F-22 Raptor "sucks"

[Gaizokubanou]

For those of you that still want to talk politics in this thread, I ask you to please refrain so that this thread can continue as a discussion of the F-22, its mission, capabilities, and comparative effectiveness against other aircraft of similar mission design. Please leave the politics of any country out of it, as the rules of this forum are specific about this.

 

Thanks!

 

Even without the political concerns (but since when did the military mobilize without a political reason?), dealing with limited resources is valid concern for the military. Nobody have infinite budget, thus the cost of weapons should be taken into account.

 

Unless you consider cost-efficiency concerns as a political one...

[hitman]

I would very much disagree - every congressman and senator is very keen on getting the contract for such a large and expensive project as F-22 is, for their region. With the money from the project, they open new jobs or sustain the old ones for a number of years. That's how they get the money into their communities and in return, they get re-elected.

 

This was very well sumarized in BBC's ''What do we fight for'' documentary.

 

But thats not what I said. The politicians are not getting their hands dirty by "actually working" on the plane. :doh:

[suntrace1]

Talking about military without involving politics is like talking about cars without mentioning how much petrol they consume. Politics is the main driving gear behind development of military weapons and they do dictate which one will be developed. Military might is usually the main means of projecting country's political power on the world's arena. I think we can all understand that, without being political.

 

When we talk about the implications of new weapons and what they are capable of, we really are talking about, if you will, future development of the world politics. Remember how had the invention of an A-bomb influenced the world politics after WW2? It's the same thing here - in almost every article listed here, you can read, how ‘’F-22 is so much more then just a new fighter...’’

 

Most of participants of this forum are well aware of dangers from the past experiences that go waaaaaaay back to the Ubi forum. Most of the members can and do distance themselves from touchy subjects and can discuss politely, how will other countries counter the F-22. So, don’t worry, no one is after you or anyone here. We are just talking....

 

 

I do disagree with some of you - F-22 being not being able to be launcehd from an aircaft carrier is a big minus. Carriers have always been the one force, you could rapidly deploy anywhere in the world. They don't need to be prepared in advance, like air bases do, to be combat operational. They also monitor the turbulent regions 24/7 and F-22 with it's stealth would be ideal for such role.

 

I wonder how much will JSF fill this gap, although with just one engine, it's a little bit of a let down.

 

 

edit: ups hitman, feck, language barrier, my mustache

[Alfa]

new signature, hope this one is ok with moderator. New signature upload please Mr. Moderator.

 

Seems we got it working now rattler ;) .

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[Alfa]

Discussing military without politics is... umm...

 

....necessary on this forum :) .

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[rattler]

Military(Politics) another thread maybe?

 

Guess everything is back to some normal discussions and that's good. Now to stir the pot a little since some want the military(politics) to continue a bit. I think I read an article that indicated that not all of the USAF Brass are on board with the number of F-22's needed, cost could be used more effectively in other areas. Is there a rift in the USAF Brass (politics)?

[GGTharos]

There's always a rift somewhere. The fighter mafia probably still thinks the F-16 would've done the Raptor's job well enough ;)

[Gripes]

 

...edit: ups hitman, feck, language barrier, my mustache

 

LOL, you guys crack me up.

 

I don`t mind reading about all these different views and opinions, as long

as the discussion is civil and it doesn`t take a de-tour from the subject too far... It`s entertaining and educational (in a way:doh: )... at least for

me.

[tflash]

Just an idea, but would the F-22 not be more effective with a TWS-enabled SAHR missile?

 

- it can fire a missile without even been detected yet by the enemies fighter radar

- in TWS, the bandit does not get a launch warning

 

- when the Amraam missile's seeker locks, however, you get a warning (agreed a little late, but maybe just enough to to a mighty last-minute Mig29OVT manoever)

 

- suppose now the missile is not an amraam but a Sparrow-like SAHR missile.

 

===> then you would get NO warning whatsoever?

[GGTharos]

You will get about as much warning as an AMRAAM ... the missile's INS is not perfect, and it needs to account for maneuvers between sweeps - so you need to have the target within the 'sensor basket' to be sure your missile locks onto it.

 

The amount of warning you get is -probably- about half that you normally get from an AMRAAM in LOMAC ... based entirely on a guess from myself.

 

It is entirely possible that depending on the parent radar's scan rate, you may get different amount of warning (slower scan rate, bigger basket ... faster scan rate, smaller basket, you can lock on successfuly much closer)

 

A 29OVT provides precicely zero help in dodging a missile - all these thrust vectoring technologies are there to help you dogfighting better. Missiles dogfight you at 1000kts, not 200 ;) At that point thrust vectoring doesn't do quite so much for you.

[Rhen]

All I have to say is AIM-120D. With its two-way data link, the aircraft will update the bandits position and send the info to the missile. The missile will send the aircraft a loss of acquisition signal should it lose the bandit during terminal flight. This will allow frugal use of missiles and minimal warning to the bandit.

 

Excellent maneuverability by the bandit is only an asset to a last ditch maneuver by the bandit to out BFM the missile. Trying to see an air-to-air missile is much more difficult than trying to see a SAM.

 

@suntrace1: When it comes to weapons development, TACTICAL weapons, on the whole do not DIRECTLY influence politics. I totally agree with you that STRATEGIC weapons influence politics and the future course of the nation having these strategic weapons.

 

With regards to tactical weaponry, like the F-22, it only affects politics when taken as a whole, with all other tactical weapons. When a military can use these weapons effectively and efficiently to obtain an objective of national interest, then it becomes easier to use a military solution in the future, to attain another national objective.

[coldcrew]

25 pages and I think it boils down to "my epeen is bigger than yours" (with 25 pages of pros and cons of the epeen size, speed and age.

[suntrace1]

25 pages and I think it boils down to "my epeen is bigger than yours" (with 25 pages of pros and cons of the epeen size, speed and age.

 

You read 25 pages to come to THAT conclusion?! O man, what a waste of time - anyone could told you that, it's the only game we play around here.

 

And just so we all understand one thing - mine's the biggest :smoke:

[Pilotasso]

Heres something I found:

http://semperapollo.com/Media/Video/Aviation/AC2006/F-22A_AC06.mpg

http://semperapollo.com/Quickstart/VideoLib/Langley2006/Raptor.mpg

 

Its similar to one posted here (same airshow I beleive) but with better closups and overall quality.

 

Tones more at:

http://semperapollo.com/

[tflash]

Of all things mentioned, I believe supercruise is one of the most important aspects. Predators are defined by the area that they dominate by their presence. This has all to do with their reach.

 

The raptor will be able to cover a much, much wider range of space, both in the horizontal and vertical plane, for the same amount of fuel.

 

I think indeed when you would visualize this that you really would see the generations from Phantom over Eagle to Raptor.

 

Having supercruise capability also means the Raptor can engage and disengage at will.

 

This works to ways: from the perspective of a Raptor, the bandit is operating in a confined space. This makes him easier to track. I imagine it this way:

 

Suppose you're in the midst of a basket game. At any one moment, there will be players you have no view of, you do not have the SA to see their position.

 

Suppose you could dash away to a viewpoint at a distance: then you easily see them together on the field. I guess it is the same with the Raptor. There are ten bandits; you shoot five and loose awareness of the others; you disengage, go far out and see them again. THEY are in fact still grouped, since they travel at a much lesser speed. It was the best Phantom tactics against Mig-17's.

[TucksonSonny]

Heres something I found:

http://semperapollo.com/Media/Video/Aviation/AC2006/F-22A_AC06.mpg

http://semperapollo.com/Quickstart/VideoLib/Langley2006/Raptor.mpg

 

Its similar to one posted here (same airshow I beleive) but with better closups and overall quality.

 

Tones more at:

http://semperapollo.com/

 

About the video:

I hope for that raptor that it is very very very stealthy

because if not, it will be not more than meat for the su-35!

I have the impression that if that rappy is not on full AB it can’t do anything!

Pilatoss, What was your point again?:megalol:

[D-Scythe]

About the video:

I hope for that raptor that it is very very very stealthy

because if not, it will be not more than meat for the su-35!

I have the impression that if that rappy is not on full AB it can’t do anything!

Pilatoss, What was your point again?:megalol:

 

About the Su-35...I hope it has a good ejection seat. Cause that fat bird is a sitting duck to the F-22. I have the impression that if it's not engaged in a slow-speed dogfight, it's basically a heavy lump of metal with a "AMRAAM me" sign taped onto its tail-pipe :megalol:

[Gripes]

Just an idea, but would the F-22 not be more effective with a TWS-enabled SAHR missile?

 

- it can fire a missile without even been detected yet by the enemies fighter radar

- in TWS, the bandit does not get a launch warning

 

- when the Amraam missile's seeker locks, however, you get a warning (agreed a little late, but maybe just enough to to a mighty last-minute Mig29OVT manoever)

 

- suppose now the missile is not an amraam but a Sparrow-like SAHR missile.

 

===> then you would get NO warning whatsoever?

 

 

I don`t think the raptor`s target will get any spike on his/hers:) RWR

until the "shooter" raptor is well within no escape range (if the shooter

was using his radar to find targets and the big "22":megalol: showed up on

targets RWR... - although raptor`s radar is another story!... heck, I

wish I knew more)

Anyways, the sequence of events for the shooter will be quick: from

D/L to radar on with target aquired... fox3... end of story

 

That`s right TucsonSonny... even without the burners:megalol:

[GGTharos]

About the video:

 

I hope for that raptor that it is very very very stealthy

because if not, it will be not more than meat for the su-35!

 

I have the impression that if that rappy is not on full AB it can’t do anything!

 

Pilatoss, What was your point again?:megalol:

 

 

Are you saying that flankers don't show off their slow speed controllability in the vertical? Or zero speed .... no?

[Pilotasso]

yeah, they take off, cruise, fight, egress, land all making consecutive cobras. :D

[Guest IguanaKing]

Hehe...so now that its not a Russian aircraft doing low/zero speed maneuvers, that makes it vulnerable in combat. Ain't it funny how that works? :D

[hitman]

This convo would have Mikhail Gorbachev and Ronald RayGun rolling in their graves.

[Guest Cali]

Something for you guys to chew on http://www.f-16.net/news_article1916.html

[nscode]

Ummm yeees... did they say how it done against MiG-28??? ... you know, the one that does bad in -G ;)

[rattler]

Nice Article

 

I don't know why they mention the Ef-2000 typhoon, they have never tried to fly against it. From what I have read it will fly right along side f-22. Now find real stats that prove me wrong. What I have seen so far is that they are on par, for speed and not having to use afterburner to do it. F-22 will out perform any A/C that is not considered next generation A/C, that you don't have to sell me on but please don't through it in with an A/C with next generation technology. It would only be speculation. The EuroFighter would probably do the same to those A/C as the F-22. It will be some time before we see an F-22 and Eurofighter faceoff, if we ever see it. I would really like to see it though. You can make any A/C look good, depends on what you put it up against. F-16 and F-18 against equal or slightly less equal will kick ass. We can't get equal on the F-22 vs ef-2000 because it has never happened yet even in simulation. So lets let it lie till we see something. Talk on with what we know not what we don't know. YES I like the EF-2000 also the F-22 IMHO both are very worthwhile A/C. Which one has the edge, right now only speculation.