F-22 Raptor "sucks"

[nscode]

No, it wasn't. Modded NEVA-M.

[nscode]

And in what manner are they supposed to fight and perform in then? O.o

 

They are supposed to try flying with labels off :megalol:

[Groove]

The F117 was shot down because a french officer which was in the NATO planning staff betrayed the coalition ( he was a spy ) and told the yugos the flight plan so they could setup a triangle of radars and they directed a fighter on the f-117 which could visual identify the f-117 and so he could easily shoot it down.

 

No mysterious radars or lucky shot, if you know where to look and how, you can shoot down even the almighty B-2 in my opinion.

[SVK_Fox]

:)

 

Right, and they're still 10-20 years behind. They shot down one F-117 which they KNEW was going to be there, using optical tracking. The pilot didn't see the launch and didn't maneuver to evade. And? ;)

 

I am not sure that S400 is system that is 20 years behind, but maybe you know more than mee :). And if is somebody shooted down by opt. and didnt maneuver, it is normal, or you want set up war on ideal situation?

If pilot didnt see launch it is his problem, and his plane was designed also for this situation (nozzles).

 

Everybody have to know that If you have got backround as US (AWACS, new systems of sight, missiles and e.g nuclear potencial) e.g China, India....

nobody will win war against them. US will never try to use their F-22 against China, India,..... F-22 is only plane, and it is possible to shoot it down.

And I read here that F-15 was never shooted down by enemy plane. Yes thats true, but when russian came to US and simulated fight agains Su-27 and Su-27UB, pilots in F-15 was shooted down without discussion.

And if Su-27 is 20 years behind and is able to kill F-15, it is time to make things better in US industry :doh:

[Pilotasso]

Girlies like my weasel. :D

 

So put it back into the burrow. Its not place for that here. :D

[Pilotasso]

No, it wasn't. Modded NEVA-M.

 

Could you elaborate more about that system? can it guide any equipent, or just present a blip on a screen?

[Pilotasso]

The F117 was shot down because a french officer which was in the NATO planning staff betrayed the coalition ( he was a spy ) and told the yugos the flight plan so they could setup a triangle of radars and they directed a fighter on the f-117 which could visual identify the f-117 and so he could easily shoot it down.

 

No mysterious radars or lucky shot, if you know where to look and how, you can shoot down even the almighty B-2 in my opinion.

 

Never heard of that one before. My books mentioned it was a manualy guided SA-3 with terminal radar homing. Because they know the F-117 was going to pass there as it did repeatedly at the same time of the night.

[Groove]

Yes thats true, but when russian came to US and simulated fight agains Su-27 and Su-27UB, pilots in F-15 was shooted down without discussion.

 

any more infos on this topic ?

[SVK_Fox]

There were some rumors that this F117 was tracked by the early version of the Vera passive radar system used to be made in Czechoslovakia, right?

Now these passive radar systems are part of NATO so they blocked sales to China etc..

 

Yes it there were some rumots and also that they listened averything from AWACS and so. I dont know what is true only acters know. Media never show you truth. Thats true that US got our radars because I remmember when they were here and want know everything about this technology and they paid a lot of $$$$ for it. It was funny to see that guys how they look at our engineers :cry: what they are able to construct in TESLA. And they got luck because iron curtain was down and it was time when all secrets was served to our new partners.

 

If China got passive radar? - I dont know and doesnt matter, China is "untouchable". As we said, If they want to defead somebody they grab their caps and will beat us with them :D

[Groove]

shooting one f-22 down means shooting down hardware for over 350.000.000 $ ? thats crazy !

[nscode]

Could you elaborate more about that system? can it guide any equipent, or just present a blip on a screen?

 

If it's what i've seen on TV, the manual guidance system is a thingy that you go outside with, hold in your hand and point it (visualy) at the thing you want to track. The thingy is conected to other systems so the tracking radar points where you point the thingy. The reason you need this is that search radar picks up a stealth aircraft when it's very near you. If it's flying towards you, it will soon be straight above you, where it can't be picked up by search radar. Than you grab your thingy (not your weasle... the thingy :D), find the target, the tracking people get it, launch people do their stuff, and... if u'r luckey and did it all right, u've got your self a nice toasted F-117.

I'm not sure that this is the exact way that engagmant in question went, nor that the thingy is for SA-3, but we did have the thingy :)

The time frame u've got for this is very short.. ~30 sec max, 'cause soon it will be too far away again. The actual downing lasted 18 sec.

[GGTharos]

I am not sure that S400 is system that is 20 years behind, but maybe you know more than mee :).

 

The S400 is a fairly new development ... Russia was always good with their SAM systems, but even exiting the Cold War, I think those were about the only systems that were competitive. Aircraft were -not-.

 

And if is somebody shooted down by opt. and didnt maneuver, it is normal, or you want set up war on ideal situation?

If pilot didnt see launch it is his problem, and his plane was designed also for this situation (nozzles).

 

What are you talking about? No, no plane is designed to deal with something you or the aircraft's sensors failed to see. The shots were taken a relatively close range, and things happened very fast. It wasn't expected at all, period.

 

Everybody have to know that If you have got backround as US (AWACS, new systems of sight, missiles and e.g nuclear potencial) e.g China, India....

nobody will win war against them. US will never try to use their F-22 against China, India,..... F-22 is only plane, and it is possible to shoot it down.

And I read here that F-15 was never shooted down by enemy plane. Yes thats true, but when russian came to US and simulated fight agains Su-27 and Su-27UB, pilots in F-15 was shooted down without discussion.

And if Su-27 is 20 years behind and is able to kill F-15, it is time to make things better in US industry :doh:

 

 

You mean the 'fight' where a flanker hopped on an F-15's tail and stayed there without there being a specific arrangement for a fight (in fact it was -specifically- prohibited) and the F-15 pilot didn't even know that the other guy was up to something he wasn't supposed to be up to?

 

There was never a 'simulated fight' between Russia and US fighters, insofar as I can recall.

[nscode]

What are you talking about? No, no plane is designed to deal with something you or the aircraft's sensors failed to see. The shots were taken a relatively close range, and things happened very fast. It wasn't expected at all, period.

 

He was talking about the reduced IR sig

[bflagg]

I heard the exact same thing in various forums...

One retired pilot reported it as told to him by current active duty...

 

--The F15 pilot was WTF?--

[bflagg]

Everybody have to know that If you have got backround as US (AWACS, new systems of sight, missiles and e.g nuclear potencial) e.g China, India....nobody will win war against them. US will never try to use their F-22 against China, India,..... F-22 is only plane, and it is possible to shoot it down.

 

You're kidding right?

It was designed to kill ANYTHING in the air. Who gives a crap if it's china, india whatever....

 

If it's in the air and it's the enemy... it will be engaged by a multitude of weapons systems and yes..the 22 will be there.

 

Nothing is invunerable...so anything can be shot down...but it will be

harder for the enemy to take down a f22..

[rattler]

stealth

 

ef-2000 has just as much stealth ability as f-22. Go look at the site I posted in my last reply both A/C built with same materials so logic would say that both would have at least equal stealth capabilities. F-22 larger A/C than ef-2000 (typhoon) so more surface area. If they can now find the f117 they will be able to find both Typhoon and Raptor eventually once they get to now them in the air. This is what happened to the f-117 now they know what to look for.

[Pilotasso]

Fox I double dare ya to tell me how you do it to shootdown the F-22.

 

US will use the F-22 against any adversary potent enough to force the use of the Raptor.

[Pilotasso]

ef-2000 has just as much stealth ability as f-22. Go look at the site I posted in my last reply both A/C built with same materials so logic would say that both would have at least equal stealth capabilities. F-22 larger A/C than ef-2000 (typhoon) so more surface area. If they can now find the f117 they will be able to find both Typhoon and Raptor eventually once they get to now them in the air. This is what happened to the f-117 now they know what to look for.

 

No true. They may have been built with the same materials but half of the equation lies on HOW you built them.

 

The F-22 is more capable than the Eurofighter PERIOD. Not only to stealth but on most of other systems as well. Having said that no Raptor pilot would mock the Eurofighter. Its a beast. Im glad its European and no one will mess with us the same way we arent willing to do anything at all internationaly :D

[GGTharos]

ef-2000 has just as much stealth ability as f-22. Go look at the site I posted in my last reply both A/C built with same materials so logic would say that both would have at least equal stealth capabilities. F-22 larger A/C than ef-2000 (typhoon) so more surface area. If they can now find the f117 they will be able to find both Typhoon and Raptor eventually once they get to now them in the air. This is what happened to the f-117 now they know what to look for.

Experience dictates that just because things seem logical to you, does not mean they actually work this way.

 

The F-117 was found BECAUSE THEY KNEW WHERE TO LOOK FOR IT from the start. It was -not- found nilly-willy.

 

It was then engaged -not- with radar guidance, but with optical guidance. You're not going to have the luxury of repeating this trick too many times. Given the bomb drop capabilities right now, an F-22 can bring down iron on your head from farther than your SAM can reach it, let alone your radar.

[tflash]

The S400 is a fairly new development ... Russia was always good with their SAM systems, but even exiting the Cold War, I think those were about the only systems that were competitive. Aircraft were -not-.

 

Come on, GG, this is not serious. When do you see the end of the cold war? In our history dept., we would see this in 1989-1990.

 

Can you explain me the Su-27 was then not competitive with the Eagle? Stating this on a Lockon forum is beyond credibility.

 

In my view, Russian fighters were perfectly competitive at that moment. Most of the stuff that is now making the difference was intruduced late in the nineties, and after 2000.

 

And they are competitive to this day. Russia is both capable of up-to-date engine design and manufacturing, state-of-the-art aerodynamics and matches western radar technology, except for some LPI techniques the Europeans also do not have.

 

The US is far more advanced on airborne stealth than its European and Russian rivals, but there are a lot of military technologies where there exists no such lead.

 

Sometimes with dire consequences: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/752155.html

[GGTharos]

Come on, GG, this is not serious. When do you see the end of the cold war? In our history dept., we would see this in 1989-1990.

 

Can you explain me the Su-27 was then not competitive with the Eagle? Stating this on a Lockon forum is beyond credibility.

 

In my view, Russian fighters were perfectly competitive at that moment. Most of the stuff that is now making the difference was intruduced late in the nineties, and after 2000.

 

You're saying that a 1990's flanker was a match ofr a 1990's F-15C? Heh. Now THAT is beyond credibility. ;)

The Flanker hasn't received any upgrades to help it along in this case, where the Eagle had already gone through several upgrades. Technologically, the eagle was -quite- on top.

 

And they are competitive to this day. Russia is both capable of up-to-date engine design and manufacturing, state-of-the-art aerodynamics and matches western radar technology, except for some LPI techniques the Europeans also do not have.

 

Capable? Okay. But it doesn't have any. See the difference? If there was a fight -today- those early 1980's flankers would be getting dropped out of the sky like flies.

 

The US is far more advanced on airborne stealth than its European and Russian rivals, but there are a lot of military technologies where there exists no such lead.

 

Sometimes with dire consequences: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/752155.html

 

I think you'll find that ground warfare technology stays typically well enough matched, compared to actual technologically-heavy warmachines such as naval warships, aircraft, and generally anything else that is dependant on electronics. Lets compare apples to apples, shall we?

[aimmaverick]

ef-2000 has just as much stealth ability as f-22. Go look at the site I posted in my last reply both A/C built with same materials so logic would say that both would have at least equal stealth capabilities. F-22 larger A/C than ef-2000 (typhoon) so more surface area. If they can now find the f117 they will be able to find both Typhoon and Raptor eventually once they get to now them in the air. This is what happened to the f-117 now they know what to look for.

 

OMG rattler you dont have a clue about these two jets do you? EF is nowhere near F-22 and particulary not in RCS. EF has just reduced RCS and is not considered a stealth plane. Add to this weapons and it has the very visible radar signature. EF has traditional shape, while F-22 has not, kinda boxy looking as you san see. If we are to compare these 2 jets, this is the area where Raptor is the most superior to the Typhoon. Period. I say again Eurofigher is NOT a stealth plane.

[nscode]

Capable? Okay. But it doesn't have any. See the difference? If there was a fight -today- those early 1980's flankers would be getting dropped out of the sky like flies.

 

If there was any chance of such a fight, those flankers wouldn't still be those flankers :)

 

And if the country wasn't sabotaged at that moment, the 1990 flankers wouldn't have still been 1980 flankers either.

 

He's talking about competitive aircraft design. You are talking about competitive airforce.

[tflash]

You're saying that a 1990's flanker was a match ofr a 1990's F-15C? Heh. Now THAT is beyond credibility. ;)

 

This should be where Alfa comes in; since I always thought that that is what we are flying: An Su-27P against and F-15C with amraam and there is no Lockon statistics that proves the Eagle to be "clearly on top"? ;)

 

What we think that is lacking in the sim, like IFF and some useful MPCD animation, wouldn't shift the balance so dramatically that Lockon would become unplayable.

 

Besides, the MSIP program offering full integration of all this systems only finalized in the late nineties, not the early.

[Dudikoff]

You're saying that a 1990's flanker was a match ofr a 1990's F-15C? Heh. Now THAT is beyond credibility. ;)

The Flanker hasn't received any upgrades to help it along in this case, where the Eagle had already gone through several upgrades. Technologically, the eagle was -quite- on top.

 

I think that's not fair. At the end of Cold War, the upgraded versions of Russian fighters were developed (MiG-29M, Su-27M, Jak-41) but the country collapsed as they were in testing. If you move a bit earlier, MiG-29A could hold it's own against an F-16 (HMD, better short range missiles, mid-range missiles which the F-16 did not carry; same goes with Flanker and Eagle). MiG-31 is a story in it's own.

 

SAMs were also more advanced than Western systems (Hawk was the pinnacle of US SAMs before Patriot, right?) and Harpoons/Tomahawks ASMs should not even be compared with such advanced ASM systems as SS-N-19, for instance.

 

Saying that they were 15 years behind is.. Well.