minimal research.

 

5: Russians are not retarded, they are fully aware what S-intake is. Su-47 had them and guess what, they didnt forget about it since then.

[Solty]

To me Pakfa is still more of a 4.5Gen than 5Gen. It seems on par with the likes of Eurofighter and Rafale.

[ФрогФут]

1: Your picture is showing T-50-1. Compare stealth between F-35 and X-35.

 

2: Russians didn't go the full S-intake route for many obvious reasons. It isn't the only solution around to avoid RCS from engineface.

 

3: It will use radar blocker, which shockingly, T-50-1 doesn't have.

 

4: All this is available on the internet with minimal research.

 

5: Russians are not retarded, they are fully aware what S-intake is. Su-47 had them and guess what, they didnt forget about it since then.

3.

A) What is the purpose of goint to flight test, if whatever characteristics you get won't represent the real result?

B) What is the purpose of radar blocker, if you have intake ramp in front of it?

Edited March 10, 2016 by ФрогФут

[Hummingbird]

It never was advertised like that.

 

Are you sure? My comment was based on this:

[Boberro]

This plane is not dead yet?

I've heard India ran away some time ago leaving Russia with flying shape.

[ФрогФут]

Are you sure? My comment was based on this:

It also states, that the intakes are S-shaped.:)

[Hummingbird]

It also states, that the intakes are S-shaped.:)

 

Yeah, so they infact falsely advertised on two accounts :D

[SkateZilla]

A small reflector cover like ones used in the F-18E/F/G would fix the intake design problem.

[Hummingbird]

Been researching this abit and we're probably looking at a blocker and not the actual fan blades of the engine itself. The F/A-18E features a similar radar blocking fan.

[RoflSeal]

Yeah, that picture in the OP looks like a blocker not the fan itself.

[Hook47]

I would agree, we have little idea what we are looking at, but that may be the blocker.

 

I also agree that the Russians aren't stupid. They use a different approach to problems than the USA, and don't have the luxury of throwing trillions of dollars at a problem until it goes away. Having a different or even simpler approach doesn't make them wrong, just different. The Russians have made some amazing aircraft with that line of thinking.

 

Either way it's kind of interesting to me that one particular authority in the U.S. aviation field thinks the whole stealth thing is kind of a joke anyway. I guess only time will tell how important it really will be in future warfare. My bet is better sensor, SA due to battle space technology, and weapons will surpass stealth ability (if they haven't already)

Edited March 10, 2016 by Hook47

[Helikopter]

More advanced Stealth technology = more advanced radars & sensors.

 

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[probad]

stealth will become standard for aircraft much like how armies eventually abandoned the colorful garbs of napoleonic warfare in favor of camo fatigues.

 

the future of aerial camouflage is likely to become more comprehensive and in depth. any driving factor for abandoning stealth would not be enemy detection capabilities but rather the cost of operating air assets, which is not likely to drop as much as the cost of stealth technology.

Edited March 10, 2016 by probad

[HiJack]

More advanced Stealth technology = more advanced radars & sensors.

 

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= Bigger antennas = Fixed installations = Easy targets

[Krippz]

The aircraft is still in development. Compare the YF-22 and the X-35 to what we have today.

[ФрогФут]

Been researching this abit and we're probably looking at a blocker and not the actual fan blades of the engine itself. The F/A-18E features a similar radar blocking fan.

That's the first stage of low pressure compressor.

[SkateZilla]

I can neither confirm nor deny that, but here's the F-18's radar blocking fan for comparison:

 

 

Arent pictures of the F-18Es intake prohibited by the Military?

 

Coulda sworn personel were not allowed to take pictures of the SHs intake, let alone post online.

Edited March 11, 2016 by SkateZilla