F-22 Raptor "sucks"

[D-Scythe]

YES I like the EF-2000 also the F-22 IMHO both are very worthwhile A/C. Which one has the edge, right now only speculation.

 

You have *got* to be kidding me.

[Guest Cali]

You have *got* to be kidding me.

 

LMAO my thoughts exactly :megalol:

[Anytime]

Don't laugh too hard :megalol:

 

Have a look at the range of the meteor, I'rd rather be sitting back socking up the picture and lobbing them over the boarder ;)

 

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2005/05/meteor-missile-will-make-changes-to-accommodate-f35/index.php

LMAO my thoughts exactly :megalol:

[tflash]

Now serious again: what boggles me a bit is why the F-22 has sidewinders?

F-15C's mostly fly with a full complement of Amraams, even F/A-18's do often not any longer sport a sidewinder and just carry one or two amraams for self-defense. F-16's over Kosovo already where loaded mainly with Amraam. And yet, the BVR champion F-22 sports two relatively outdated AIM-9M's, and what is even worse, in bays that cannot carry an Amraam-sized weapon.

 

Was this a design mistake so many years ago, when they didn't knew how well the Amraam would fare, even as a shorter range weapon?

[GGTharos]

It isn't a design mistake of any kind. The sidewinder gives you quiet kill capacity in its AIM-9M form, and in the 9X form, an excellent dogfighting missile.

 

The F22 may still encounter cases where it is required to VID its target. In those cases, the 9X is much, -much- more maneuverable and appropriate to use rather than AMRAAM.

[GGTharos]

Don't laugh too hard :megalol:

 

Have a look at the range of the meteor, I'rd rather be sitting back socking up the picture and lobbing them over the boarder ;)

 

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2005/05/meteor-missile-will-make-changes-to-accommodate-f35/index.php

 

Have you seen the range of the new AMRAAM? ... (it outranges your radar's ability to see the raptor?...)

[Pilotasso]

If all planes become stealthy BVR, like the way 4rth Gen aircraft apear to go, then it wont matter how long ranged your missiles are. By the time you you get the blip on radar you will be likely to be capable of launching either the AMRAAM or the meteor anyway.

[rattler]

You have *got* to be kidding me.

Show me stats that prove me wrong,not your reply to my post. I read and I watch Related programs. Just show me I'm wrong. If unable then wait till you can

[GGTharos]

The Raptor is far slteathier than the Typhoon.

 

That's the edge right there. It also carries more fuel and has greater range.

 

Next?

[wsoul2k]

Show me stats that prove me wrong,not your reply to my post. I read and I watch Related programs. Just show me I'm wrong. If unable then wait till you can

 

rattler the typhoon was not designed to be an stealth aircrafth

 

it has stealth caracteristics in the FRONTAL aspect only

 

The F-22 was planned since the begin TO BE stealth in all angles not only in frontal engagements

 

You ask for stats but you know THIS stats are confidencial....but the information the typhoon is not STEALTH is avaliable over the net

[TucksonSonny]

The Raptor is far slteathier than the Typhoon.

 

That's the edge right there. It also carries more fuel and has greater range.

 

Next?

 

Eurofighter has greater load for half of the price! ;)

Eurofighter swingroles Configurations:

Air superiority:

6 x BVRAAM

6 x ASRAAM

2 x 1500 litre fuel tank

1 x 1000 litre fuel tank

Air interdiction:

2 x Stand-Off Missiles

2 x Alarm

4 x AMRAAM

2 x ASRAAM

2 x 1500 litre fuel tank

1 x 1000 litre fuel tank

Supression of enemy air defences:

6 x Alarm

4 x AMRAAM

2 x ASRAAM

1 x 1000 litre fuel tank

Close air support:

18 x Brimstone

4 x AMRAAM

2 x ASRAAM

1 x 1000 litre fuel tank

Maritime attack:

4 Penguin

4 x AMRAAM

2 x ASRAAM

2x 1500 litre fuel tank

1 x 1000 litre fuel tank

[GGTharos]

Yep, but the Raptor doesn't need to be multirole - it's /ALL/ air dominance.

 

Perhaps people don't understand the concept.

 

Plane that's built to be good at one thing: It tends to be REALLY good at it

 

Plane that's built to do many things: Jack of all trades, master of none.

[TucksonSonny]

Plane that's built to do many things: Jack of all trades, master of none.

 

These are the planes that we need to go to war! Especially wars of today and within next 10 year…

[Pilotasso]

The raptor does and will carry more AG ordenance. Its a question of time.

[GGTharos]

Yep, but its primary design was not that of a bomb truck, Pilotasso. There are no compromises for it.

 

TucksonSonny, you're quite right about that - but that's why there's the F-35 :) To do work after F-22 smacks down anything that dares come up :)

[tflash]

It isn't a design mistake of any kind. The sidewinder gives you quiet kill capacity in its AIM-9M form, and in the 9X form, an excellent dogfighting missile.

 

The F22 may still encounter cases where it is required to VID its target. In those cases, the 9X is much, -much- more maneuverable and appropriate to use rather than AMRAAM.

 

I'm not convinced this is a sufficient explanation. These situations should be very rare and limited, considering the whole setup of the Raptor: why risk a WVR situation where your stealth advantage is gone just to use a missile that is at best on par with what the adversary could field? You scenario is only valid to ID an airliner.

 

On top of this, the F-22 has no interesting avionics at all to maximize an IR missile. It has no IRST and the AIM-9L/X have no two way datalink.

 

In fact, while the F-22 makes the very most of the Amraam, beyond the capabilities of any competition, it is at best at par with an Eurofighter or Mig-29OVT if it would use IR-missiles. I'm confident it won't.

 

Sacrificing two bays that take a lot of space and cannot be used for something more pertinent is a pitty. I believe that if these bays where big enough to carry an Amraam, the F-22 would have a standard fit of 8 Amraams.

 

In the original plans the F-22 was going to have an IRST; I guess these somewhat unnecessary small bays stem from that time.

 

see e.g. this discussion: http://yarchive.net/mil/f22.html

[rattler]

rattler the typhoon was not designed to be an stealth aircrafth

 

it has stealth caracteristics in the FRONTAL aspect only

 

The F-22 was planned since the begin TO BE stealth in all angles not only in frontal engagements

 

You ask for stats but you know THIS stats are confidencial....but the information the typhoon is not STEALTH is avaliable over the net

"The use of Stealth technology is incorporated throughout the aircraft’s basic design. The design of the Eurofighter Typhoon has not sacrificed flexibility of weapon carriage, maneuverability or performance to produce an inflexible stealth aircraft but it does contain a comprehensive suite of stealth features. Designing a fighter aircraft for stealth alone means making compromises to its aerodynamic and manoeuvre performance as well as restricting the number of weapons that aircraft can carry. The carriage of weapons on conventional under-wing pylons negates the stealth design. Although not of the classic angular, zigzag edged shape usually associated with stealth designs, Eurofighter Typhoon’s shape balances aerodynamic requirements, such as low drag and high lift, with the need to minimise reflected radar energy in all directions, producing a signature which is smaller than that of all other fighter aircraft currently in production. "

 

Now that's interesting. You said browse the net well this is from the Manufacturers of the Ef-2000. Plus it has been flown at Mach 2.0. I said the f-22 has technology and not saying that it does'nt have further range an fuel capacity but the Eurofighter has some technology to, that will combat what the F-22 can throw at it. Some nice videos on the net too. Cheers.

[GGTharos]

Sorry man, but you're not reading half the material that's out there.

The EF-2000 stealth features are great, but they're not anywhere near the F-22's stealth. The 22 WILL see it first and it WILL fire first.

 

Furtermore, The F-22's greater stealth gives it good protection against radar guided missiles -simply- because its stealth.

 

The two aircraft do -not- compare in this aspect. The EF-2000 has had 'no compromises' for payload and so on. The F-22 compromized -everything- in favor of two things:

1) Stealth

2) Being the best air dominance fighter in the world

 

The EF-2000 is great, but it's not the best air dominance fighter in the world ;)

[GGTharos]

I'm not convinced this is a sufficient explanation. These situations should be very rare and limited, considering the whole setup of the Raptor: why risk a WVR situation where your stealth advantage is gone just to use a missile that is at best on par with what the adversary could field? You scenario is only valid to ID an airliner.

 

Experience disctates that this is a VERY valid scenario. It happened in the most recent air wars, and had little to do with airliners.

 

On top of this, the F-22 has no interesting avionics at all to maximize an IR missile. It has no IRST and the AIM-9L/X have no two way datalink.

 

What do you need an IRST for when you have a helmet mounted display capable of putting that missile on target at 90deg OBA?

And why would you need a datalink? It's a missile for use -specifically- in turning fights.

 

In fact, while the F-22 makes the very most of the Amraam, beyond the capabilities of any competition, it is at best at par with an Eurofighter or Mig-29OVT if it would use IR-missiles. I'm confident it won't.

 

You can stack aircraft such as to escape attack if not detection and get close. It's certainly possible, but not necessarily easy. THe Raptor pilot must be equipped to handle this scenario, and the AIM-9X is there to fill this gap. The thrust vectoring capabilities and enormous TWR, as well as IR stealthing gives it a good fighting chance against any other aircraft.

 

Sacrificing two bays that take a lot of space and cannot be used for something more pertinent is a pitty. I believe that if these bays where big enough to carry an Amraam, the F-22 would have a standard fit of 8 Amraams.

 

In the original plans the F-22 was going to have an IRST; I guess these somewhat unnecessary small bays stem from that time.

 

see e.g. this discussion: http://yarchive.net/mil/f22.html

 

 

Or perhaps the guys who designed this know better? ;)

Your link seems to point to this.

 

Recall that the gun was at some point designed out because of BVR missiles. This was later regretted.

[wsoul2k]

Sorry man, but you're not reading half the material that's out there.

The EF-2000 stealth features are great, but they're not anywhere near the F-22's stealth. The 22 WILL see it first and it WILL fire first.

 

Furtermore, The F-22's greater stealth gives it good protection against radar guided missiles -simply- because its stealth.

 

The two aircraft do -not- compare in this aspect. The EF-2000 has had 'no compromises' for payload and so on. The F-22 compromized -everything- in favor of two things:

1) Stealth

2) Being the best air dominance fighter in the world

 

The EF-2000 is great, but it's not the best air dominance fighter in the world ;)

 

 

You got my point :thumbup: tks

[hitman]

And the EF-2k doesnt have plans developed as a high altitude precision strike aircraft.

 

[rattler]

Sorry man, but you're not reading half the material that's out there.

The EF-2000 stealth features are great, but they're not anywhere near the F-22's stealth. The 22 WILL see it first and it WILL fire first.

 

Furtermore, The F-22's greater stealth gives it good protection against radar guided missiles -simply- because its stealth.

 

The two aircraft do -not- compare in this aspect. The EF-2000 has had 'no compromises' for payload and so on. The F-22 compromized -everything- in favor of two things:

1) Stealth

2) Being the best air dominance fighter in the world

 

The EF-2000 is great, but it's not the best air dominance fighter in the world ;)

well give me a chance to read it, there is a lot and a lot that do not quite share your points. One thing is that the Ef-2000 will find the F-22 with infa red heat sensors. It has already been stated that the F-22 especially at supersonic speed gives of heat off its surface, whick is quite a surface. It is not a small A/C. Yes I agree with you the F-22 is probably one of the best A/C out there today. I just don't like it when the Ef-2000 is compared to todays A/C, it is a New technology fighter. If it was'nt then why did they build it. It is evolving every day with new types of missels, sensors and avionics just as the F-22 is evolving as we speak. These A/C and ones being built with our new technology on board are the fighters and multirole fighters of the next 10 years and will probably evolve beyond even what we can imagine. I just don't think it reasonable to lump the EF-2000 in with the fighters of today. I will support and defend the Typhoon, Raptor or any A/C with todays modern technology as the best there is to offer at this time.

[GGTharos]

well give me a chance to read it, there is a lot and a lot that do not quite share your points. One thing is that the Ef-2000 will find the F-22 with infa red heat sensors. It has already been stated that the F-22 especially at supersonic speed gives of heat off its surface, whick is quite a surface. It is not a small A/C.

 

It's funny how 'that thing' keeps getting stated, but is not well understood. Supersonic flight will increase skin friction, but the signature won't be anywhere near that of an afterburning aircraft. Head on, detection range is pretty mediuchre compared to a radar and the F-22 -still- has IR stealthing.

The IR sensor is -not- 'the' solution to the F-22! IRSTs existed before the F-22 concept itself. You'd think they thought about it ;)

 

 

Yes I agree with you the F-22 is probably one of the best A/C out there today.

 

The best. Nothing up there can touch it for air dominance.

 

I just don't like it when the Ef-2000 is compared to todays A/C, it is a New technology fighter. If it was'nt then why did they build it.

 

The built it for their own needs. They (the EU) needed a fighter that exhibited certain characteristics for a certain cost. They did -not- build a competitor to the F-22. They built a competitor to the Su-27, MiG-29 and their modern variants, as well as modern F-16 versions.

Their budget did not allow for something that would be truly on par with the F-22. It's a good step above existing aircraft, but the F-22 stands alone in Air Dominance right now.

 

It is evolving every day with new types of missels, sensors and avionics just as the F-22 is evolving as we speak.

 

Unless you know how to overcome the laws of physics, today's science does really permit fighter-based sensors to detect and track stealth aircraft beyond a certain (fairly short) range.

 

These A/C and ones being built with our new technology on board are the fighters and multirole fighters of the next 10 years and will probably evolve beyond even what we can imagine. I just don't think it reasonable to lump the EF-2000 in with the fighters of today. I will support and defend the Typhoon, Raptor or any A/C with todays modern technology as the best there is to offer at this time.

 

The Typhoon is 'lumped' together with such things as the Rafale, for example.

 

It is a 4.5 gen aircraft. The F-22 is a 5th gen aircraft. The F-22 stands alone in its class right now.

[BladeLWS]

FYI the Raptor has provisions for a IRST and a side mounted phased array radar if the Air Force ever decided it would need it.

[leafer]

Wow. I read the whole thread and I got the impression that rattler really, really like EF2000. Really likes it. A lot.

 

:D