72"

[BuzzU]

Not your fault. I've just come back to flight sims from auto racing and wasn't aware of the racing series.

[M1Combat]

Here's one... Skip to 1:59:00 for a good race :)

 

[M1Combat]

And another track... A somewhat more difficult one...

 

[BuzzU]

LOL..race around the oil rigs. :)

[DoomEngine]

And another track... A somewhat more difficult one...

 

 

Nice paint! :thumbup:

[M1Combat]

It is but that's not me :)... unless you watched more than the suggested race in the first link and saw me racing in that one :).... In which case you would have seen my Williams FW14B inspired Canon paint :).

 

This one...

 

[DoomEngine]

:shocking:WHOA!

 

watched the other bit- fine work man! :thumbup:

Edited May 10, 2017 by DoomEngine

[Echo38]

I know that it would be appreciated if I disclosed my secrets but I put a LOT of time and effort into obtaining them and will not do that.

 

That's disappointing to hear. While I acknowledge that you aren't technically under obligation to do any differently, the fact is that you are placing your ego over the good of the community.

 

When I was topping the leaderboards in Rise of Flight, I offered gratis advanced aerial combat training to anyone who was interested in maximizing their potential. I didn't hold anything back, because flight sims are such a niche genre that they need all the help they can get, in every way. (At least one student eventually surpassed me in dogfighting ability; I wouldn't have given any less if I'd known beforehand.)

 

Hardcore flight simmers should freely share their knowledge with other users, from basic training to the top-level competitive stuff. The community as a whole benefits from this. It is, of course, your right to play "the prisoner's dilemma," but that's that much less respect from me & my kind, and you may lose out, too, in the long run. FWIW

Edited May 10, 2017 by Echo38

[M1Combat]

Hmmm... I think it's not about EGO. I almost never do combat flight in the thing... I'm not that good at it. I'm not holding any advantage over anyone except on a race track where I actually fly and most of the racers know the basics of it anyway and we all had different little things that we would do. I wasn't the fastest guy. All I would be doing is giving the people in this specific thread and those who happen to maybe hear about it second hand an advantage over those that don't get that chance. The ways to make the Mustang fast aren't difficult to figure out. Maybe it's somewhat difficult to arrive at exactly the right answers, but the quest for the answers is easy enough to start, and once you figure out where to look you'll find them pretty quickly... Compared to something like setting up a sim race car it's quite simple. You just have to play with stuff and see exactly what it does. Have a racer's mind set. Try everything. It's that simple. The only problem is that without timed laps and precise flying lap after lap it's hard to pinpoint what makes what difference.

 

I suppose level flight is certainly usable to find the answers as well... It's just not where I learned.

 

To be honest... When I try to eke every last MPH out of the Mustang in combat I just end up blowing up the engine anyway :). I blew up LOTS of them on the race track ;).

 

 

 

Also...

 

For the record... I share lots with people with regard to combat or even flying technique used while racing. I've taught at least a few people how to use the KA-50 and the Mirage. I'm generally a really helpful guy :).

 

You say maybe I just won't give specifics because of EGO... but I'm here letting people know that there is energy being left on the table. With all the planes I think, but I never raced the 190 or the 109 and the Spitfire of course wasn't out yet when we raced, so I don't know about that one. I'd assume it could be made to go faster than just putting all the knobs and levers to the generally accepted "This Goes Fastest Because Someone Said So" spots too.

 

We all like to learn about these planes. Go learn :). I thought I was doing people a favor by letting people know that there's more in it. I see it more like if someone tells me I can roll over the top at just the right time in a scissors and end up behind my enemy. They can't tell me exactly when. I need to go learn that for myself. They can tell me the basics of what I'm looking for... but they can't fly the plane for me. I feel like that's what I've done here.

[BuzzU]

To be honest I don't find top speed that important in a fight. I'm not going to run from a 109 and he sure won't run from me.

 

Acceleration and climb speed is more important and the 109 has the edge there. We have to be smarter in a P-51 to beat a 109. Not always doable either.

 

All we can do is do our best and if we fail get ready to bail out and try another day.

[OnlyforDCS]

If the 109 gets on your tail you should run. You can't outturn it. You can't outclimb it. So running is the only way to shake him off. Running is not cowardice. Better to run than to get shot down. I've lured many overconfident enemies to their deaths by running towards a friendly base and friendly AA fire.

[BuzzU]

No, I won't run. The goal is to not let him on your tail.

 

I couldn't see running working anyway. The difference in top speed is only after quite awhile to get to top speed and it's not that much. Meanwhile, because the 109 accelerates so much faster he'll catch you before the P-51 can get to top speed.

[Pandacat]

What about rolling scissors? I saw many videos where people used scissors to shake of 109's. 51 theoretically should roll better at high speed.

[Solty]

Hmmm... I think it's not about EGO. I almost never do combat flight in the thing... I'm not that good at it. I'm not holding any advantage over anyone except on a race track where I actually fly and most of the racers know the basics of it anyway and we all had different little things that we would do. I wasn't the fastest guy. All I would be doing is giving the people in this specific thread and those who happen to maybe hear about it second hand an advantage over those that don't get that chance. The ways to make the Mustang fast aren't difficult to figure out. Maybe it's somewhat difficult to arrive at exactly the right answers, but the quest for the answers is easy enough to start, and once you figure out where to look you'll find them pretty quickly... Compared to something like setting up a sim race car it's quite simple. You just have to play with stuff and see exactly what it does. Have a racer's mind set. Try everything. It's that simple. The only problem is that without timed laps and precise flying lap after lap it's hard to pinpoint what makes what difference.

 

I suppose level flight is certainly usable to find the answers as well... It's just not where I learned.

 

To be honest... When I try to eke every last MPH out of the Mustang in combat I just end up blowing up the engine anyway :). I blew up LOTS of them on the race track ;).

 

 

 

Also...

 

For the record... I share lots with people with regard to combat or even flying technique used while racing. I've taught at least a few people how to use the KA-50 and the Mirage. I'm generally a really helpful guy :).

 

You say maybe I just won't give specifics because of EGO... but I'm here letting people know that there is energy being left on the table. With all the planes I think, but I never raced the 190 or the 109 and the Spitfire of course wasn't out yet when we raced, so I don't know about that one. I'd assume it could be made to go faster than just putting all the knobs and levers to the generally accepted "This Goes Fastest Because Someone Said So" spots too.

 

We all like to learn about these planes. Go learn :). I thought I was doing people a favor by letting people know that there's more in it. I see it more like if someone tells me I can roll over the top at just the right time in a scissors and end up behind my enemy. They can't tell me exactly when. I need to go learn that for myself. They can tell me the basics of what I'm looking for... but they can't fly the plane for me. I feel like that's what I've done here.

 

Planes are not magic. There are testing conditions to be met and hard data presented by the USAAF and North American. Airplane, depending on engine and design, fly differently at different altitudes. There is usually increase of speed the higher you go, except when your engine looses power due to lack of a supercharger, badly managed mixture etc.

 

Overall it is not a matter of opinion, the Mustang was flying 375mph at SL and now it is not. I hope YoYo addresses that sooner than later.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Solty

[M1Combat]

Well... I can get it to do 610-614Kph sustained in the conditions you mentioned before so...

 

610Kph is 379Mph.

 

I would say it's pretty close...

 

 

That was with WEP by the way... was your 591 with WEP? Now I'm wondering what I could get her to do without WEP...

Edited May 16, 2017 by M1Combat

[Echo38]

It occurs to me that there may be a bug with the way the speed is being calculated in the sim. If our P-51 isn't matching its RL example's "normal conditions" top SL speed in the sim, under the same conditions, but is able to reach (or exceed) that speed under different "special" conditions, then I would assume an error in the sim.

 

Another question arises: was the real P-51 likewise able to go faster than its actual tested speed, if operating under these mystery conditions (which the only simmers who know them won't volunteer), and the real pilots (like 99.999% of the simming community) simply didn't know about this trick, thus the RL test was lower than optimal speed? I doubt this, but it isn't impossible. See Lindbergh and the P-38 range for an example of a similar situation.

 

It's also questionable whether these mystery conditions would work in reality at all. Again, there could be an error in the simulation. We'll never know any of this, though, it looks like, since the key piece is missing. [stare @ M1Combat]

 

The more I think about this secret trick that only ~0.001% of the community knows, that causes our sim P-51 to be able to reach a speed that no one using solely historical methods can reach, the more I think that this is a bug exploit. Again, impossible to say without knowing what exactly it is, but the murkiness is hardly a vote of confidence.

Edited May 16, 2017 by Echo38

[Spudknocker]

Being around warbirds my whole life I would take a gander and say that DCS in its current form when it comes to WW2 airplanes is more of a "warbird" simulator with guns than a WW2 combat sim if that makes sense to anyone outside of my own mind haha. The performance that I see in DCS P-51D is the same as an antique P-51D Warbird flying today with modern fuels and self imposed/physical restrictions associated with a 21st century Merlin Engine.

 

That being said you can still easily reach 300+ MPH in level flight at say 10 angels by knowing how Manifold pressure and Prop pitch interact with each other. To get fast just like in a real mustang simply pull the RPM back to around 2600 to give the prop more bite on the air and increase throttle to give that prop, that's trying to move more air, more power and thus generate more thrust. Anyway that's my 2 cents.

[SeaW0lf]

Being around warbirds my whole life I would take a gander and say that DCS in its current form when it comes to WW2 airplanes is more of a "warbird" simulator with guns than a WW2 combat sim.

 

Exactly. There is a lot of ground to cover to merge "warbird" with "combat sim" in my opinion. At the moment I am more curious than anything.

[OnlyforDCS]

The performance that I see in DCS P-51D is the same as an antique P-51D Warbird flying today with modern fuels and self imposed/physical restrictions associated with a 21st century Merlin Engine.

 

 

This goes for all the planes in the game. This is how Eagle Dynamics works though. They simulate what they know and what they have access too. They have access to REAL warbirds, which are unfortunately very, very old and have to be kept in pristine flying condition. If that's not your cup of tea thats fine, but to me its just a testament of how good their simulations are.

[Solty]

This goes for all the planes in the game. This is how Eagle Dynamics works though. They simulate what they know and what they have access too. They have access to REAL warbirds, which are unfortunately very, very old and have to be kept in pristine flying condition. If that's not your cup of tea thats fine, but to me its just a testament of how good their simulations are.

No it is not. The old version P-51D, still 1.5 version, the plane was capable of what I said before.

61'' 3000rpm from YoYo himself, back in the day. So, there you go, the plane doesn't fly as it should and nothing you say can change that. The K4 is flying perfect compared to the real life data, so no, DCS is not moddeled after old planes, there must be a bug that prevents the plane from achieving its full potential, that especially affects 67'

 

 

There was a very similar issue happening to the Mustang in 2016!

Here is what YoYo said about it, when he fixed it!

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2696329&postcount=25

This issue was corrected. I have checked it and MIL/WEP is 361/375 mph.

 

The test must be perfromed at MSA conditions and be sure that the throttle is calibrated properly.

 

But the bug is back! And it makes the plane slower.

 

 

Well... I can get it to do 610-614Kph sustained in the conditions you mentioned before so...

 

610Kph is 379Mph.

 

I would say it's pretty close...

 

 

That was with WEP by the way... was your 591 with WEP? Now I'm wondering what I could get her to do without WEP...

 

At what altitude? With 67'hg that would be only possible just above 1500 ft or 500 m.

 

Also, what version? Maybe its different between 2.0 and 1.5?

Edited May 17, 2017 by Solty

[OnlyforDCS]

Capable of what? Please don't take my words out of context Solty. You have a tendency to do that, stop it it's rude.

 

You keep repeating that the plane is not flying as it should. Several people have already chimed in and said that the plane is capable of reaching the speeds mentioned at the conditions mentioned. So what gives? You are now claiming that it is a bug. One that used to be fixed, but is now back. Have you reported it? Have you PMed Yo-Yo?

Edited May 17, 2017 by OnlyforDCS

[David OC]

I'm still trying to get my head around just how accurate these aircraft really need to be here and how accurate were they back in the day when mass manufactured? Here it seems it needs to be within 1% 2% of known published stats, just so there's no advantage in 1 vs 1 multiplayer competition of aircraft that are of very different design.

 

Imagine for a second, back in the day jumping from one aircraft to another, I wonder if there were many times the pilot was surprised by the power by the same model aircraft, or do you think having this much horsepower in a relatively small aircraft you wouldn't notice 50 / 100 horsepower difference?

 

You also wouldn't notice until it was too late, when you need to use max throttle, and in that second your thinking, wow that's not as good as my last aircraft is it. I think this would of rarely happened IRL.

 

To me, unless there is a large advantage of power or in the design, it still very much comes down to who's on there game on that day 1 vs 1, think Federer vs Nadal.

 

Just like IRL, I bet there were many K-4s shot down by 65' p-51's and many 72' p-51s shot down by G-6's etc. One, because they perhaps were just very gifted with flying and the feel, two, perhaps they were just lucky and really on there game and in the groove that day and the other guy had no real chance.

[Solty]

I'm still trying to get my head around just how accurate these aircraft really need to be here and how accurate were they back in the day when mass manufactured? Here it seems it needs to be within 1% 2% of known published stats, just so there's no advantage in 1 vs 1 multiplayer competition of aircraft that are of very different design.

 

Imagine for a second, back in the day jumping from one aircraft to another, I wonder if there were many times the pilot was surprised by the power by the same model aircraft, or do you think having this much horsepower in a relatively small aircraft you wouldn't notice 50 / 100 horsepower difference?

 

You also wouldn't notice until it was too late, when you need to use max throttle, and in that second your thinking, wow that's not as good as my last aircraft is it. I think this would of rarely happened IRL.

 

To me, unless there is a large advantage of power or in the design, it still very much comes down to who's on there game on that day 1 vs 1, think Federer vs Nadal.

 

Just like IRL, I bet there were many K-4s shot down by 65' p-51's and many 72' p-51s shot down by G-6's etc. One, because they perhaps were just very gifted with flying and the feel, two, perhaps they were just lucky and really on there game and in the groove that day and the other guy had no real chance.

YoYo himself, as quoted above, has already said what is the standard that the P-51D should be achieving.

 

I checked again today and got the same data as the last time. The plane is slower than referential data.

 

This issue was corrected. I have checked it and MIL/WEP is 361/375 mph.

 

The test must be perfromed at MSA conditions and be sure that the throttle is calibrated properly.

Edited May 17, 2017 by Solty

[Echo38]

To get fast just like in a real mustang simply pull the RPM back to around 2600 to give the prop more bite on the air and increase throttle to give that prop, that's trying to move more air, more power and thus generate more thrust. Anyway that's my 2 cents.

 

That isn't supposed to work. See my post, and the one by Yo-Yo immediately following mine, in this thread: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1898184&highlight=rpm#post1898184

 

So, if that works in the sim, it'd be a bug, because Yo-Yo said it shouldn't.

 

(It took me over half an hour to find that post again, so here are some keywords for next time this question rises: RPM pitch thrust power speed )

 

Several people have already chimed in and said that the plane is capable of reaching the speeds mentioned at the conditions mentioned.

 

M1Combat did, but only by using a secret trick. This trick is something other than the historical method and, in the absence of further information, and in light of the secrecy surrounding this magic trick, I can only assume that this is a bug exploit and not something that would work IRL.

 

If you're using a non-historical method and getting a result faster than the result gained by the historical method, then it's most likely a bug. Especially likely if the former result is not only faster than the latter result in the sim, but also faster than the actual historical figure! Both are true in this case, making it especially likely that this is a bug exploit; the only alternative would be that M1Combat has discovered an amazing method that would have worked IRL, but none of the real test pilots learned it.

 

Meanwhile, according to those who have performed tests using the historical method, the latter does not yield the expected figure.

Edited May 17, 2017 by Echo38

[Talisman_VR]

Well... I can get it to do 610-614Kph sustained in the conditions you mentioned before so...

 

610Kph is 379Mph.

 

I would say it's pretty close...

 

 

That was with WEP by the way... was your 591 with WEP? Now I'm wondering what I could get her to do without WEP...

 

Yes, I used to be able to get these speeds when I flew the last 3 races of the last DCS Mustang racing series a couple of years back, but lately a quick test showed me that I can't get the same sort of speed anymore for some strange reason. However, it is important to note that the speeds stated above need manual control of radiators and extremely, repeat extremely, careful flying; the sort of flying that does not lend itself at all well to combat because to get these speeds in racing means flying on the extreme edge and the engine can blow in a heartbeat. Just lifting the nose a fraction for a second too long and a slight reduction in airspeed and resultant cooling effect can mean a lost engine very, very easily. Not only that, although these speeds can be sustained for a while, you need to take the word 'sustained' with a pinch of salt because the engine will not last indefinitely at the settings required for such speed and race winners have had engines blow just before the finish line but stayed in the air long enough to carry enough speed to win by a whisker; it is in fact a calculated risk to go for broke in the last seconds of a race to secure a win knowing that the engine will likely be lost (this is not real world realistic behaviour). I would suggest that we don't get side tracked by specialist racing settings, but concentrate on the real world speed tests for the DCS competitive combat environment and leave the racing settings and scenarios to one side.

 

P.S. You can't out run the bullets/cannons being fired at you from behind, so as soon as you manoeuvre to avoid them you won't be at optimum speed anyway.

 

Happy landings,