AP/SAS and PIO

[Flagrum]

I have a hard time controlling the helo, especially at take off. Agile this, nimble that, but if a displacement of milimeters of the cyclic (in the cockpit!) leads to rapid accelleration on the tarmack even before the skids leave the ground, there is a problem ...

 

After some dozend death, instant and within half a minute, I now start to suspect a problem with ... well, the SAS and/or AP. But I am not sure if that problem originates from the module ... or from me. :o)

 

So, first question: SAS = AP, correct? If all channels and the master switch at the AP panel are enabled (i.e. as it is when i start "from parking hot"), there should be some stabilisation for all axes, right? To me it feels as if there is none. It makes no difference for me if the AP (master switch or cyclic button) is enabled or not.

 

I also noted that the three channel gauges always stay centered (when AP is enabled). The needles do not move - so the AP is not feeding any input? Those needles only become active when I enable the auto-hover.

 

Sooo, AP is bugged?

 

Second question: if (IF!) i get into the air and get some speed - flying somewhat stable - and enable the AP mode "ALT" or "SPEED", they seem to function (got not too many chances to test this, yet, though). But again: no AP channel needles move?

 

And third question/observation: auto-hover disconnects the joystick from the cyclic - joystick inputs are ignored, the in-game stick does not move. Why? And also: if I disable the AP now, the helo starts to drift, etc., but I still can not re-gain control over the cyclic unless I explicitely disable auto-hover. Is that intentional?

[audax]

Auto hover disconnects the joystick from the cyclic because the joystick then controls the camera.

[dotChuckles]

I concur, something feels very strange about what the SAS is doing. It's almost like it's multiplying oscillation rather then damping it.

[nomdeplume]

And also: if I disable the AP now, the helo starts to drift, etc., but I still can not re-gain control over the cyclic unless I explicitely disable auto-hover. Is that intentional?

Seems there's an "auto cyclic control" which is enabled by default, C to disable.

[fjacobsen]

Seems there's an "auto cyclic control" which is enabled by default, C to disable.

 

C is not for cyclic but for "auto collective"

[nomdeplume]

Oops yes. Collective. :)

[HawkDCS]

Something I dont get about the AP is how it works.

 

If I am flying and switch it to ALT or Speed Hold it works to a point it seems. It seems to run fine for first go but if you turn it off then try and use it again it does nothing for me. It also seems once you get going fast enough with high power settings it doesn't have enough trim to control the aircraft. Very strange.

 

I will have it in ALT mode but will still be climbing quite a bit. It seems to come down to a lower climb rate but doesnt hold the alt. The speed setting seems to work on first try then after that you can flip the switch all day and nothing happens.

[Flagrum]

Something I dont get about the AP is how it works.

 

If I am flying and switch it to ALT or Speed Hold it works to a point it seems. It seems to run fine for first go but if you turn it off then try and use it again it does nothing for me. It also seems once you get going fast enough with high power settings it doesn't have enough trim to control the aircraft. Very strange.

 

I will have it in ALT mode but will still be climbing quite a bit. It seems to come down to a lower climb rate but doesnt hold the alt. The speed setting seems to work on first try then after that you can flip the switch all day and nothing happens.

The AP Speed hold mode killed me (at least!) once. I was reducing altitude while in Speed hold mode and when I tried to level the aircraft at my desired altitude, the AP kept the nose down - as my pulling on the cyclic would have bled my air speed ... so the AP flew me - with nice constant speed - into the ground ...

[G97_BoKeRoN]

I have a hard time controlling the helo, especially at take off. Agile this, nimble that, but if a displacement of milimeters of the cyclic (in the cockpit!) leads to rapid accelleration on the tarmack even before the skids leave the ground, there is a problem ...

 

 

That's my main problem right now. Only workaround against tramack skiing seems to be letting the chopper roll a bit to the left when you have enough collective.

[Kelevra9987]

On Take off I push around half way the right rudder and raise the Collective bit after bit. That way I take off smoothly with some forward slip. :)

[Yurgon]

I have a hard time controlling the helo, especially at take off. Agile this, nimble that, but if a displacement of milimeters of the cyclic (in the cockpit!) leads to rapid accelleration on the tarmack even before the skids leave the ground, there is a problem ...

 

Unlike the Huey, the Gazelle doesn't seem to like taking off into a hover.

 

My experience so far is that when I leave the cyclic alone, kick enough right pedal to keep more or less on course, and then apply enough collective, it'll take me into a gentle climb with some forward speed. At that point, a few meters above the ground, I can either take it back to a hover or accelerate through ETL.

 

But when I try to take off into a hover with just enough collective to get light on the skids, the chopper either skids forward anyway, or bounces nose high and the tail boom bumps into the ground.

 

Since I have absolutely no information on the real thing, I can't say whether it's supposed to be like that, or if the FM requires a bit of fine tuning, or if I simply do it wrong - haven't looked at the manual yet, too much fun bouncing through the air and trying to get things under control. :D

 

As to your SAS questions, sorry, no clue.

[pittlebelge]

Like with the huey, takeoff gets easier with a bit of trim. But since I don't hav the feel for it yet, I use the china-hat trim instead of the force trim. I give it 3 or 4 tap back and one tap right.

 

Aint perfect but well practice will fine tune it.

[Flagrum]

Perhaps someone can make a video demonstrating the difference in the helo's response either with AP master on and off? I still fail to notice any difference in the aircraft's behaviour.

[wolle]

I also don't notice any different between SAS on/off. Maybe the SAS has not yet been implemented (all that flipping the on switch does atm is to bring the control indicators from a fully deflected to a zero deflection position, but it remains at zero deflection no matter how you move, IIRC). It seems to me that SAS is not yet implemented., and I think once this is implemented it might go a long way towards making this chopper controllable...

[Pocket Sized]

There is definitely some sort of SAS that is on 100% of the time.

 

If you start and do only the bare essentials to get the rotor spun up the craft will still level itself when the cyclic is centered.

[Ramrod_45]

Experiencing same problems as mentioned above. Lifting off to a hover seems impossible. With cyclic centred the aircraft slides forward as the collective is applied. To correct this I apply some back cyclic and right pedal and when the collective is raised the aircraft sticks to the tarmac until the nose abruptly lifts and the tailboom hits the deck. I also have my suspicions about the AP.

I accept this may be poor flying skills and also its early days for the module.

On the whole I think this will be a great module in the near future.

Well done the people at Polychop.

[Rangi]

The AP makes a huge difference, if you just let her stabilise herself, it's reasonably easy to fly. At first I had the tendency to over correct which turns into PIO quickly. If you are on top of the torque she flys herself pretty well, it's a very different kind of flying to the Huey. I use warthog with a 10cm extension and 90‰ saturation. Like all virtual flying it's mostly practice, practice, practice.

[Rogue Trooper]

Like with the huey, takeoff gets easier with a bit of trim. But since I don't hav the feel for it yet, I use the china-hat trim instead of the force trim. I give it 3 or 4 tap back and one tap right.

 

Aint perfect but well practice will fine tune it.

 

This Trim is where I also found it more stable for Hover. I also find a quick and SMALL pull back on the stick then re-center, kills the forward motion at takeoff.

 

I think I blew the tail rotor on take off when I had the "yaw AP" off.. I think, I was too busy crashing to confirm this. :D

[Flamin_Squirrel]

My experience so far is that when I leave the cyclic alone, kick enough right pedal to keep more or less on course, and then apply enough collective, it'll take me into a gentle climb with some forward speed. At that point, a few meters above the ground, I can either take it back to a hover or accelerate through ETL.

 

Experiencing same problems as mentioned above. Lifting off to a hover seems impossible. With cyclic centred the aircraft slides forward as the collective is applied.

 

I agree with Rogue Trooper; the trick is to smoothly apply collective with the stick centred. As you lift, a quick rearward check on the stick to prevent forward drift then back to centre.

 

I've attached a short track; hopefully it'll help someone, or at least show it can be done.

gazelle.trk

[Flagrum]

What I found out now: the SAS does something - but I am not sure what.

 

I mentioned that I fail to see any movement of the AP channeld gauge needles and thought, the SAS would not add any input to the respective channels. This is not true, the needles actually do move.

 

The needles move when you deflect the controls for the respective channel. It looks as if the SAS tries to smooth out the input somehow/somewhat.

 

The thing is, with the tiny amount of input needed, the needles also just move a tiiiiny amount - barely observable with all the shaking and ratteling. They usually move only in the range of the width of the needle itself!

 

I was only able to notice this when I experimented with the Options Easy Mode where more pronounced inputs are possible and thus the needles move more.

 

This makes me wonder if the SAS is working correctly: shouldn't the SAS do more than some slight filtering of the pilot inputs? I.e. take into account the actual attitude of the helo (or what are all those gyros for that we have to power up?)?

 

 

PS: I'd like to have a bug subforum, not just a huge sticky thread...:cry:

[wolle]

The AP makes a huge difference, if you just let her stabilise herself, it's reasonably easy to fly. At first I had the tendency to over correct which turns into PIO quickly. If you are on top of the torque she flys herself pretty well, it's a very different kind of flying to the Huey. I use warthog with a 10cm extension and 90‰ saturation. Like all virtual flying it's mostly practice, practice, practice.

 

The problem is that it will stabilize itself even when the AP is turned off! I fail to notice any difference between flying with it or with the AP turned off. In both cases it will right itself as soon as you let go off the stick. This seems to imply that this is a property of the Gazelle aerodynamics itself, or there is a bug that the AP is always on, even though the switch says it's off.