109, issues to address before leaving beta

[ShadowFrost]

Due to the 109 leaving beta sooner or later i'm curious what (if any at all) do you guys think needs working on the most. (I'm not going for flight model speeches here I'm asking about features or mechanics). As i'm sure we've all had our fun with flight model bickering, which seemed to take up a majority of everyone's time, I was wondering what you guys think is the best and worse aspects of the 109. Items that need to be addressed before or soon after the 109 is pushed out of beta.

 

I personally would like to see the damage model get some love, we have some wonderful systems in this aircraft that just can't be damaged or are damaged improperly. To explain my point even more its not so much the damage model that I have the problem with (what can be failed, destroyed, etc.) its how said items get destroyed or damaged that annoys me. The only two major items that I feel are not included and desperately needed is better engine damage and fluid leaks. Radiator, oil cooler, and fuel tank punctures is mainly what I am referencing. Having items like radiator leaks would highlight one of the serious weaknesses that 109's would have faced from a hailstorm of 50cal bullets. Also note-full that it is a 109k4 we fly, managing these systems (ie. shutting off a radiator(s)) would make the simulation that much more immersive. I've also noticed loosing the auto-governor in the 109 which should be very hard to loose unless at a high angle deflection shot or head on pass.

 

Graphical gore/damage would also be nice but IMO could come later, having a good solid damage base is crucial to making DCS a better WW2 simulator.

I'm also curious to the state of air to ground weapons of the Bf109k4, as i've noticed in the cockpit that such weapon pylons are available. Is there a reason to why these weapons have not been included yet? (ie. not enough data). Will gun-pods be included for the Bf109k4 or is there a design decision (or technical) reason behind them not being included in DCS so far.

 

Though I stated only about the Bf109k4 in the passages above, several of these issues are cross-module and effect many of them the in the similar or same way as they do to the Bf109k4.

 

Anyways I've thoroughly enjoyed the DCS Bf109K4 and hope that these issues will be dealt with in due time. I know many of them are not as simple as they may seem and may take a long (scary word) time to fix. Keep up the good work, I have faith in ye.

 

With Respect,

Justin

[Racoon]

Hi Justin,

Damage model isn't fine enough not only for Bf109. The whole damage model will be changed to present more realistic bullets' behavior.

 

Regarding lack of air-to-ground weapons: we are working on some improvements for WW2 planes and their weapons. For example unguided rockets for Dora are in production now. I think we could make gun-pods for BF109 as well.

[Kurfürst]

Excellent. Will there also be some variety in the bombloads - currently there is only SC 250 and SC 500. How about SD series bombs and AB 250 and 500 series cluster bomb containers? 21cm Wurfgranate rocket option for K-4?

 

They could be reusable for 190D-9 and Me 262 as well (not the 21 cm rockets though).

[5tuka]

I'm pretty sure Racoon meant the Wurfgranate 21 (there's even a switch for it in the cockpit) for the Dora. Don't know if Doras/109s were equiped with R4M rockets (Me-262 was).

 

Gunpods for the K4 would be nice but probably not popular as long as there's no bombers to shoot at.

[MAD-MM]

Stuka the late War d9 wost mostly equipped with R4M when the fly against bomber, in the german k4 manual they stated Wgr.21 switch removed for serial production.

there is also no picture where late war german fighters carry wgr.21, most likely only used on the stormfighters a7/8.

but in addiction is nice to have.

The probpitch is still fragile, nearly every hit destroy the probpitch.

[Nerd1000]

Excellent. Will there also be some variety in the bombloads - currently there is only SC 250 and SC 500. How about SD series bombs and AB 250 and 500 series cluster bomb containers? 21cm Wurfgranate rocket option for K-4?

 

They could be reusable for 190D-9 and Me 262 as well (not the 21 cm rockets though).

I remember the AB series cluster bombs from Microsoft CFS3. Could never get them to work well (though I was just 12 at the time, and the 109G's FM in that game left a lot to be desired). What kind of bomblets did it carry?

[ShadowFrost]

Hi Justin,

Damage model isn't fine enough not only for Bf109. The whole damage model will be changed to present more realistic bullets' behavior.

 

Regarding lack of air-to-ground weapons: we are working on some improvements for WW2 planes and their weapons. For example unguided rockets for Dora are in production now. I think we could make gun-pods for BF109 as well.

 

I was hinting towards that with "the problems being cross-module" just I wanted to keep it 109 focused and I do understand it's not as easy as it may seem. You guys have gotten the flight models and dog-fighting physics down really well (probably one of the hardest aspects to code) so I imagine it won't be to much trouble but will likely take a large portion of time. Hopefully once it's done it will be well done and one of the best.

[Racoon]

You're right. There is no problem to make damage model of any complexity level. Especially as we have the guy who did it for CoD ))

Time and PC performance - the only things we should think of.

[WinterH]

I would echo the desire for AB series cluster bombs for German birds. Ground attack portion us a bit weak for Luftwaffe planes currently. Sure there is the big half ton bomb, but it is a one hit (or miss...) wonder. And neither 13mm nor cannons seem to do particularly good at strafing. These bombs would at least make attacks on convoys, troop concentrations and parked aircraft more interesting.

 

Mustang with it's 8 powerful HVARs and two bombs gives even Sturmovik a run for it's money as far as attack options go, and is very fun. Even it's guns, while MG caliber, are long ranged and high velocity, so with some practice works on light armor.

 

Cluster bombs would give some unique options to German birds too :).

[Kurfürst]

I remember the AB series cluster bombs from Microsoft CFS3. Could never get them to work well (though I was just 12 at the time, and the 109G's FM in that game left a lot to be desired). What kind of bomblets did it carry?

 

There were a great variaty of bomb load configurations with different size and number of small bomblets in the AB "mother bomb" container, but IMHO we should have the ones that are most iconic and cover pretty much every use possible here - the one with the SD 2 "butterfly bombs" for anti personall/soft skin work and the one with the SD 4 HL shaped charged anti armor bomblets.

 

In any case the bombs are generic and could be used for all Luftwaffe planes (Me 262/109 and Fw 190, also for any Luftwaffe bomber if they are coming) so its a model it once, use it thrice development.

[NineLine]

I'm pretty sure Racoon meant the Wurfgranate 21 (there's even a switch for it in the cockpit) for the Dora. Don't know if Doras/109s were equiped with R4M rockets (Me-262 was).

 

Gunpods for the K4 would be nice but probably not popular as long as there's no bombers to shoot at.

 

The R4M model is done and in DCS already, its just not set up as a weapon yet. I believe its been shown it was able to be used on the Dora and K4 at some point, but the truth is that it just wasnt utilized much in WWII at all due to supply issues and where the war was going for Germany later on.

[NineLine]

There were a great variaty of bomb load configurations with different size and number of small bomblets in the AB "mother bomb" container, but IMHO we should have the ones that are most iconic and cover pretty much every use possible here - the one with the SD 2 "butterfly bombs" for anti personall/soft skin work and the one with the SD 4 HL shaped charged anti armor bomblets.

 

In any case the bombs are generic and could be used for all Luftwaffe planes (Me 262/109 and Fw 190, also for any Luftwaffe bomber if they are coming) so its a model it once, use it thrice development.

 

I have feature requested a number of these a while back... so lets hope they show up. Include gun pods in that too.

[Vincent90]

Hi Justin,

Damage model isn't fine enough not only for Bf109. The whole damage model will be changed to present more realistic bullets' behavior.

Hey Racoon,

 

Does this also mean a more realistic approach to damage vs AI aircraft?

 

Thank you for your great participation in the forums by the way, it's great to see such an active involvement by ED.

[QuiGon]

[...]Graphical gore/damage would also be nice but IMO could come later,[...]

 

Indeed, it would improve immersion for sure :D

 

[NineLine]

Indeed, it would improve immersion for sure :D

 

...

 

I am more eager for fuel and oil leaks (meaningful ones) than pilot fluid leaks of any kind :)

[Racoon]

Hey Racoon,

 

Does this also mean a more realistic approach to damage vs AI aircraft?

 

Sure thing!

 

Indeed, it would improve immersion for sure :D

Try Oculus Rift :smilewink:

[ShadowFrost]

I am more eager for fuel and oil leaks (meaningful ones) than pilot fluid leaks of any kind :)

 

I think aircraft leaks are more important (and probably rightfully so considering how many bullets hit the plane instead of the pilot) but I'll gladly take all of the above someday when they are ready. Along with a better damage model hopefully we'll get more audio cues to how far we can stress our aircraft in a damaged state.

[ShadowFrost]

I forget when (or where) I saw it but with DCS 1.5 and 2.0 we were hopefully going to get better explosions and damage from bombs. Hopefully area affect will be better after these changes and will allow for some German tactics to be used in heavy bomber formations (or currently C130s). I remember reading about the Germans dropping timed fused bombs into bomber formation to try and break them up. Not sure if this would ever be effective in DCS but hopefully bomb will one day no longer be a hit or miss one target wonder.

[IIIJG52_Otto_]

And what about FUG 16 ZY LORENZ radio ILS-ADF device ??

 

 

 

It is modeled but only the marker beacon light is working. ..am i right??

[Sporg]

And what about FUG 16 ZY LORENZ radio ILS-ADF device ??

 

 

It is modeled but only the marker beacon light is working. ..am i right??

I think we need to get Normandy map first.

 

I don't think there's many Lorenz transmitters on modern airfields. :)

[QuiGon]

I think we need to get Normandy map first.

 

I don't think there's many Lorenz transmitters on modern airfields. :)

 

I think radio beacons should also be available as placeable objects in the mission editor. Has anyone of the devs talked about implementing such a feature yet?

Edited April 13, 2016 by QuiGon

[Kurfürst]

And what about FUG 16 ZY LORENZ radio ILS-ADF device ??

 

I don't think there's many Lorenz transmitters on modern airfields. :)

 

In Luftwaffe fighters the reason of standardizing the FuG 16ZY (the Y designating that is has the Y-Verfahren device as well) was not as much providing Lorenz transmitters for airfields but as a practical operational guidance in the West (in the East it wasnt used)

 

They used it to guide fighter formations on Allied bomber streams for easy and accurate interception - usually only the flight or combat group leader turned on the "Y-Verfahren" or Y-Guidance in his fighter, and he was "guided", along with the whole group of fighters, without having the need to manually navigate to a constantly moving target.

 

It was in essence a modified use of the previous pathfinder systems (i.e. X, Y Gereat or Kninckebein) used on Luftwaffe bombers most famously in the Battle of Britain for night bombing and as a navigational aid.

 

It was a very integral part of Reichsverteidung, so it needs to be working if we want historical bomber intercept missions...

 

I have feature requested a number of these a while back... so lets hope they show up. Include gun pods in that too.

 

Thanks for the heads up, lets hope so... its not like we would like the module to have an A-10 level of external loads. :thumbup:

[Sporg]

I think radio beacons should also be placeable objects in the mission editor. Has anyone of the devs talked about implementing such a feature yet?

That's actually a good idea.

[Sporg]

In Luftwaffe fighters the reason of standardizing the FuG 16ZY (the Y designating that is has the Y-Verfahren device as well) was not as much providing Lorenz transmitters for airfields but as a practical operational guidance in the West (in the East it wasnt used)

 

They used it to guide fighter formations on Allied bomber streams for easy and accurate interception - usually only the flight or combat group leader turned on the "Y-Verfahren" or Y-Guidance in his fighter, and he was "guided", along with the whole group of fighters, without having the need to manually navigate to a constantly moving target.

 

It was in essence a modified use of the previous pathfinder systems (i.e. X, Y Gereat or Kninckebein) used on Luftwaffe bombers most famously in the Battle of Britain for night bombing and as a navigational aid.

 

It was a very integral part of Reichsverteidung, so it needs to be working if we want historical bomber intercept missions...

I understand, and it sounds good when implemented.

 

My comment was more based on the fact that until now we only have a modern Caucasus and Nevada map.

 

Until we have the 1944 Normandy map, I guess there's not much idea in implementing the WW II guidance systems yet?

[Racoon]

And what about FUG 16 ZY LORENZ radio ILS-ADF device ??

It is modeled but only the marker beacon light is working. ..am i right??

 

As I can see the device works fine in new Bf109 landing tutorial mission.